4 Card Blind

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Rules for game state-based effects have changed several times since Urza's Saga. I don't think the combo works either, but we'll need to do a deep dive into the rules to be sure.

I actually thought the Curio was there to be able to make three lands per turn, which isn't needed under the 4CB rules for this round. I didn't see the combo attempt at all. :frown:

EDIT: How I think it works:
You have an Exploration in play and one in hand, and Curio in play.
You are alowed to play two lands now.
You play Exploration2, it resolves. Curio now triggers. With this trigger on the stack, before anyone is allowed to do anythig, the game checks how many lands may be played. That answer is now 3.
The trigger resolves, bouncing Exploration1. After this has resoled, and before anyone gains priority, the game again checks how many lands may be player. That answer is now 2.
Then you get priority and are allowed to drop a land.

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You are all correct. He can never play more than a 3rd land.

The rules have been that way since Magic 2014.
https://www.toptiertactics.com/18970...rules-changes/
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/...oudstone-curio
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Words-of-Wind

Before that, the infinite Exploration trick worked and was part of a competitive Legacy deck. Enchantress used it with Words of Wind to bounce Explorations and replay Serra's Sanctum for loads of mana, e.g. Emrakul. I've used it in Commander too back when it was called EDH, with Azusa, Lost but Seeking (which was busted before they banned Prime Time). Other than those decks the interaction comes up so rarely I never knew they changed it. Old player showing his age.

Then maybe the Curio was just to play 3 lands in case the format rules didn't allow it?

After Oko being banned, I tried but failed to find a card that is both blue, a good threat, and answers some of the worst offenders.
I assumed a lot of FoN, exploration, recursion (elixir and eldrazils looked pretty good) and T1 decks.
I first toyed with Valki, before deciding to play pauper:
5. dte: dark ritual, tel-jilad stylus, mesmeric fiend, reality acid

1. Asthereal (TO): Counterspell, Counterspell, Vraska the Unseen, Vraska, Relic Seeker
4-1. OTP You never see a second land. OTD I T1 DR, stylet, exile one CS. On my T3 I start destroying a land a turn. If you counter, I win, so you just sit with UU open in case I play fiend.
4

2. jhhdk: Exploration, Exploration, Xantid Swarm, Scute Swarm
6-0. I always exile scute T1.
10

3. Wrath of Pie: Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy, Transgress the Mind, Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
3-3. OTP I destroy your first land for 23 turns and slowly kill you. OTD I guess I lose.
13

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Exploration, Steppe Lynx, Cloudstone Curio, Exploration
6-0.
19

6. Reeplcheep: Exploration, Azusa, lost but seeking, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
6-0. I take Azusa T1 OTD, Kozilek some time later. I kill valakut if you play it.
25

7. H: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, From Under the Floorboards
3-3. OTP it is quite easy, exile floorboards T1. OTD I am too slow to stop the 5 2/2 onslaught.
28

8. FTW: Veil of Summer, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Archon of Valor's Reach
3-3. Archon on enchantment and I lose OTD. OTP I can take any card except veil FTW. That was a deck I expected to see more, and hesitated to play.
31

9. alphastryk: Force of Will, Dack Fayden, Beacon of Destruction, Land Equilibrium
6-0. assuming FoN. OTD, I play T1 dark ritual. If you FoN, you lose to T2 fiend on Dack, then stylus. So you do not FoN. I cast fiend, exiling FoN, then stylus. End of your turn 2, I put fiend in my library, recast it to take Dack T2. Otherwise, Dack seems brilliant, but land equilibrium too slow for the decks it would be good against?
37

10. maxx!: Mistcutter Hydra, Misthollow Griffin, Food Chain, Force of Will
2-2. Assuming FoN, I can never prevent you to cast hydra for 1. we always draw.
39

11. silkster: Shocker, Path to Exile, Chancellor of the Tangle, Leyline of the Void
4-1. OTP I take Shocker T1, then cast fiend and let the trigger resolve to take the path on T2. OTD you play shoker, I exile PtE definitely (or you don't play anything to keep PtE open, I exile shoker and you exile fiend, and we draw as I destroy your lands). I will exile Chancellor later on, and we can either trade our creatures or I block and put it under the library forever. I am surprised you're the only one on LLotV. Good combination on the shoker + LlotV against the eldrazi too.
43

12. Tylert: Liliana of the veil, Leyline of sanctity, Assassin's trophy, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3-3. OTP I destroy a land per turn, starting T2. OTD, I think I lose, one turn short of everything.
46

13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin
0-6. I don't think I can win neither OTP nor OTD.
46

I was assuming FoN in over half of the decks, as well as some gravehate, and the rest being more recursion/T1 decks. I tried so hard to make a good FoN deck. If I knew, I would have gone for a T1 deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

8. FTW: Veil of Summer, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Archon of Valor's Reach
7. H: OTP Turn 1 Archon on Artifact shuts off your deck. OTD you make 4 zombies before I play Archon to stop more. I beat down with Vigilance while you can't attack into a 5/6. WW 6-0

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It is 5 2/2, with the land for T1.
So it just exactly races: 12, 6, 2, 0.
And Iona would have done the same here, the better clock vs vigilance changing nothing.

Never mind. Already explained.

Big failure on my part re: Force of Will. I got too used to it being around in the peasant season I think. I'm fine with a swap to Force of Negation or with getting 0 points for submitting an illegal deck, which is what I did. I also probably tried to hard to be cute within the rules of the round vs jamming LED + Unburial Rites etc.

Assuming all FoWs become FoNs, my scoring is as follows:

1. Asthereal (TO): Counterspell, Counterspell, Vraska the Unseen, Vraska, Relic Seeker
EDIT: You have to wait to cast your first Vraska until you can protect it from FoN with Counterspell, and similarly I wait to hold up 3 mana FoN along with Dack, but you can beat that by holding up double Counterspell. I don't see a way for Land Equilibrium to become relevant, and you win by waiting and holding up double Counterspell so I can never proactively play Dack. LL

0-6

2. jhhdk: Exploration, Exploration, Xantid Swarm, Scute Swarm
You should always be able to lead Forest, Exploration, Forest, Exploration, Forest, Xantid Swarm, and then follow it up with a Swarm of insects I can't hope to interact with fast enough. Great use of the round rules. LL

0-6

3. Wrath of Pie: Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy, Transgress the Mind, Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
Elixir is a problem, as it will gain you the life right back after I Beacon. Combined with a discard spell I have to counter, I don't see a way to me to win. I can't even try to lock you out with Land Equilibrium because of Trophy. LL

0-6

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Exploration, Steppe Lynx, Cloudstone Curio, Exploration
Let me see if I understand the plan here. Turn 1, you play Forest, Exploration, Plains, Lynx. Turn 2, you play land, Curio, land, Exploration - bounce Exploration. On your turn 3, you can loop Explorations to play infinite lands and kill me. I think the only meaningful way for me to slow you down is to Force the first Exploration, pitching Land Equilibrium or Dack as they are both blanks. That means you play second Exploration, Lynx on your turn 2, and start attacking for 4 a turn on your turn 3. That won't kill me fast enough, so Beacon takes care of Lynx. WW

6-0

5. dte: dark ritual, tel-jilad stylus, mesmeric fiend, reality acid
EDIT: The Fiend Stylus trick gets it done. LL

0-6

6. Reeplcheep: Exploration, Azusa, lost but seeking, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
OTP: Kozilek means Dack can't force you to discard anything, so all I can do is try to slow you down enough to land Land Equilibrium. That means I FoN Exploration pitching Dack, and you play Azusa on your turn 3, playing out lands 4 and 5 (4 mountains). On my turn 4, I jam Land Equilibrium meaning you can't ever increase your lands in play from here, even after I play land 5 to start using Beacon. W
OTD:
I FoN Exploration pitching Dack, and you play Azusa on your turn 3, playing out lands 4 and 5 (4 mountains). On your turn 4, you can play out Valakut along with mountain 5 and 6 which gets you ahead of Land Equilibrium, as now you can just swap Mountains. This also puts me to 17. Land Equilibrium is now a blank, so your turn 5 you play out Mountains 7, 8, 9 putting me to 8. The best thing I can do from here is Beacon Azusa on my turn 5 to slow you down, then try to race with Beacon. You kill me in 3 turns, while Beacon kills you in 4 so you get it. L

3-3

7. H: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, From Under the Floorboards
FoN is a problem for me here, as you can just crack the LEDs and play Floorboards on my turn when FoN is a blank. I can't beat the initial 5 zombies, let alone you making more a few turns later. LL

0-6

8. FTW: Veil of Summer, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Archon of Valor's Reach
Turn 2 protected Unburial Rites. I can't beat a generic 5/6 from there. LL

0-6

9. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Dack Fayden, Beacon of Destruction, Land Equilibrium
This is me

10. maxx!: Mistcutter Hydra, Misthollow Griffin, Food Chain, Force of Negation
OTP: I play Dack on my turn 3, which you have to FoN to protect cards in your hand. Then you play Food Chain on your turn 3, which I FoN pitching Land Equilibrium. From here, its a race of Beacon vs creatures. Your turn 4, you play Griffin. From here, Beacon beats Griffin, so you have to make a Hydra big enough that Beacon can't kill it. Lets see if you have that much time. I kill you on my turn 8 if all the Beacons go upstairs, and my turn 9 if I have to shoot the Griffin. If you play Hydra on your turn 7 as a 6/6, it kills me on your turn 11 which is too slow. W
OTD: Similar to the above, but the 6/6 Hydra kills me on your turn 10 since you get one Griffin attack in before I can Beacon it. That's still 1 turn too slow. W

6-0

11. silkster: Shocker, Path to Exile, Chancellor of the Tangle, Leyline of the Void
I can't interact with Shocker, and I lose my hand on your turn 2. LL

0-6

12. Tylert: Liliana of the veil, Leyline of sanctity, Assassin's trophy, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Dack is a double blank here due to Leyline and Emrakul, and Trophy / Liliana both beat Land Equilibrium. LL

0-6

13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin
To prevent slow Ulamog, I use Land Equilibrium. Beacon takes care of Griffin, with my FoN live to protect it if needed. WW

6-0

total: 21 points with FoN

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

1. Asthereal (TO): Counterspell, Counterspell, Vraska the Unseen, Vraska, Relic Seeker
I jam Dack on my turn 3 to make you discard 2, which you have to counter otherwise I make you discard twice before you can cast 5-mana Vraska no matter who is on the play. So you counterspell, I FoN back pitching Land Equilibrium, then Dack you 2 turns in a row leaving you with no cards, after which Beacon will win it for me. WW

6-0

9. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Dack Fayden, Beacon of Destruction, Land Equilibrium
This is me

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I see I forgot about the target player option of Dack. But you forgot about the fact that Force of Negation cannot be played for free on your turn.
We'll both need to revisit this, I'm afraid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

5. dte: dark ritual, tel-jilad stylus, mesmeric fiend, reality acid

10. maxx!: Mistcutter Hydra, Misthollow Griffin, Food Chain, Force of Will
2-2. Assuming FoN, I can never prevent you to cast hydra for 1. we always draw.
39

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How does this draw? You have to play Fiend first before Stylus to dodge Force, and that breaks the Fiend trick.

dte vs maxx
M: Forest
D: Swamp, Ritual -> Mesmeric Fiend taking Force (otherwise he counters Stylus and Griffin wins). Stylus

M: Island
D: Island.

M: Island. Hydra X=2. Attack for 2 haste.
D: Reality Acid the lands to prevent Griffin, lose to pro-blue 2/2

----------------------

M: Forest
D: Swamp, Go.

M: Island
D: Swamp. Fiend, exiling Force.

M: Island. Mistcutter X=2, attack with 2/2 haste.
D: Island. Ritual -> Stylus + Acid destroying a land, lose to 2/2


When you go first he can only make a 1/1 and yours deals first damage, so you stare.
DL 1-4?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

8. FTW: Veil of Summer, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Archon of Valor's Reach
3-3. Archon on enchantment and I lose OTD. OTP I can take any card except veil FTW. That was a deck I expected to see more, and hesitated to play.

I was assuming FoN in over half of the decks, as well as some gravehate, and the rest being more recursion/T1 decks. I tried so hard to make a good FoN deck. If I knew, I would have gone for a T1 deck.

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I expected people to expect Iona, so I second guessed myself out of it. Turns out most people ignored turn 1 decks.

I also thought Force-Griffin would be popular, which was solved by Veil + pass the turn. I was also hoping to see more Barbed Shocker effects, because Unburial Rites beats that in this format by just playing 4 Plains. All the good discard left is turn 2 and I thought I was immune... unless you're smart enough to Dark Ritual it out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

Before we answer, there are several FoW listed, which is banned.

Should we propose the posters to replace them with FoN?

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Update for this proposal:
4 players in favour
3 players neutral
None against yet.

Please let us know how you feel about this, if you haven't posted about this yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Update for this proposal:
4 players in favour
3 players neutral
None against yet.

Please let us know how you feel about this, if you haven't posted about this yet.

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I don't care.

1. Asthereal (TO): Counterspell, Counterspell, Vraska the Unseen, Vraska, Relic Seeker
2. jhhdk: Exploration, Exploration, Xantid Swarm, Scute Swarm
3. Wrath of Pie: Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy, Transgress the Mind, Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Exploration, Steppe Lynx, Cloudstone Curio, Exploration
5. dte: dark ritual, tel-jilad stylus, mesmeric fiend, reality acid
6. Reeplcheep: Exploration, Asuza, lost but seeking, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
7. H: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, From Under the Floorboards
8. FTW: Veil of Summer, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Archon of Valor's Reach
9. alphastryk: Force of Will, Dack Fayden, Beacon of Destruction, Land Equilibrium
10. maxx!: Mistcutter Hydra, Misthollow Griffin, Food Chain, Force of Will
11. silkster: Shocker, Path to Exile, Chancellor of the Tangle, Leyline of the Void
12. Tylert: Liliana of the veil, Leyline of sanctity, Assassin's trophy, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin

1. Asthereal: You Can counter lili and assassin's trophy. I have to wait until turn 15 to win the game and that will never happen because of vraska's ultimatum. 0-6 --> 0
2. jhhdk: You can play scute swarm turn 2 with 5 lands and play a 6th land to get a copy scuteswarm trigger. I can kill the original scute swarm but there will still be one there, and you'll have an exponential number of scuteswarm soon. 0-6 --> 0
3. Wrath of Pie: I can slow you down by destroying vithu gazi, but you will redraw it and be able to kill leyline and exile emrakul. Anyway your tokens are also too fast. 0-6 --> 0
4. Goblinsmashmaster: I can kill your threat on the play and anyway, you don't kill me on the draw because of land limit rules 6-0 --> 6
5. dte: I can keep trophy up On the play to destroy stylus in response to its activation. If you never activate stylus to protect acid Lili takes care of fiend by -2 and at some point in time i'll cast emrakul. OTD i'm one turn too late. 3-3 --> 9
6. Reeplcheep: You'll cast Kozilek way before us and even if I can take care of it, you'll recast it way before us. 0-6 --> 9
7. H: Too many tokens to handle. 0-6 --> 9
8. FTW: We can either kill archon, or sacrifice the archon. 6-0 --> 15
9. Alphastryk: Leyline for the win. 6-0 --> 21
10. Maxx!: I'll trust max on this. 6-0 --> 27
11. silkster: OTP I can kill leyline to redraw trophy and win. OTD, I'm too slow and everything goes to the void. 3-3 --> 30
12. Me.
13. Serguei: You can counter lili and cast Ulamog before I can do anything. 0-6 --> 30

Total 24.

Dte please check our match-up.

I made a last minute change, and it costed me a lot :)
I think I was to focused on cards that nobody played in the end !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

5. dte: dark ritual, tel-jilad stylus, mesmeric fiend, reality acid
Turn 1, you can always lead with Ritual -> Fiend. I think I don't FoN the Ritual, as you can just turn 2 Fiend if I do. I want to keep both FoN and Dack, as they both seem to beat your combo. (Dack either steals or discards Stylus). Assuming you take FoN with Fiend, I jam Dack my turn 3 and either steal Stylus or make you discard it. Your combo sets up on your turn 3 (assuming Ritual -> Fiend turn 1), so OTD you start eating my lands such that I never get to 3 to play Dack. If I FoN the Ritual, you setup on your turn 4 instead and I no longer have Dack to work with. I don't ever get mana for Beacon so that doesn't work either. WL

3-3

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

How does this draw? You have to play Fiend first before Stylus to dodge Force, and that breaks the Fiend trick.

dte vs maxx
M: Forest
D: Swamp, Ritual -> Mesmeric Fiend taking Force (otherwise he counters Stylus and Griffin wins). Stylus

M: Island
D: Island.

M: Island. Hydra X=2. Attack for 2 haste.
D: Reality Acid the lands to prevent Griffin, lose to pro-blue 2/2

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Taking FoN T1 before playing stylus does not break the fiend trick: End of turn 1 I put Fiend on the bottom of the library, FoN goes back to hand but I already have stylus in play so I do not care about it anymore, T2 I play fiend, answer the ETB ability by stylus and take dack.

I thought that FoN would be played a lot, so I am quite sure it only delays me by one turn, and is bad if coupled with 1-mana removal, eg. Serguei.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tylert

Dte please check our match-up.

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We do have the same result?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

We do have the same result?

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Indeed, But you never know, we could both be wrong and it's a good thing to check the results :)

I don't know why I thought that you had 6-0 in your favor at some point in time...

13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin



1. Asthereal (TO): Counterspell, Counterspell, Vraska the Unseen, Vraska, Relic Seeker
Your analysis is right I cannot win LL 0pts -> 0pts

2. jhhdk: Exploration, Exploration, Xantid Swarm, Scute Swarm
I cannot fight with this army of Swarm LL 0pts -> 0pts


3. Wrath of Pie: Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy, Transgress the Mind, Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

3. Wrath of Pie: Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy, Transgress the Mind, Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin LL

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I agree with you WW 6pts -> 6pts

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Exploration, Steppe Lynx, Cloudstone Curio, Exploration
You cannot fight with STP WW
6pts -> 12pts


5. dte: dark ritual, tel-jilad stylus, mesmeric fiend, reality acid

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

After Oko being banned, I tried but failed to find a card that is both blue, a good threat, and answers some of the worst offenders.
13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin
0-6. I don't think I can win neither OTP nor OTD.

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Ww 6pts ->18pts


6. Reeplcheep: Exploration, Azusa, lost but seeking, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

i can t do anything LL

7. H: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, From Under the Floorboards
EDIT :

Quote:

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Originally Posted by H

13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin
So, same sort of problem, if you don't FoN one of my LEDs, I wait until your turn and make 5 Zombies, which should it done. But, after you get rid of one LED, I think I can do it all again later and still beat the Griffin. 6-0
.

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LL 0pts ->18pts

8. FTW: Veil of Summer, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Archon of Valor's Reach
too fast and I cannot do anything against your protection LL


9. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Dack Fayden, Beacon of Destruction, Land Equilibrium
I cannot do anything LL

10. maxx!: Mistcutter Hydra, Misthollow Griffin, Food Chain, Force of Negation
I will manage your hydraa with STp then we will trade our griffin and I will win at the end with Big Daddy WW

6pts ->24pts

11. silkster: Shocker, Path to Exile, Chancellor of the Tangle, Leyline of the Void
WW

6pts -> 30 pts


12. Tylert: Liliana of the veil, Leyline of sanctity, Assassin's trophy, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
WW

6pts -> 36 pts

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serguei

13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin

..

3. Wrath of Pie: Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy, Transgress the Mind, Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree

I agree with you WW 6pts -> 6pts

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You both agree here, but I don't think it is correct: Transgress the mind on Ulamog is a serious threat.
From WoP's point of view:
T1 Elixir. If FoN, trangress on Ulamog, and Vitu race griffin. So no FoN.
T2, trophy on land. If FoN, transgress on Ulamog, and Vitu race griffin. So no FoN.
T3 upkeep, activate elixir.
---> so every other turn, killing a land or a griffin, and gaining life. Griffin cannot be cast on 4 lands, otherwise trangress on Ulamog, and Vitu race griffin. So Serguei needs 7 lands, while losing a land every other turn and being raced by 1/1s.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tylert

Indeed, But you never know, we could both be wrong and it's a good thing to check the results :)

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Sure, why not, it is a pretty complicated MU when I am OTD. When I am OTP, you never see a second land so it is pretty easy.
But when I am OTD, there are plenty of lines. And I don't have the courage to go through all now, but it seems to me that you most probably win anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

I see I forgot about the target player option of Dack. But you forgot about the fact that Force of Negation cannot be played for free on your turn.
We'll both need to revisit this, I'm afraid.

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I seem to have forgotten I changed Forces in this scenario. Revisiting, you have to wait to cast your first Vraska until you can protect it from FoN with Counterspell, and similarly I wait to hold up 3 mana FoN along with Dack, but you can beat that by holding up double Counterspell. I don't see a way for Land Equilibrium to become relevant, and you win by waiting and holding up double Counterspell so I can never proactively play Dack. Looks like LL 0-6 for me. Updating my results above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

Taking FoN T1 before playing stylus does not break the fiend trick: End of turn 1 I put Fiend on the bottom of the library, FoN goes back to hand but I already have stylus in play so I do not care about it anymore, T2 I play fiend, answer the ETB ability by stylus and take dack.
...

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This makes sense to me, thanks for walking through it. Updating my posted results.

3CBmaster Results for Round "Removal"

1. Asthereal (TO): Counterspell, Counterspell, Vraska the Unseen, Vraska, Relic Seeker
Supercat smash, then Vraska :( 3-3

2. jhhdk: Exploration, Exploration, Xantid Swarm, Scute Swarm
Swarmed 0-6

3. Wrath of Pie: Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy, Transgress the Mind, Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
Trophy 0-6

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Exploration, Steppe Lynx, Cloudstone Curio, Exploration
That's me exploring with curious cats

5. dte: dark ritual, tel-jilad stylus, mesmeric fiend, reality acid
Too much tech 0-6

6. Reeplcheep: Exploration, Azusa, lost but seeking, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Valakut 0-6

7. H: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, From Under the Floorboards
Zombie swarm 0-6

8. FTW: Veil of Summer, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Archon of Valor's Reach
Supercat smash, then out of reach 3-3

9. alphastryk: Force of Will, Dack Fayden, Beacon of Destruction, Land Equilibrium
Beacon 0-6

10. maxx!: Mistcutter Hydra, Misthollow Griffin, Food Chain, Force of Will
Griffin smash 0-6

11. silkster: Shocker, Path to Exile, Chancellor of the Tangle, Leyline of the Void
Path 0-6

12. Tylert: Liliana of the veil, Leyline of sanctity, Assassin's trophy, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Trophy 0-6

13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin
Swords 0-6


Total: 6 points

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

I seem to have forgotten I changed Forces in this scenario. Revisiting, you have to wait to cast your first Vraska until you can protect it from FoN with Counterspell, and similarly I wait to hold up 3 mana FoN along with Dack, but you can beat that by holding up double Counterspell. I don't see a way for Land Equilibrium to become relevant, and you win by waiting and holding up double Counterspell so I can never proactively play Dack. Looks like LL 0-6 for me. Updating my results above.

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I think it is a complicated MU, but you seem to have the upper hand, so win or draw, but not lose: Land Equilibrium makes it impossible for Asthereal to win, beacon is pretty good against the vraskas, Dack wins if resolved before Asthereal casts his Vraskas...
My guess would be draw by equilibrium.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster

3CBmaster Results for Round "Removal"

Total: 6 points

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Hmm... this is 2 rounds in a row GoblinSmashmaster has had to play a 3-card deck because of an illegal interaction with the Deviant rules. Last time mistiming Dream Halls reanimation, and this time not knowing Curio wasn't needed to get 3x Landfall (or submitting the illegal combo I thought it was).

The other illegal decks got to replace the dead card with a good card instead of being stuck with 3. It seems unfair to not allow that here.

H: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, From Under the Floorboards

1. Asthereal (TO): Counterspell, Counterspell, Vraska the Unseen, Vraska, Relic Seeker
I make a bunch of Zombies before Counterspell can deal. 6-0

2. jhhdk: Exploration, Exploration, Xantid Swarm, Scute Swarm
This is a horrendous amount of math. My hunch is that I am probably not fast enough though. 0-6

3. Wrath of Pie: Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy, Transgress the Mind, Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
Since I can always dodge Transgress, I think I win these. 6-0

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Exploration, Steppe Lynx, Cloudstone Curio, Exploration
Depending on what happens with the Curio slot, I think I can win this. 6-0

5. dte: dark ritual, tel-jilad stylus, mesmeric fiend, reality acid
I think I can win this on the Play, but on the Draw, I just get Fiended to oblivion. 3-3

6. Reeplcheep: Exploration, Azusa, lost but seeking, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
This is neat, but I have fast Zombies. 6-0

7. H: Bye, myself.

8. FTW: Veil of Summer, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Archon of Valor's Reach
Yeah, was thinking of playing something like this, but didn't. 0-6

9. alphastryk: Force of Will, Dack Fayden, Beacon of Destruction, Land Equilibrium
Since I'll never try to make Zombies on my own turn, I think you have to FoN one of my LEDs. But I think you lose in either case since I have 4 power. 6-0

10. maxx!: Mistcutter Hydra, Misthollow Griffin, Food Chain, Force of Will
Yeah, this is a little less clear, since I won't make Zombies on my own turn. So, on the Play, I can make 2 Zombies if you FoNed my LED. If you didn't, I have 5 Zombies and that should be faster than Food Chain. I am going to have to think more on where it goes from 2 Zombies and you casting a turn 3 Food Chain, but I think I might be too slow. 0-6

11. silkster: Shocker, Path to Exile, Chancellor of the Tangle, Leyline of the Void
Leyline is bad news for me, but I still get 5 Zombies. One gets Pathed, but I think 4 can still outrace you casting Chancellor. 6-0

12. Tylert: Liliana of the veil, Leyline of sanctity, Assassin's trophy, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
I think I am just too fast here. 6-0

13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin
So, same sort of problem, if you don't FoN one of my LEDs, I wait until your turn and make 5 Zombies, which should it done. But, after you get rid of one LED, I think I can do it all again later and still beat the Griffin. 6-0

Still some things to think over again though...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Hmm... this is 2 rounds in a row GoblinSmashmaster has had to play a 3-card deck because of an illegal interaction with the Deviant rules. Last time mistiming Dream Halls reanimation, and this time not knowing Curio wasn't needed to get 3x Landfall (or submitting the illegal combo I thought it was).

The other illegal decks got to replace the dead card with a good card instead of being stuck with 3. It seems unfair to not allow that here.

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It's tough, because we've been offering relief when an illegal card / deck is submitted, but not when a legal deck that does not work as intended is submitted. Not sure what the right answer is on this, but as stated I'm totally fine taking a 0 for submitting an illegal deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

Sure, why not, it is a pretty complicated MU when I am OTD. When I am OTP, you never see a second land so it is pretty easy.
But when I am OTD, there are plenty of lines. And I don't have the courage to go through all now, but it seems to me that you most probably win anyway.

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I was sarcastic :)
It's just me who brainfarted.