[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by Arianeira

20 Lands actually is pretty important against Delver match ups where you have to contend with tax counters like Daze and Spell Pierce along with Stifle and Wasteland. You also want enough fetch lands to have enough Deathrite Shaman food.

I am considering a second Reclamation Sage in the sideboard. There are lots of things it deals with and a second one is nice if the first one dies or you don't draw a Wirewood.

Also considering running a Worldspine Wurm sideboard for fair match ups that don't run Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile.

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I started with a 2nd sage and then found myself targeting things I could have with abrupt decay. So I'm a bit more strict with my decay usage and I gain a sideboard slot.

I hate worldspine wurm. If I expect sneak and show, I'm not running elves I'm going to play death and taxes. And as for non-white fair matchups, which would I want it? Shardless/RUG/Jund each have a very hard time with Progenitus as it is... so I guess I'm playing around the Toxic Deluge for 10 or the sac effect on a 1 creature board? But I'm not playing around Jace or Submerge? Not worth a slot for me.

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@Tammit67
I like what you are doing with listing match ups and board plans. I have done board plans for most match ups I play I will add more explanations to them as well. My board is simialr to yours as I run a blue splash for Swan Song but I run both Scavenging Ooze and Ruric Thar main deck a result of having several Burn, Dredge and Storm in my local meta. Our local Death and Taxes player runs 3 Aven Mindcensor main deck so have to be very careful about casting Green Sun's Zenith or Natural Order. Needle/Null Rod is pretty key against Death and Taxes to turn off their Vial so they have to play fair and cast their creatures so they aren't porting your land and it deals with Jitte which is bad news. I agree storm is a bad match up. Hopefully you can slow them down with discard or swan song to natural order for Ruric Thar is my plan in that match up but you are a turn slower then them usually and they have their own discard.

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I had both of them main but WRP has been pretty much what I was hoping Ooze would be: an ever-loving beating should I ever untap with it. And unlike ooze, I often get to untap with it, for the not so minor cost of (champion and +2 mana). With WRP main and the blue splash in board, I didn't want to fit a Tiaga into the deck to make Ruric Thar easier. How do you manage it?

If you have several burn, dredge, storm in local meta, why play elves? Certainly something else would be more effective than running into a bunch of bad matchups locally (burn is whatever, I just hate the two enchantment morons they run main + board)

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Originally Posted by Arianeira

@AznSeal
How has Sylvan Library been for you? Seems like it would be good in matches where the games go longer like Delver or Miracles. Also how you been liking Choke? Losset's Miracle build I think has Mystic Gate, 2 Plains, a Mountain and 2 Karakas that Choke doesn't lock down but it seems really good.

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I thought I would chime in since I've been playing with Sylvan Library for forever. I really like it a lot because it nets card with the least amount of set up. So in matchups where we can develop our mana to be able to leverage our cards, we can pull ahead on cards super duper easy. I usually have it for midrangey matchups where their plan is to fight us over cards with mass removal rather than put our mana or life total under threat. So stoneforge mystic decks, BUG flavoured midrange decks and miracles.

I usually don't bring it in against delver because our cards are good enough already, I usually find those matches are about mana development so I just prefer to keep land heavier hands. Our top end is more powerful now with WRP and scooze adding an extra dimension of lethality rather than setup to GSZ. You can also NO for a big idiot if you have the hydra or they don't have submerge.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

I started with a 2nd sage and then found myself targeting things I could have with abrupt decay. So I'm a bit more strict with my decay usage and I gain a sideboard slot.

I had both of them main but WRP has been pretty much what I was hoping Ooze would be: an ever-loving beating should I ever untap with it. And unlike ooze, I often get to untap with it, for the not so minor cost of (champion and +2 mana). With WRP main and the blue splash in board, I didn't want to fit a Tiaga into the deck to make Ruric Thar easier. How do you manage it?

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It's not necessarily a problem - you do gain a 2/1 on the board and can more freely go to town with Symbiote.

For me, it's easy: I just don't play the Taiga. The 2 Birchlore build especially has so many incidental sources of red for the random hardcast Ruric that it's just not an issue most of the time. And the rest of the time you're NOing/GSZing for him anyway.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

I hate worldspine wurm. If I expect sneak and show, I'm not running elves I'm going to play death and taxes.

If you have several burn, dredge, storm in local meta, why play elves? Certainly something else would be more effective than running into a bunch of bad matchups locally (burn is whatever, I just hate the two enchantment morons they run main + board)

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Not everyone can do that because of the financial commitment. I could, but I don't want to invest a crapton of money into another deck. In that case the one option that's left is to tough it out and try to concoct sideboarding/playstyle innovations that help bring the percentages closer to even.

/edit: I forgot to sign up for the Daily! :-O We are playing Vintage BUG Fish instead. Feel free to tune in! :-)

Hi Guys, I am playing in the SCG open on Sunday and I wanted some help on the side board

I am currently running this Sideboard (i have the 4th NO & a Savenging Ooze Main)

1 Null Rod
4 Thoughtseize
2 Swan Song
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Libary
1 Progenitus

I am thinking about cutting Progenitus for another null rod/needle or swan song... Wanted to get your thoughts...

Progenitus is good against Delver, D&T and ok in S&S... but I think D&T is prepared with Council's Judgment now...

thanks in advance for your input

This is my current list with the boarding plan for most match ups I have played a few times. Will write up individual match up analysis as I find the time. I did give the board plans and brief strategies for boarding though.

Added Wren's Run Packmaster and switched out the Llanowar Elves for a second Birchlore. I tried the Taiga for like a week and went back to the 9th fetch because I used it to cast Ruric a total of once and had like 5 times where I wished it was another fetch for Deathrite food.

Unfortunately at 61 cards since I just added Packmaster to try it out online so not sure what to cut. Don't like going to 19 land and the other option is to move Ruric Thar to the board and take out Mindbreak Trap. Not sure I like that one either.

Also considering just cutting Mindbreak Trap from the board since I don't really use it that much just against Storm/Belcher/Oops all spells and its a one of. Storm tends to Duress you if possible so Trap isn't as good. Could put a Sylvan Library or Null Rod or something else. Everything else in my board gets quite a bit of use as you see from the board plans.

Creatures (29)
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Reclaimation Sage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Wren's Run Packmaster


Spells (11)
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

Lands (20)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Wooded Foothills


Sideboard (15)
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Mindbreak Trap -> Sylvan Library?? or Null Rod.
1 Natural Order
2 Pithing Needle
1 Progenitus
3 Swan Song
4 Thoughtseize


Run Ruric Thar main if expecting combo, Progenitus if expecting more fair decks with removal. Local meta has a decent amount of combo and burn though.

I like main deck Scavenging Ooze because it is good vs grave yard decks and is a decent back up play to Green Sun's Zenith for if your board gets wiped.

Sideboarding plans.
BUG Delver
+3 Abrupt Decay +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Natural Order, +1 Progenitus,
-2 Heritage Druid, -2 Nettle Sentinel, -1 Reclamation Sage -1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -1 Ruric Thar, -1 Glimpse of Nature
Abrupt Decay to kill annoying things like Grafdigger's Cage, or Engineered Plague or sometimes Delvers.
Thoughtseize hard counters like Force or blow out spells like Toxic Deluge, Golgari Charm.
Progenitus plan is the way to go since they can kill enough of your elves so that hoofing doesn't quite get there and Ruric Thar must attack so often dies to multi blocks so isn't worth it.

Belcher
+4 Thoughtseize, +3 Swan Song, +1 mindbreak Trap +1 Natural Order, +2 Pithing Needle
-1 Craterhoof behemoth, -1 dryad arbor, -2 Elvish Visionary, -3 Wirewood Symbiote, -1 Nettle Sentinel, -1 Glimpse of Nature, -1 Scavenging Ooze, -1 heritage Druid.
Plan is to hoof them or just get Ruric. Bring in all the disruption. hopefully they don't kill you turn 1.

Burn
+3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Natural Order
-1 Elvish Visionary, -1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -1 Heritage Druid, -1 Glimpse of Nature
You want Abrupt Decay to kill Eidolon and Sulfuric Vortex. Extra Natural Order since Natural Order for Hoof or Ruric Thar asap to race.

Death and Taxes
+3 Abrupt Decay +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Natural Order, +1 Progenitus
-2 Heritage Druid, -2 Nettle Sentinel, -2 Glimpse of Nature, -1 Ruric Thar
Needle to name Vial, Jitte, Mother of Runs protecting Mindcensor, Wasteland or Port depending on the situation.
Natural Order for Progenitus usually wins. Have to watch out for Aven Mindcensor when casting Natural Order or Green Sun's Zenith so cast them when they do not have 3 mana or a Vial on 3 available.

Dredge
+3 Thoughtseize
-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Elvish Visionary, -1 Ruric Thar
Its a race, try and thoughtseize their Careful Study, Breakthrough to slow them down so you can hoof them before they kill you.

Elf mirror
+4 Thoughtseize, +2 Swan Song
-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Ruric Thar, -2 Elvish Visionary, -1 Wirewood Symbiote, -1 Scavenging Ooze
This is all who can hoof first so pull out the slow things you don't need. Thoughtseize and Swan Song for their Natural Order.

Goblins
On the Draw
+2 Pithing Needle
-1 Ruric Thar, THe Unbowed, -1 Heritage Druid
On the Play
+3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Pithing Needle
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, -1 Heritage Druid, -1 Glimpse of Nature, -1 Nettle Sentinel,
Needle for Vial. Might be worth bringing in Abrupt Decay on the play since you can use it to kill Lackey before it connects.


Jund
+3 Abrupt Decay +1 Natural Order +1 Progenitus,
-2 Heritage Druid -1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Ruric Thar, -1 Craterhoof Behemoth
You need Abrupt Decay to kill Dark Confidant so they don't draw too much discard. Progenitus is the way to go since they don't have too many ways of dealing with it other then Liliana if its your only creature.



Merfolk
+2 Pithing Needle
-1 Ruric Thar, The Unbowed
-1 Heritage Druid
Needle to name Vial or if they don't have Vial name Mutavault. Naming Vial slows them down by a couple turns which enables you to win before they can.


Miracles
In 3 Abrupt Decay, 2 Pithing Needle, 3 Swan Song, +1 Progenitus, +2 Thoughtseize
Out -2 Heritage Druid, -2 Glimpse of Nature, -2 Nettle Sentinel, -1 Craterhoof, -2 Quiron Ranger -1 Elvish Visionary, -1 Ruric Thar,
This is the worst match up for Elves with counters and sweepers. Don't commit too much to the board because of Terminus. Needle on Top helps quite a bit. You have Abrupt Decay/Swan Song for Counter Balance and Swan Song for Terminus. Progenitus plan is better then hoof because they need Terminus or Supreme Verdict to get rid of it.

Might actually revamp how I board in this match up and take out all the Natural Orders and go with the full number of Thoughtseize since I saw Julian's stream and his 15 card Miracles sideboard.

Maverick
+3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Natural Order, +1 Progenitus
-1 Ruric Thar, -2 Glimpse of Nature, -1 Heritage Druid, -2 Nettle Sentinel
You want Decay to kill their Knights. Progenitus plan because they run Swords.

Omnitell
+4 Thoughtseize, +3 Swan Song, +1 Natural Order
-2 Elivsh Visionary -2 Wirewood Symbiote, -1 Heritage Druid, -1 Nettle Sentinel, -1 Scavenging Ooze
Ruric prevents them from winning unless they bounce him so if you can't hoof for the kill just get Ruric.


Painter
+3 Abrupt Decay +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Pithing Needle,
-1 Ruric Thar,-2 Nettle Sentinel, -1 CratorHoof Behemoth, -2 Heritage Druid, -1 Glimpse of Nature
Disrupt their combo so you can go off faster. Fetch basic forest first to not get blown out by bloodmoon.


Reanimator:
+4 Thoughtseize, +3 Swan song
-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Heritage, -1 Symbiote, -1 Visionary, -1 Wren's Run Packmaster, -1 Arbor, -1 Glimpse
Thoughtseize them and hold up blue mana if you have a Swan Song Hopefully you get get a deathrite out and thoughtseize or Swan Song for their Show and Tell. Try to hoof them before they get an Elesh Norn in play.

RUG Delver
On play same as BUG Delver
On the Draw
+3 Abrupt Decay +3-4 Thoughtseize
-3 Natural Order. -2 Crater hoof Behemoth, -1 Ruric Thar, -1 Reclamation Sage(keep sage if they board in Grafdigger's Cage)
Watch out for Stifle and play around Daze. On the Draw it is really hard to resolve a natural order so don't even try.

Shardless BUG
+3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Natural Order, +1 Progenitus
-1 Birchlore Rangers, -1 Ruric Thar, -1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -2 Heritage Druid, -1 Nettle Sentinel
They don't have a way to kill Progenitus other the Liliana which doesn't work if you have an extra elf to sacrifice so that is your plan afterboard. Cage is bad so you might want the full 3 decays. Thoughtseize to take Golgari charm.


Sneak and Show
+3 Thoughtseize, +3 Swan Song, +2 Pitching Needle
-1 Reclaimation Sage, -1 Ruric Thar, -1 Elvish Visionary, -2 Wirewood Symyote, -1 Heritage Druid, -1 Nettle Sentinel
Thoughtseize their combo peices and Needle Sneak Attack, Swan Song counters both Show and Tell and Sneak Attack along with their counters so is very good.


Storm
+4 Thoughtseize, +3 Swan Song, +1 mindbreak Trap +1 Natural Order
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -3 Elvish Visionary, -3 Wirewood Symbiote, -1 Nettle Sentinel, -1 Glimpse of Nature
Plan is to natural order for Ruric Thar which unless they boarded in bounce to bounce it they can't win. Thoughtseize Swan Song, Mindbreak to stop their combo.


UWR Delver
+3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Natural order, +1 Progenitus
-3 Heritage Druid, -3 Nettle Sentinel, -2 Glimpse of Nature, -1 Craterhoof behemoth
Progenitus Plan again. Needles for Lavamancer and Jitte

@Tammit67
Cutting the Mindbreak Trap in my board so thinking of other options. Thinking I might go with Sylvan Library or a Null Rod.

Casting Ruric isn't to bad with 4 Deathrite and 2 Birchlore. I tried the Taiga for awhile and rather have the 9th fetch for more deathrite food. I usually play some sort of fast combo whatever suits my mood have a whole box of combo decks built but most aren't too good against the lots of delver there is in a larger event like SCG or a GP right now. Elves gets better against Delver but is a turn or two slower then other combo. Also been playing Miracles. Not fun grinding 9-10 rounds though.

I could play Death and Taxes but I don't really like the deck. I do have a version of it built.

@Starfox
I like Sylvan in other decks over long games and decks that don't pressure you so you can pay life to draw its amazing. Will have to try it in place of the Mindbreak Trap.

@Zombie
I tried Taiga didn't like it. I'm actually practicing for Starcity/GP larger events so running Elves again. I could play Death and Taxes but I really don't like the deck rather play Esper Stoneblade.

@Jullian23
Watched your steam like the 15 card sideboard against miracles.

@Duker99
How you fit the 4th Natural Order main? Not running Packmaster?

Not sure I would cut Progenitus, I bring it in against Delver decks, Death and Taxes, Deathblade, Maverick, Shardless BUG. Death and Taxes plays maybe 2 Council's Judgement? I'm more scared of Aven Mindcensor turning off Green Sun's Zenith, Natural Order and fetching for Dryad Arbors. I like Needle more the Null Rod because it comes down turn 1 to turn off Top vs Miracles and you can name Planeswalkers and problem creatures like Grim lavamancer or Izzet staticaster.

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Originally Posted by Arianeira

@Duker99
How you fit the 4th Natural Order main? Not running Packmaster?

Not sure I would cut Progenitus, I bring it in against Delver decks, Death and Taxes, Deathblade, Maverick, Shardless BUG. Death and Taxes plays maybe 2 Council's Judgement? I'm more scared of Aven Mindcensor turning off Green Sun's Zenith, Natural Order and fetching for Dryad Arbors. I like Needle more the Null Rod because it comes down turn 1 to turn off Top vs Miracles and you can name Planeswalkers and problem creatures like Grim lavamancer or Izzet staticaster.

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Creatures (29)
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Reclaimation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Wren's Run Packmaster


Spells (12)
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order

Lands (19)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Wooded Foothills

@Arianeira

I have been trying out 19 lands on MTGO for the past 2 days and if hasn't been an issue but need to test it more. I more often want to have the NO than not in matches. It also helps open up anther spot in the sideboard as well.

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Originally Posted by Arianeira

@Darthobiwan
Let know how that goes with the 2nd Reclamation Sage. I might try that myself.

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I'm glad I had the second Reclamation Sage in my sideboard. It helped me stay in games I was far from close to being in. I ended up 1-3. The 2 of the matches I lost all had Chalice of the Void. I went 45 games in a row with my opponent playing turn 1 Chalice on 1. I was able to win through one of those games thanks to having 2 Sages. I drew one and tutored for the other. Unfortunately for me he followed up with an ensnaring bridge and it took me forever to find wirewood symbiote (8 turns to finally find a GSZ). In that time I was able to make 20 wolves with WRP (I could have made more but it really didn't matter).

Match 1 was against my old nemesis James Hammes and his Nic Fit+Moat deck. (He beat me Match 1 at a Modern PTQ last weekend, I was on Nykthos wave, he was on turn 1 Grafdigger's cage, turn 2 Torpor Orb..)
Game 1 I was able to turn 3 natural order but not enough to kill with Craterhoof so I went with Ruric Thar knowing he has a decent amount of non-creature spells in the deck. Unfortunately for me he had an Academy Rector which was able to get him a Faith's Fetters. He was able win on the back of Thragtusk.
Game 2 I sided in Sage, NO, Discard. I was able to turn 5 NO for Craterhoof.
Game 3 I mulled to 5, he Cabal Therapied my 2 Deathrite shamans. I was left with 1 fetch, 1 Natural Order, 1 Birchlore. Turn 1 I drew a Nettle, I played land, Nettle and passed. Next I drew heritage Druid, played Birchlore, tapped the elves, played Quiron then Heritage. Next turn I drew Cradle and NO'd for hoof.

Match 2 I lost to Infect, hard. Very hard to deal with blighted agent when I can't seem to get any Abrupt Decays.

Match 3 I played against Dragon Stompy.
Game 1 he chalices for 1 on turn one, then turn 2 magus of the moon. I died quickly.
Game 2 was very long. He chaliced on turn one, thankfully I was able to lead off with DRS off of a basic forest. I had Sage in opening hand and played it turn 2, unfortunately for me he had another chalice right after that. Then he had a Trinisphere. I was able to get up to 4 mana and GSZ for the other Sage. He followed that up with an Ensnaring Bridge. After that we both built up our boards, I was able to get WRP out and make tons of Wolves. I stopped at 20 because it didn't matter. It took 8 turns I did not find a GSZ, NO, Abrupt Decay or a Wirewood. I finally got a GSZ, got Wirewood, bounced a Sage and attacked in.
Game 3 he Chaliced on turn 1, ensnaring bridge follow up with a Magus of the Moon. Had decay but no way to make black mana through the Magus. Bridge was enough to hold me off as he got Koth online quickly.

Match 3, Soldiers.
Game 1 He started out with Chalice on 1 turn one. He followed up with Suppression field and then Preeminent Captain, killed me quickly with Soldiers.
Game 2 I was able to Cabal Therapy away his two Chalices. Unfortunately for me he was able to turn 2 suppression field off of Chrome Mox and a plains (mox he didn't have when I therapied). Again it shut down my DRS and Quirion Ranger. He then followed up with a second top decked suppression field. He put me in an abyss lock pretty quickly.

Suppression Field was just a beating. The way it shut down my fetch lands was just brutal. That second game I kept a 1 Lander with Cabal, DRS and Quirion. That field shut down all my ways to make more than 1 mana per turn. I drew 3 fetches but it hit a point I needed to pay 4 to fetch.

So.. I was glad to have the second Sage, without it I would have been in even a worse position in the games I had to bring it in. When facing both Chalice and Blood Moon, it's the only option. I feel like Abrupt Decay just hates me, it doesn't want to show up in my hand and when it does I have no way to cast it.

Here's my board

3x Abrupt Decay
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Natural Order
2x Pithing Needle
1x Progenitus
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Swan Song
1x Sylvan Library
2x Thoughtseize

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Originally Posted by DarthObiwan

I ended up 1-3. The 2 of the matches I lost all had Chalice of the Void. I went 45 games in a row with my opponent playing turn 1 Chalice on 1.

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You clearly need work on your deck cutting skills. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Lord_of_Rivendell

You clearly need work on your deck cutting skills. :tongue:

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The thought had crossed my mind :smile:

I was also plagued by the draw Progenitus the turn I was going to fetch him. I'm ready to just cut him to teach him a lesson.

In better news, watching Ross Merriam play Elves in the SCG Legacy Open Top 8 right now. Love his opponent scooping to a board full of 1/x's :laugh:

Man, watching Merriam on Elves against Musser on Miracles game 1...(SPOILER)

Finding that last chance Terminus after a fetch...gotta say that's happened to me quite a few times...but gotta imagine how frustrating it is here. But absolute respect for not giving in.

Now I replaced the SB Abrupt Decays with 3 more Sages, as a 3cc creature is hard to counter via Countertop atm and not only comes without a color restriction, but also with a body for beatdown, block, Cabal Therapy and Natural Order. Pure cardadvantage against Miracles

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Now I replaced the SB Abrupt Decays with 3 more Sages, as a 3cc creature is hard to counter via Countertop atm and not only comes without a color restriction, but also with a body for beatdown, block, Cabal Therapy and Natural Order. Pure cardadvantage against Miracles

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But which does not kill delver, is not instant and is counterable?

Vs miracles the color restriction is not an issue. For which MUs do you really prefer to play 4 sages?

Because I use to play decay primarily vs delver.deck and miracle. And delver sees more play than miracles. The fact that it is favored MUs (only slightly favored for RUG) does not mean we should stop to care about them.

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Originally Posted by dte

But which does not kill delver, is not instant and is counterable?

Vs miracles the color restriction is not an issue. For which MUs do you really prefer to play 4 sages?

Because I use to play decay primarily vs delver.deck and miracle. And delver sees more play than miracles. The fact that it is favored MUs (only slightly favored for RUG) does not mean we should stop to care about them.

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So you wanna board a Decay just to kill Delver and expect it to be castable while Stifle and Wasteland fuck with your black mana? Being an instant is barely relevant and the only thing that can reliable counter Sages in Miracles is FoW.

I consider 4 Sages pretty relevant against SFM, Vial, Painter and stuff for the beforementioned reasons of being monocolored an a creature which you can fetch with GSZ and NO

Legacy DE with #Elves - Mario Kart in-between rounds! Join our team!: http://www.twitch.tv/itsjulian

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Legacy DE with #Elves - Mario Kart in-between rounds! Join our team!: http://www.twitch.tv/itsjulian

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Those Italian Plumbers make it hard to read chat and drive :)

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

So you wanna board a Decay just to kill Delver and expect it to be castable while Stifle and Wasteland fuck with your black mana? Being an instant is barely relevant and the only thing that can reliable counter Sages in Miracles is FoW.

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Yes :)
I have been often able to cast decay vs delver.deck. Waste is not really an issue as you often fetch bayou when you want to cast decay.
I have even seen some player play seize in the MU, while the card cost you PV and does nothing against a resolved delver, which is to my mind the thing you want to worry about.

How do you react vs delver? Looking at the clock and trying to win before to die?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I consider 4 Sages pretty relevant against SFM, Vial, Painter and stuff for the beforementioned reasons of being monocolored an a creature which you can fetch with GSZ and NO

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The fact that you can fetch it with GSZ/NO is an irrelevant point to want to play 4 of them. Or is it that that you advocate that when 3 of them have been played, you can fetch the fourth?
Wirewood symbiot does not exist anymore?

Against painter I prefer decay due to the uncounterable part. Vs SFM -> jitte the instant part is not so irrelevant.

I'm not advocating that Sage is not a great card. I even agree with you, as I think most of us, that the number of relevant targets, the fact that it is tutorable, the monocolor part make it a staple as a one-of MD, while decay is for sure a SB card. I can see a second in SB, but the remaining 3? and 0 decay?


I'm looking forward for you to convince me: last time I disagreed with you you were advocating WRP.
Thanks to your argumentation I tried the card, and it's not even remotely close to leave my MD anytime soon!
:)

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Originally Posted by dte

Yes :)
I have been often able to cast decay vs delver.deck. Waste is not really an issue as you often fetch bayou when you want to cast decay.
I have even seen some player play seize in the MU, while the card cost you PV and does nothing against a resolved delver, which is to my mind the thing you want to worry about.

How do you react vs delver? Looking at the clock and trying to win before to die?

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on the play I might board in the discard, but trying to solve a 1cc creature with a 2cc Instant is exactly the gameplan of Tempo decks and after I watched Julian yesterday barely naturally racing a TRIPLE DELVER START i'm not convinced that boarding Decays against Delver is required. Delver is a 7 turn-clock and I'm more worried about the mana development in that matchup than the damage. I however admit that being able to kill a Peacekeeper with Decay was a nice thing to witness, but evaluating the options to kill creatures and Liliana is the major task tacked on replacing Decays with Sages

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The fact that you can fetch it with GSZ/NO is an irrelevant point to want to play 4 of them. Or is it that that you advocate that when 3 of them have been played, you can fetch the fourth?
Wirewood symbiot does not exist anymore?

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Being able to naturally draw into the Sage to setup Symbiote-combo more frequently is a nice side-effect, but unlike Decay it feeds Glimpse, Heritage & Cradle, is playable under Bloodmoon, is cardadvantage, offers a body for NO/Therapy, etc. I've found myself often enough in a situation in which I was either unable to cast Decay because of the black mana or they were clogging my hand while I needed creatures

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Against painter I prefer decay due to the uncounterable part. Vs SFM -> jitte the instant part is not so irrelevant.

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for me the biggest threat in that matchup is Bloodmoon. This was also something we were able to witness yesterday. Sage won the game (even if GSZ'd for) while drawing Decays would have been worthless

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I'm not advocating that Sage is not a great card. I even agree with you, as I think most of us, that the number of relevant targets, the fact that it is tutorable, the monocolor part make it a staple as a one-of MD, while decay is for sure a SB card. I can see a second in SB, but the remaining 3? and 0 decay?

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my Main grief about Decay is the color and that it does absolutely nothing for your boardstate. While the color may not be the issue against Miracles, you might agree that killing counterbalance AND leaving a 2/1 body as a clock sounds spicy against a deck which is trying to grind us out of creatures which are also our source for mana. The option to kill annoying permanents without any tradeoffs in term of boardstate development or color requirements was the reason I wanted to test the option. I was not aware that US Miracles have such a high number on 3 cc spells. The most lists I saw in Europe were very light on them, so. I thought that the uncounterability would not be a selling point

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I'm looking forward for you to convince me: last time I disagreed with you you were advocating WRP.
Thanks to your argumentation I tried the card, and it's not even remotely close to leave my MD anytime soon!
:)

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never turn your back on the wolfpac :)

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

on the play I might board in the discard, but trying to solve a 1cc creature with a 2cc Instant is exactly the gameplan of Tempo decks and after I watched Julian yesterday barely naturally racing a TRIPLE DELVER START i'm not convinced that boarding Decays against Delver is required. Delver is a 7 turn-clock and I'm more worried about the mana development in that matchup than the damage. I however admit that being able to kill a Peacekeeper with Decay was a nice thing to witness, but evaluating the options to kill creatures and Liliana is the major task tacked on replacing Decays with Sages

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I believe delver is the only point on which we disagree. For me decay is the best card ever versus delver.deck. They usually kill me only through delver, as DRS, mongoose or tarmo are not big threads for us (and tarmo die quite easily on decay). Sometimes delver is backed by TNN, which is a 3 mana delver which survive decay in the MU.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

on the play I might board in the discard, but trying to solve a 1cc creature with a 2cc Instant is exactly the gameplan of Tempo decks

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I will add that more often than not, delver is a 2-cc crea as many tempo players will use a cantrip to flip it, which is not always the smartest move.
And delver.decks do not have 12 delvers to play. If we kill one they will have to spend their cantrips to find the second one.

For me the gameplan of tempodeck is delver. If we kill it, even for 2 mana we should be just fine.

And discard is spending one mana more than them too without advancing the board state, so I do not see how it could be a better tempo play than decay on delver.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Delver is a 7 turn-clock and I'm more worried about the mana development in that matchup than the damage.

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If there is not a 7-turn clock, I will find my mana

Guess who's back....?
Back again....!

Alright.
I spent too much time away from the board.
Time to get the deck back together