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To be honest, these days I wonder how broken that card would be. I mean I know it's broken, but compared to Brand, FSM, Omni and shit, it is starting to look almost reasonable.
Knowing how broken it is, that really makes me admire just how fucked up our format has become.
This is just one more reason not to ban Brainstorm. The threat of reducing Legacy to a comboless format is real, and Miracles and Shardless BUG would also experience serious declines in power because they can no longer throw cards on top of their libraries. It's not just Delver strategies that would be hurt. And if Delver is the problem, then Delver should be the target. I don't think that Delver should be banned, but don't blame Brainstorm for it either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
What do you think you have right now? Last month the highest combo deck was painter at 9th, which is normally mono-Red.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
The difference between Belcher on the draw is non existant, you either have Force / Trap or you don't. You can also have answers to empty. 2 card combo like Show and Derp is trying to assemble a derpy 2 card combo, the sorcery speed dig is OK but it'll get hurt the most because it wants to put redundant pieces back with Cheatstorm and shuffle them away. You see 2 griselbrands and a Show and Tell isn't ideal (I know it's a tough deck to play). If Show and Ape gets knocked down a notch I can't imagine anyone with the correct number of chromosomes would shed a tear, it's a miserable deck for everyone involved. It could use the 2 mana shuffle in cantrips to put extra idiotic creatures / sneaks back and produce a random 2. Storm combo is more apt to be able to play off multiple cards (extra dark rituals, LEDs).
Personally I'd rather they unban some cards and see what falls out, because Brainstorm is so far and above the power level of several cards on the BnR list it's laughable.
No, Painter is R/W. Has been so for a while now.
To be honest, I understand the heat the whole Brainstorm + Ponder + Fetchlands core in Legacy draws from the strategies that cannot run blue, but I'm also convinced that the mayority of players rather jump on that train than seriously put time and efford into developing/tuning strategies that prey on these blue package which is often rightfully considered training wheels for bad deckbuilding or greedy keeps.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
There are not nearly enough Suppression Fields, Chokes, Chalices, Thalias or mainboard REB's in the metagame to adress the named blue core, that I would even consider the discussion valid, because the cardpool in Legacy can't handle it itself and needs the help of the banhammer. I'm sure that calls for the ban of brainstorm are short-sighted and would cause collateral damage to the format which would not only significantly reduce the number of playable strategies in Legacy overall, but would also kill Legacy's draw and appeal compared to Modern. In the end, people would have to ask themselves why to bother with Legacy, if Modern is the cheaper and official supported Format with a similar metagame (as a result of crippling spell-based decks).
If the whole, sometimes uninteractive stuff happening after the usual T1 Delver really bugs you and is considered too strong, aim your hatred at the Delver and/or build a deck that beats the 3/2 flyer.
Didn't know mono red was banned. I need to keep up with the times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I don't play Legacy that much, but from the many spells I countered in the last few weeks, it was mostly Terminus, Liliana, SFM, goyf, Ponder, AV, Jace and Counterbalance. I don't even remeber the last time I sit against a combo player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
If your going to talk about the lists that are pulling in turny reports, at lest get the colours right. Mono red is not banned, but it's not as efficient as the version with E tut, RIP and Cannonest.
I'm just tinkering with a GW deck with 4+4 StP+PtE for creature control, and some really nasty creatures (like Indrik Stomphowler or Obstinate Baloth) to get rid of CB, Liliana and BSkull that pester the meta. Trouble is that no matter what you do, this is still weaker than usual blue shell. Yep, no Delver, Goyf, DRS or SFM may survive eight Swords, and the flow of 4/4, 5/3, 6/6 dudes is not what everyone loves to face, but the deck is slow like an autobus and it's not that hard to lose the early game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13568&iddeck=99689Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
just a 2 month search in TC decks .......... I mean maybe the SCG lemmings copied each other R/w lists but it doesn't mean mono red painter isn't "a real deck".
I didn't say it wasn't a real deck, only that it's finding itself superseded by a different build of the same deck. One that is better at pushing it's combo than Mono red. A deck I find to be the most durdeling of combo decks. Either you have the stone, or your at the mercy of the top deck with very limited filtering. White offers an extra shuffle effect and search effect.
Mono red is still a deck, it's just a worse one.
I understand what Enlightened Tutor does.
It would be really nice if they unbanned something - anything at this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
+1.
Vise would be nice. T1 vise into sinkhole into vindicateall your lands sounds fun
I fail to see how unbanning something would make the situation better aside from Brainstorm apologists going "See, Brainstorm isn't head and shoulders above several cards on the banned list anymore."Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Again, what can be realistically be unbanned? Vise and Mind Twister would hardly do anything to the format.
Would Earthcraft make Enchantress more viable? And who says that SotF doesn't just breed another combo deck with a blue Brainstorm core at the end of the day?
Sure sounds like fun for the other side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
There weren't nearly as many ways to dump your hand or counter spells as there are now since the card was banned in December of 1996. Vise was actually banned because anything restricted on the old "Type II" Banned List got the axe - a policy which effectively has carried through until today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
So initially, it seemed as though the DCI thought Vise was powerful enough to keep in Standard as a one-of, even though they felt it necessary to allow it to fall wayward in the mass-banning that took place that winter where all of those restricted cards got axed. We're also talking twenty years of time that has passed, and although the effect is pretty degenerate, in a format like Legacy I just don't see it as being overpowered today as it was then.
Just look at the lost discussion of the power of life points today: people start the game off at 16 or 17 regularly using fetches, Probes, Forces, shocks, etc. Even Ad Nauseam. Honestly, I think life as a payment resource has been abused far too much, almost to the point of absurdity. A card like this would punish those decks and players for abusing their life totals as a resource like that and keep things honest.
It would also speed up games significantly.
I agree with this comment. I'd prefer to see Brainstorm banned because it is the most ubiquitous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
However, where I think it turned for the worst was the printing of Delver, Snap Caster, TNN, and in revisionist history, V. Clique. Giving these creatures to blue is a mistake. Ban these four creatures, or the one spell Brainstorm, and the proverbial balance will be put closer to equal.
I'm just curious as to how the meta would become with Delver banning.
Well blue wouldn't have the most aggressively costed creature ever anymore, so prolly very different
I mean is it worse than T2 show and derp? Fun factor shouldn't be a determining factor to whether or not a card should be on the ban list. Some of us enjoy prison strategies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Still has the best efficient beater, though in SFM. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
It would certainly shake up the metagame for sure since some Delver variant has pretty much always been the top dog of the format since its release.Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
What are the decks Delver excels against? Those decks would probably benefit from it.
I don't think other aggressive decks would suddenly appear in the metagame, mainly because Miracles still takes a crap on those strategies.
- Suppression Field sucks since it hinders you too much from having an effective, consistent strategy yourself. There's a good reason people never play it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
- Do the green non-blue decks really just not do well right now because they don't run enough Chokes?
- Chalice: Same issue like Suppression Field. There aren't many shells where you can effectively run it. Stompy sucks because it's too inconsistent, which leaves us with Lands and maybe Merfolk variants.
- Thalia is already adapted by D&T with huge success. Deathguy Ale and Maverick also incorporate it, but aren't as successful as D&T. Everything else prefers a blue shell for greater consistency.
- How many decks can actually afford dead cards for the 30% non-blue metagame, aside from Imperial Painter and maybe other blue decks that can shuffle away dead REBs with the help of Brainstorm? Just suggesting that one should run a color-specific sideboard card in the maindeck just shows how warped the metagame has become. Kinda reminds me of "Affinity is fine, just run more maindeck artifact hate!".
The solutions to Brainstorm are too narrow, too slow or require specific, often suboptimal shells. Otherwise, Brainstorm would be solved already.
SFM is much slower and more beatable, though. Double Delver on the play, backed-up with disruption/protection is just beyond stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
Worse? Certainly not. S&T just a dumb card. And I certainly enjoy Prison strategies to some extend, otherwise I wouldn't play D&T.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
And it's A-ok if Goyf becomes the best blue creature again too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
... and Vise is often a cinder block if drawn late ... it can't attack or block. I guess it can be Shrapnel Blasted. Or I guess if you unban Vise and leave Brainstorm it can be shuffled away with Cheatstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Nut draws happen sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
If 30% of the average metagame was non-blue we would not have the discussion nor see Miracle lists like the one of Maxime Gilles during the GP. I don't see why the metagame, if infested with blue cantrips, cannot react with dedicated hate. I mean, we are fine to be forced to play MB creature hate as well because of the metagame, aren't we?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Maybe because creatures are one, if not the centerpiece of the game, unlike blue cantrips? I'm not arguing for a "Standard Herp-a-Derp turn fat dudes sideaways"-format, but stating that the format should revolve around a subclass of a color's spell is ridiculous. That's like saying "Legacy should revolve around burn spells because casting spells is awesome and all people should be forced to maindeck hate against me."Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
As far as hate i concerned, I miss Vial in your list since it puts a dent into blue's counterwall and goes extremely well with Thalia + Karakas. If anything, you should ask why not more people are running Vial.
I t really boils down to, are there enough ways to fight BS and such? Yes. Certainly. But doing so requires you generally to run a less consistent (because you lack brainstorm), or simply too weak of a deck. Sure, I could run a deck with like 4 Spirit of the Labyrinth and MB Chains of Mephistopheles. But I shouldn't really have to. Consistency is the real reason BS is such a powerful card. Over a longer tournament (Oh look, the 15/16 brainstorm tourney happened to be one of the very few 10 round Legacy events SCG has had in awhile) the Brainstorm decks will rise over the non BS decks simply on the fact of consistency. Hence why Delver did so well this time around. It is an aggressive deck that punishes poor draws, while it doesn't require too much to have playable hands to operate, plus it has BS to dig out of a mediocre draw.
Despite the fact that WotC wants creatures to be THE centerpiece of MTG which is clear if less than 10% of cards in the last Expansion did not have the word "creature" written on it, I get your idea. Non the less we had Vintage evolve around artifacts for the mayority of the time since it's creation and is in a chokehold of a subtype of "artifacts" called "creatures" since Feb 2010 with the whole metagame evolving around Lodestone Golem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
You are right about Vial to beat counterwalls, but aside from Countertop or some RUG openers there is nothing like a counterwall in Legacy, The Problem aren't endless counters; it's counters backed up by a clock which would bring is back to the easy splashables SFM, Delver, Goofy or TNN. The topic however wasn't counterwalls, but Brainstorm+Ponder+Fetches as an omnipresent core which people rather adapt than fight. The question I asked was "why" and I think we only scratched the surface
Edit:
I think this is the core of the current Problem: T1 Delver on the play (often backed up by the usual suspects) just runs away with the gameQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
The point of a fun format is that every archetype is competitve and can win you a tournament, it's not that every color is as strong as the other colors. Blue will always be the strongest color in every format, given enough time and therefore enough cards to enter the format card pool. Just look at Modern.
Legacy is already more diverse than any other format. By diversity i mean archetype representation, not color representation. And one color being more played than all the other colors is fine, especially when the majority of the playerbase has fun playing the format and the more played color is fun, complex and decision rich.
No one knows what will happen to Legacy if they ban Brainstorm. One can only guess. Saying that everything will be better is just dumb.
I think Combo decks will benefit a lot from the Brainstorm banning. The number of Delver decks would without a doubt decrease, the loss of Brainstorm would hurt fair decks more than combo decks. Maybe Combo will start to become really oppressive, maybe Jund/ NicFit will become opressive. Yeah maybe. That's just guessing. Everyone is guessing. The potential damage of a banned Brainstorm is too high, and i think it's a lot safer AND FUN FOR EVERYONE when Wotc introduces non blue TNNs in supplemental products, that make decks like Maverick good once again.
Personally Legacy is near perfect for me. I have two decks i love to play: Death and Taxes and Miracles. The first i start to like more and more because it stomps those dumb S&T strategies, is one of the best decks and is good against most combo decks (i play the Land Destruction list of the BoM with 4 Spirit etc.) One funny thing is that there is no deck in the format that plays lands that can win against the god draw of this deck. Even Delver God draw loses against Death and Taxes God draw.
It's interesting to see how everybody thinks that their archetype is probably off the worst. You say that combo might be oppressive. Lemnear (whom I'd classify as a Storm player) thinks that combo would essentially disappear from the meta without Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
While the meta rotates, it is kind of stall. Why? Delver is kinda oppressive, and so is Miracles (at least towards aggro) and both feed of Brainstorm. It's impossible to say how the meta would evolve, simply because two major format oppressors would be weakened alot with Brainstorm gone.
About the color thing: Nobody claims that the format needs to be a perfect split in color which is impossible, but when the format is loop-sided towards 70+% Brainstorm decks, it does kind of force you into a blue choice if you want to have the best shot at winning a tournament, which is again clearly showcased by the lasted Open. D&T mainly prevailed since it had a) a decent pilot b) a metagame to perform well and c) appearently draws/matches that weren't completely ass. Consistency is king, especially the longer the tournament goes, simply because the chance of shitty draws is lower.
About the D&T build: It's probably the closest I can think of that is competitive and what Lemnear wants in terms of an anti-blue metagame deck. Personally, I'm not a fan - it can do strong things, but is also alot weaker than the standard build when your plan doesn't run perfectly or against decks where the hate is irrelevant.
@Lemnear: I don't play Vintage, but from what I gather, Lodestone is a major oppressor of the metagame. If that's the case, why isn't it banned yet (since they obviously won't ban Workshop)?
People have cried for lodestone to be banned but, Moxen, bolt, claim, and other outs exist. Workshops also suffer the same fate over long events that legacy tomb chalice decks do: little card selection and inconsistent openers that can't be fixed with blue cards. Also being on the play impacts a shop deck heavily, so a few bad die rolls and you may have 2 losses. In legacy if you could get the play and tomb chalice 8 out of 9 rounds you would likely top 8, its just not that likely to get those openers and the play.
I did not say it would disappear, but shift towards FoW-check decks like Belcher as you can't sculpt winning hands with Brainstorm anymore to get rid of junk in your hand, which decks like storm or S&T require. I'd predict that shift because the decrese of consistant combo decks would likely result into a decrese of Spell Pierces and the like overall. After 4 years on Legacy storm I dare to say that I might have an idea about the impact of a BS-banning ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I disagree with the previously mentioned idea that Delver decks would decrese, because without BS, fighting back T1 Delvers on the play can become an herculean task considering the upcoming manadenial
D&T indeed punishes greedy keeps and shacky manabases with its Wastelands, Ports and Thalias while Vial gets around counters. We need more of such decks in the format and I think that 12-post is a perfect example of how to punish the Delver/Miracles metagame as well.
@Lodestone: I have no fucking clue why it's still legal as a 4-off and is not restricted. It turned Vintage right into the diceroll-format it was called by people since the formats intoduction which was plain nonsense until Lodestone saw print. I "played" too many games against MUD in which I was basically locked by losing the dice and having to witness Lodestone, Thorn, Chalice, 3Sphere or Phyrexian Metamorph making it impossible to play even a single spell. Trinisphere got restricted for being uninteractive, but the same concept attached to a 5/3 body is legal as a 4-off. WotC didn't give a fuck to this very day and I decided to do the same and sold my beta power during 2013. I usually pick up the Lodestone example if people call for 1cc aka turn 1 hatebears for Legacy...
Only played one match against shops and won. I guess playing against it more often would help
Saying that Miracle will be as weakened as Delver from a Brainstorm ban is just wrong. Yes Miracle would be weakened, but you have to consider that Delver decks are gone or like 5 % of the meta.
Delver is an aggro deck and if it is less played, we have no deck that comes out of the gate as fast and tries to kill you as fast as possible. Zoo will never make a comeback, because of SFM, SCM, Batterskull, TNN and of course Miracle which is still highly favored against Zoo even without Brainstorm.
The stock Miracle list if Brainstorm is banned will play 4 JTMS. They will also play 4 Counterspell, because there is less aggro in the format and it will still crush all the Maverick decks and will be favored against Jund. It will adapt to the slower metagame. So if you want dead decks like Maverick to exist once again, the only way to make them good again are new cards, not a banned Brainstorm.
Edit: From a Miracle players perspective i have no problem with Brainstorm being banned. I think it would be one of the least affected fair decks in Legacy. I would actually enjoy the fact that Delver is played a lot less in the format, because i always wanted to play 4 Counterspells in my Maindeck, but i think Delver & Brainstorm are very healthy for this format, because Delver is the only aggro deck in Legacy that is competitve. If you want Legacy to be better in some way banning some cards is not the solution.
I agree that it's kind of a problem that Brainstorm decks are more consistent than non Brainstorm decks, but the solution is not banning Brainstorm. Why take consistency away? Why not add consistency to other colors? I think Green Suns Zenith is one of the best designed cards in the last 5 years. Power is a reason, that we don't see any GSZ in Standard Formats, but with the upcoming Commander Set this year Wotc has the perfect opportunity to give more consistency to other colors without affecting Standard. Blue players will be happy, non blue players and Wotc because they sell more stuff.
You really think 12 post is anywhere near favored against a Delver of Secrets.deck? I played sometimes against 12 post on Magic Online, but i never faced it when i was 2-0 or 3-0 because Delver decks and Combo completely crush that deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Wouldn't Delver list just play Serum Visions or Preordain instead? Setting up a Delver with Brainstorm is okay, but rather the exception than the norm. The deck would lose power without Brainstorm, but I doubt would suddenly vanish from the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
Miracles only being able to put back drawn Terminus copies with Jacestorm seems like a huge blow to it since part of Terminus' power comes from being able to ignore clear Magic design rules due to being outlandishly cheap for its effect. And unlike Brainstorm, both Jace and SDT can be blocked by Revoker/Needle. But I can only speak from the perspective of a D&T player, but I'm certain Miracles would lose ground in this match-up due to this.
I think that if you dont resolve pithing Needle on Wasteland vs Delver, you basically lose right? Especially since they arent playing as many copies of Repeal