[Primer] R/G Lands

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

What else are you thinking of running in your sideboard? Current ideas for me look something like:

4 Sphere
2 Revoker
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Hull Breach
1 Firespout

With the pretty generic 60 of 34 lands and 26 spells.

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I'm on a non-traditional RG build w/ Explosives, Academy Ruins and Tolaria. My sideboard looks like this (but as said I will certainly change Krosan Grip for Seal) :

4 Sphere of Resistence
2 Chalice
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tracker
2 Revoker
1 Ballista

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

... while the always-four-of K-Grip probably gets dropped entirely for stuff like Seal of Primordium, Hull Breach, and Ancient Grudge, since they all cost less and the uncounterability of K-Grip is (almost) no longer relevant. Do we make room for board sweepers, like Kozilek's Return or Firespout, or some other tech?

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Originally Posted by J0n

Guys, we should not forget s&t. I'd rather have a k-grip than naturalize when looking at an omniscience...

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As BUG decks featuring TNN should be on the rise, I'm considering a (some) Golgari Charm in a KGrip slot.

@ Ingo: that's actually a pretty good option. It also works wonders against Elves. Will try them tonight at my local LGS.

EDIT: but I'm not in the black splash right now... Maybe splash a single Bayou? Still, good call.

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Originally Posted by Ingo

As BUG decks featuring TNN should be on the rise, I'm considering a (some) Golgari Charm in a KGrip slot.

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Really really nice call.
Guys don't undervalue the Molten Vortex main deck option, I am running it because it's great against Game 1 Moon plus great against DT, Delver, Elves and others.

my current SB:

// 15 Sideboard
// 5 Artifact
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void

// 4 Creature
SB: 2 Tireless Tracker
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental

// 3 Instant
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Karakas

// 2 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Nissa, Vital Force
SB: 1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

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Originally Posted by LuKe94

Really really nice call.
Guys don't undervalue the Molten Vortex main deck option, I am running it because it's great against Game 1 Moon plus great against DT, Delver, Elves and others.

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Saying of Moons, I'm keeping 2x Vortex main, but also plan on adding a Seismic Assault or 2 to the board in case Moons come in force. Sounds like a good use for our new found SB space.

Also, what do people think about finally merging the threads?

• RUG lists are running fewer (or no) Intuitions, including more Gamble.
• RGCL lists are splashing :u: for EE and Ruins.
• RG lists are playing Crucible sometimes.

I get that RUG is strategically different, but the lines are being blurred so much it feels more like continuum than like 2 discrete decks.

Also, RG Lands and RGB Lands are close enough to share a thread, but RUG lists are the odd man out? That makes as much sense as if we had had 1 thread for Ponder and Mentor Miracles, but a separate thread for Legends Miracles.

Given people migrate between the two, seems fine.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Also, what do people think about finally merging the threads?

• RUG lists are running fewer (or no) Intuitions, including more Gamble.
• RGCL lists are splashing :u: for EE and Ruins.
• RG lists are playing Crucible sometimes.

I get that RUG is strategically different, but the lines are being blurred so much it feels more like continuum than like 2 discrete decks.

Also, RG Lands and RGB Lands are close enough to share a thread, but RUG lists are the odd man out? That makes as much sense as if we had had 1 thread for Ponder and Mentor Miracles, but a separate thread for Legends Miracles.

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With MIracles gone, I don't think RG should splash for U anymore, as EE's main target was counterbalance. EE hits TNN too, but I think powering out the combo is more effective for RG than splashing for EE. So both decks will probably divert again.

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Originally Posted by Ingo

With MIracles gone, I don't think RG should splash for U anymore, as EE's main target was counterbalance. EE hits TNN too, but I think powering out the combo is more effective for RG than splashing for EE. So both decks will probably divert again.

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True. If the format goes more midrange with Leotard and TNN Blade decks (or even Mother/Maverick), EE might still be the best pick. If the combo decks are mostly Elves, that argues for EE too.
I expect the meta to become a little more cyclic in the long term, and erratic in the short term. This will mean more variation in the meta from month to month, town to town. Builds could then be all over the place.

More polarized version of the decks will still exist, but we also have everything in between - and :r::g::b: too.

I'm totally keeping EE for a large (by comparison) local on Sunday. When I've decided between 0, 1, and 2 copies of Intuition, I'll know where to post my list. :)

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Also, what do people think about finally merging the threads?
RG Lands and RGB Lands are close enough to share a thread, but RUG lists are the odd man out? That makes as much sense as if we had had 1 thread for Ponder and Mentor Miracles, but a separate thread for Legends Miracles.

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Agree.

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Originally Posted by Ingo

With MIracles gone, I don't think RG should splash for U anymore, as EE's main target was counterbalance. EE hits TNN too, but I think powering out the combo is more effective for RG than splashing for EE. So both decks will probably divert again.

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EE is for CB? And here I thought it was a wonderful way to deal with DnT.

From Togores' post on the TES Facebook group:

http://i.imgur.com/VJEa9Hh.jpg

Be careful out there. Lots of sideboard space available again...

Jup, I learned the hard way yesterday... Boy, it is a hostile world out there right now :-(

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

EE is for CB? And here I thought it was a wonderful way to deal with DnT.

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EE deals with anything, no argument in that. But EE requires a whole lot of commitment to play it, like 5 cards in 3EE/1trop/1Ruins. That's worth it when you commit to the strategy even further as in RUG Lands, along with Intuition and Tolaria West, but is it still worth it now in RG?
There are other wonderful ways to deal with D&T, Barbarian Ring and Molten Vortex coming to mind, and they do not take 5 slots so you can still run some manabonds to play the explosive RG game.

So with Countertop gone, I think the merits of EE has diminished, especially for a RG build that splashes blue just for that.

If Storm players pick up Telemin Performance you could play some Revokers as its good vs them anyway.

Performance looks nasty.

Decks running EE/Ruins can stay "alive", but you'll need a Crucible from the board if you want any actual play.
Shouldn't it be hard for them to ramp and dig through our lock rocks anyway? I mean, if they can hit 5 mana, aren't they probably going to kill us one way or another?

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Originally Posted by filln

From Togores' post on the TES Facebook group:

http://i.imgur.com/VJEa9Hh.jpg

Be careful out there. Lots of sideboard space available again...

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A salty lands player in my area put a Phage in his board a while back for this situation

I think Lands is at a point where the deck evolves or probably dies.

I’m interested if other people feel the same about Lands right now.

With Miracles gone we lose an annoying match up that’s good, but we see an increase in combo decks. This Meta change is normal since in a “new” Meta it’s always best to be linear and fast. The answer to combo decks were always different Delver versions and we can be sure that going forward we will see Deathrite Shaman in these decks. At the same time to the increasing numbers of Combo and Delver Leotard decks will hit hard.

If my prediction is correct and the top decks in the Meta will be “mostly” Combo, Deathrite/leotard and Deathrite/Delver. Traditional Lands will have a hard time vs a Meta like that.
Because even if Delver versions stays a positive matchup the rest of the field is going to be devastating and then we are big on the ‘match up lottery’.

It is extremely unlikely that we will see new cards printed that upgrade slots in the mainboard of R/G Lands. So the question is can Lands evolve with the Meta or are will we fall behind?

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Originally Posted by DigitalPsycho

I think Lands is at a point where the deck evolves or probably dies.

I’m interested if other people feel the same about Lands right now.

With Miracles gone we lose an annoying match up that’s good, but we see an increase in combo decks. This Meta change is normal since in a “new” Meta it’s always best to be linear and fast. The answer to combo decks were always different Delver versions and we can be sure that going forward we will see Deathrite Shaman in these decks. At the same time to the increasing numbers of Combo and Delver Leotard decks will hit hard.

If my prediction is correct and the top decks in the Meta will be “mostly” Combo, Deathrite/leotard and Deathrite/Delver. Traditional Lands will have a hard time vs a Meta like that.
Because even if Delver versions stays a positive matchup the rest of the field is going to be devastating and then we are big on the ‘match up lottery’.

It is extremely unlikely that we will see new cards printed that upgrade slots in the mainboard of R/G Lands. So the question is can Lands evolve with the Meta or are will we fall behind?

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I do not feel it is all doom and gloom. Ok, Combo sucks. Sure. Its going to come back too, yes. But the tempo style decks that prey on Combo will be wonderful food for us. We are going to play a role, like Dredge does. When people forget to include the Grave hate Dredge reminds them that they should. When the Tempo players focus their eyes only on their native prey we can to remind them they are not invincible themselves.

This is all before we talk about what other things may come from this. What if Esperblade comes back and Maverick has an uptick? We are less than a week into whatever this new situation is. Ask me in a month if we are fucked, right now I think its far too early to claim anything with any real certainty.

Sounds like rock paper scissors to me. Combo > Lands > Delver > Combo. The deck needs to cleanly and reliably answer Deathrite, which may be a problem, but Deathrite decks have a hard time dealing with a high speed Marit Lage if you just ignore the little bugger.