Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blaze22
BUG delver, ad nauseam, TES, sneak and show, RUG mirror, merfolk, jund (it would be crazy to do so), dredge, elves, goblins and any other combo or aggro matchup actually...
That card is too narrow, sulfur elemental is just better in this deck, trust me!
Great, you listed a bunch of combo decks. Sulfur elemental isn't great against those either. Sulfuric Vortex is strong against Jund. You have more effecient burn than they do and your creatures are evasive, and fat. By the time Sulfuric Vortex starts doing its work, you are already ahead. If you aren't, then we are playing two very different decks. You are probably counter heavy and reactive. My list is quite aggressive and I don't rely much on counter magic, so Jund isn't a particularly terrible match up when I have Vortex in. To enable Sulfuric Vortex VS Jund, counter their Tarmogoyfs, and start swinging. Midway through, drop Sulfuric Vortex to seal out the game. Liliana cannot stop Sulfuric Vortex.
Vortex also closes out against BUG Delver because Tempo Thresh is MUCH more aggressive than they are. They are more like a midrange deck with tempo elements. If you feel that you aren't winning in the damage race, then you are playing Tempo Thresh wrong...
You can have Goblins and Merfolks, but I don't think those are that relevant in the metagame now a days. Those are 2 tempo Decks which are better at the Tempo game anyway simply because of AEther Vial.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
I disagree with this completely. Tarmogoyf, even at a 3/4, gets in for 3 damage far, far sooner than a 3/3 Mongoose does.... I never cut threats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
This is all so dependent on the deck list.
I agree, I wouldn't board out Tarmogoyf too. He gets pretty big. But like wcm8 said, it really does depend on list. I usually just board out some useless stuff like Dismember and 2x Forked Bolt and bring in 2x Spell Pierce and 1x FOW. That's my list though. I don't usually cut any of my threats because I feel that Tempo Thresh plays the most efficient threats out of the box. There is no point changing this and dilluting it with Sulfur Elemental. A 3/2 for 3 mana split second is meh simply because it swings 2 turns later.
Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
Great, you listed a bunch of combo decks. Sulfur elemental isn't great against those either. Sulfuric Vortex is strong against Jund. You have more effecient burn than they do and your creatures are evasive, and fat. By the time Sulfuric Vortex starts doing its work, you are already ahead. If you aren't, then we are playing two very different decks. You are probably counter heavy and reactive. My list is quite aggressive and I don't rely much on counter magic, so Jund isn't a particularly terrible match up when I have Vortex in. To enable Sulfuric Vortex VS Jund, counter their Tarmogoyfs, and start swinging. Midway through, drop Sulfuric Vortex to seal out the game. Liliana cannot stop Sulfuric Vortex.
Vortex also closes out against BUG Delver because Tempo Thresh is MUCH more aggressive than they are. They are more like a midrange deck with tempo elements. If you feel that you aren't winning in the damage race, then you are playing Tempo Thresh wrong...
You can have Goblins and Merfolks, but I don't think those are that relevant in the metagame now a days. Those are 2 tempo Decks which are better at the Tempo game anyway simply because of AEther Vial.
I have a lot of junds in my meta and when I play vs them, I never feel like it's a bad matchup. the denial is brutal against them, just remove their shamans asap, always keep mana open for stifle, search aggresively for wastelands and you should be ok, when they're screwed drop a mongoose and win. I think vortex is useless in this matchup... again, I played it in side for months and I sided it in vs jund in multiple occasions but I always felt like it was not what I wanted to do.
and oh yeah, the BUG delver matchup (this is a hard one) if you drop your vortex, they auto-win. Tapping out vs a deck that can drop a goyf or tombstalker and protect it with countermagic doesn't seem like the greatest idea. smart BUG delver players will wait you to tap yourself out and when you do they'll drop their bombs. and when they do, you lose. And even if vortex resolves it can still be answered by decay if they're low in life points.
I am talking with the experience of a fairly high number of games which I played against those decks as they're both really common here... it won't help you. maybe it's a bit list-dependand. maybe if you play more than 6 consistent burn spells it could be a bit better, but still I would not rely on it to win those matchups...
Ok now, talking about turn//burn, last night I placed 3rd in a local tournament and I played vs a lot of goyf decks... I play 2 fire//ice maindeck as burn 5-6 and everytime I saw them I wanted them to be a turn//burn! now I'm seriously starting to believe that's a good card :smile:
Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
so i'm trying to learn how to play this deck and the biggest problem i'm having is sideboarding vs. fair decks. vs. unfair decks i just pull out some burn for less-dead cards, but fair decks, like junk, are escaping me. i dont want to side out all my counterspells because i need to protect my dudes, i think. i dont think i side out removal, threats, or cantrips though, unless i do? i've just been trimming my numbers of counterspells.
any suggestions?
Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
Divert is a big deal versus jund and junk, first off. Redirecting an abrupt decay or hymn can steal games. Next off, submerge and rough // tumble are vrry good too, esp with tribal on the rise.
oh yeah i know, im sorry i should have clarified. i don't know what cards to take out haha
Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...tr13/welcome#1
The GP Strasbourg top 8 RUG lists show that both Stifle and non-Stifle versions are viable contenders. Obviously Stifle can be a huge factor in winning the mirror. I like the inclusion of Flusterstorm; that card has been long overdue in becoming a format staple. The singleton Snapcaster Mage also seems good.
Don't leave your Sulfur Elementals at home! :cool:
Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
I put together the RUGb list featured on coverage for some testing: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...gpstr13/day2#9 I don't know if this is the right place to talk about it, but the deck is most similar to Canadian Thresh.
It's a lot of fun. Deathrite is incredible. I didn't really miss Goyf and not having to tap out on turn 2 is pretty nice. Smashed alphastryk playing Miracles 1-1 preboard 3-1 postboard for what that's worth.
The mana's not very good though... It feels like it needs 3 lands to operate everything instead of 2.
I wanted to switch an Underground to a Bayou after testing and the Counterspell is clearly awful. I also wanted Scours to fuel Mongoose + Deathrite - it took way too long to get thresh without them. I don't know if it's correct, but I cut 1 Ponder, 1 Force of Will (to the board), 1 Snare, and 1 Counterspell for the 4th Deathrite, the second Pierce, and 2 Scours. What do you guys think about this board:
3 Submerge
1 Reanimate
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Force of Will
Deathrite should help cast Clique on time and it was very very good against Miracles - instant speed and not graveyard dependent. I can also see it being important in the Stoneblade and combo matchups. I'm nervous about not having any wraths. Should I add some Engineered Plagues?
Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
I'm nervous about not having any wraths. Should I add some Engineered Plagues?
What happened to Fire Covenant?
I hadn't seen that card in ages, but the examples that you gave sounded alright.
Congratulations on the Decktech.
The sideboard looks pretty swell. Have you considered Dimir Charm? I've been running it in a UBGW list and I've been happy with it (hard counter for S&T and kills Bob, SFM, SCM, Lackey, DRS, etc.). Dimir also fuels Goose and DRS like Thought Scour.
Your list seems like it would do well against control and combo, but not well against mid-range, like Jund. What are this deck's tough match-ups?
Did you consider discard anywhere in the 75?
Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
I put together the RUGb list featured on coverage for some testing:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...gpstr13/day2#9 I don't know if this is the right place to talk about it, but the deck is most similar to Canadian Thresh.
It's a lot of fun. Deathrite is incredible. I didn't really miss Goyf and not having to tap out on turn 2 is pretty nice. Smashed alphastryk playing Miracles 1-1 preboard 3-1 postboard for what that's worth.
The mana's not very good though... It feels like it needs 3 lands to operate everything instead of 2.
I wanted to switch an Underground to a Bayou after testing and the Counterspell is clearly awful. I also wanted Scours to fuel Mongoose + Deathrite - it took way too long to get thresh without them. I don't know if it's correct, but I cut 1 Ponder, 1 Force of Will (to the board), 1 Snare, and 1 Counterspell for the 4th Deathrite, the second Pierce, and 2 Scours. What do you guys think about this board:
3
Submerge1
Reanimate2
Vendilion Clique1
Life from the Loam2
Surgical Extraction2
Flusterstorm1
Pyroblast1
Red Elemental Blast1
Grim Lavamancer1
Force of Will
Deathrite should help cast Clique on time and it was very very good against Miracles - instant speed and not graveyard dependent. I can also see it being important in the Stoneblade and combo matchups. I'm nervous about not having any wraths. Should I add some Engineered Plagues?
I was testing this version for GP Denver for awhile:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Divert
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Darkblast
The deck performed pretty damn well. Not gonna lie, I'm not much of a brewer, so I chickened out before Denver, but I always intended on working on this afterward. I like Tarmogoyf though, since he's a better topdeck than Delver and Mongoose (most of the time at least). Deathrite was awesome, as usual. I know I played against someone who had replaced Mongoose with Grim Lavamancers too which is interesting too (something to definitely consider), but I like Mongoose a lot. The SB is a mess but that's mainly just experimenting with different cards to see what was good.
Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Water_Wizard
What happened to
Fire Covenant?
I hadn't seen that card in ages, but the examples that you gave sounded alright.
Congratulations on the Decktech.
The sideboard looks pretty swell. Have you considered Dimir Charm? I've been running it in a UBGW list and I've been happy with it (hard counter for S&T and kills Bob, SFM, SCM, Lackey, DRS, etc.). Dimir also fuels Goose and DRS like Thought Scour.
Your list seems like it would do well against control and combo, but not well against mid-range, like Jund. What are this deck's tough match-ups?
Did you consider discard anywhere in the 75?
Whoah, just want to clear up that I'm not the person/people who came up with this Ugrb concept. I just stole it from coverage because it looked fun.
Fire Covenant looks...ok...but I'm not thrilled about a 3-cost doubly off-color sorcery that doesn't work if you're far behind. It's also pretty blowout if it gets countered.
I'm not quite sure what the tough matchups would be. I would think this is better against jund than RUG Thresh because Deathrite can eat Punishing Fire and Abrupt Decay is a real answer to Goyf, but that's speculation. Stifle and Wasteland going to have to be working overtime. I like that Deathrite gets through board stalls unlike Goyf, so hopefully that should help the Goblins and UG/x midrange matchups.
Dimir Charm seems sweet. Worth consideration.
I did wonder if the designers considered discard, but after playing the deck a bit I'm inclined to agree that it wants to play a more Thresh-like instant speed game than a tapout sort of tempo like BUG Delver. Stifle and discard seem at odds and there's only 2 B sources in the deck, so riding discard to victory seems sketchy.
Edit - just saw Ziveeman's post
That list is interesting...but it doesn't seem to have a plan. You're not playing Wasteland or Stile, so typically that means you want to be more of a zoo deck, but you're not playing any additional burn. Either that or you want to be more midrangey, but then you'd want Jace. I dunno, could be wrong about this stuff, but based on historical lists I think it's accurate.
Tarmogoyf is so underwhelming to me. You could be right that it's just impossible to play an aggressive deck without him though.
Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
One guy in the top-8 played my tech: Gitaxian Probe!
Wonder how he felt about those...
Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
One guy in the top-8 played my tech: Gitaxian Probe!
Wonder how he felt about those...
He said it was awesome. I've played with Gitaxian Probe in the deck since last year and I've always been a fan, but I cut it recently since slots were tight. I was definitely happy to see that room was found for it. The information is a lot more valuable than people think it is.
Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Yeah I first thought about it when a friend of mine said that it was sometimes hard to figure out whether to play a threat and put early pressure, or to keep mana open for Pierce or Stifle. He said he thought that putting early pressure was kind of the idea of the deck, but when the opponent has lots of value stuff to do, you want to be able to respond. So I said: why not figure out what he has via Gitaxian Probe? It doesn't slow you down if you don't want it to, and it tells you exactly how to optimally play your hand. At the expense of two life and a couple of slots in the deck. When I tried to create a list with it I also found it was hard to find the space for it. I went -1 Ponder, -1 Random (still testing, right now it's the fourth Stifle) for +2 Probe. Haven't played it in a tourney yet though, so I was pretty thrilled to see someone actually topping a GP with it. Can't be that bad if someone pilots them to a top score! :)
Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Yeah I first thought about it when a friend of mine said that it was sometimes hard to figure out whether to play a threat and put early pressure, or to keep mana open for Pierce or Stifle. He said he thought that putting early pressure was kind of the idea of the deck, but when the opponent has lots of value stuff to do, you want to be able to respond. So I said: why not figure out what he has via Gitaxian Probe? It doesn't slow you down if you don't want it to, and it tells you exactly how to optimally play your hand. At the expense of two life and a couple of slots in the deck. When I tried to create a list with it I also found it was hard to find the space for it. I went -1 Ponder, -1 Random (still testing, right now it's the fourth Stifle) for +2 Probe. Haven't played it in a tourney yet though, so I was pretty thrilled to see someone actually topping a GP with it. Can't be that bad if someone pilots them to a top score! :)
The Probe slot was where I would usually play Spell Snare. Initially it was in the place of 2 Ponders, but Ponder is just really good. I did replace Probes with Spell Snares after awhile though (especially after Show and tell waned and Snare was good again).
Quote:
Edit - just saw Ziveeman's post
That list is interesting...but it doesn't seem to have a plan. You're not playing Wasteland or Stile, so typically that means you want to be more of a zoo deck, but you're not playing any additional burn. Either that or you want to be more midrangey, but then you'd want Jace. I dunno, could be wrong about this stuff, but based on historical lists I think it's accurate.
Tarmogoyf is so underwhelming to me. You could be right that it's just impossible to play an aggressive deck without him though.
The lack of Wasteland/Stifle is why I didn't initially post this list here (I posted it over in the 4C Deathrite thread), but since you posted the other 4 color Delver deck, I figure I'd pitch in my list :). I cut Stifle from the list because there were so many 1-drops already. I spent too much time setting up a T1 Delver, Mongoose, or Deathrite that by the time I was in a position to actually cast Stifle, they had already gained too much traction and I wouldn't get a lot of value out of it. Wasteland was also cut because colored mana was an issue. I did miss some number of Wasteland though, so perhaps 2-3 might be warranted. You may have come to a different conclusion when testing, but those changes were basically what my experience with that version was like. I never considered cutting Tarmogoyfs though, but that's something I'll take into consideration should I choose to pick this deck up again :)
Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Probe seems like a good option, especially if you're running Stifle. It can help lead to optimal early-game sequencing, which is often the deciding factor in RUG games.
The way I see it, UGx tempo decks have 9-10 "Filter" slots to play around with. Obviously 8 of those are Ponder/Brainstorm, but for the last two you can consider Thought Scour, Gitaxian Probe, Preordain, Sylvan Library, or even Predict or other various options. Filter slots 9-10 shouldn't be overlooked. I think they are the "engine" of the deck and why this archetype is so successful.
Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
Deck looks neat, though it's a level of greedy that I'm wary of.
Also, why BURG, when you could just call it BUG in a RUG? I like more creative deck names.
Burg is the German word for castle.
