[Deck] Dredge

Running the pimp ice-train all the way to the Baltimore Legacy Open on Sunday:

// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
2 [TO] Ichorid
1 [M12] Flayer of the Hatebound

// Spells
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting
3 [TO] Breakthrough
1 [RAV] Darkblast

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TO] Ichorid
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [TO] Breakthrough
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [DKA] Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 [OD] Coffin Purge

I'm running Nature's Claim over the Chain spot as a definitive solution to permanent-based hate. Coffin Purge fills the role of dealing with annoying garbage like Life from the Loam and its targets, in addition to fighting other graveyard strategies. Chain to me doesn't really solve many answers (to me) that Claim can't already handle outside of Show and Tell decks, and by the time they get a chance to swing with anything you should already be grinding your gears.

Also, I am still sticking with twelve dredgers, as I feel that is the correct number. That Darkblast has won me several rounds in the last few weeks and it's ace against a lot of the format's prevalent creatures. It's also a proactive card that can dredge and put itself into the graveyard - something functionally that is incredibly important over the fourth Thug, which sits in your hand. At least Darkblast gives you the out you need to start dredging. The card is sick-good right now.

Paradise over Citadel. Lightning Bolt is everywhere at the moment and I'm not having three more damage on my plate when I already have to deal with other shit. I never forget to throw back a Chain Lightning if I have mana up - a play that has threatened victory over several players in recent weeks due to critical misplay. Paradise can make awkward situations with Coliseum, but that is something I've learned to accept and play around correctly, and it is rarely - if ever - an issue.

The fourth Breakthrough sits waiting in the sideboard for the Combo match-ups, including the Therapy which also comes in for Control. A big part of me wants to main-deck the Iona over Flayer, as I fully expect a lot of High Tide at this event. Granted, Flayer is damage on site and can threaten lethal, but Iona can virtually be just as good in the match-ups where you'd wished you had her instead.

Ray of Revelation gives you inevitability against problematic enchantments, which is also where Flayer shines (against cards like Elephant Grass, Moat and such). The list is incredibly powerful and I've been tweaking it now for some time, and I don't plan on coming home unless it's with that trophy.

With only 2 DR, how often do you find yourself in the situation where you want to flay your opponent, but can't reanimate the big troll?

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

@NewDredgePlayer: In all seriousness... Where does the deck get more constant with Entombs?

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I think that what he might mean by that is that Entomb increases the redundancy of certain components of the deck, which is, in all fairness, something that does add to a deck's consistency. The point that might get overlooked here, though, is that the value of all the other cards that we cast for one mana is that much more significant when compared to what Entomb brings to the table.

Honestly, I haven't had the chance to really test Entomb extensively, but just based on what I can project right now, I would probably agree that mulligans would be lessened with its inclusion, but at the cost of making underwhelming and unreliable lines of play much more common (with "underwhelming" being subjective) depending on what you would actually cut to make space for it.

I'll try playing around with it just for kicks. :wink:

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

@jares: You just got beaten by a triple post from NewDredgePlayer. =P :laugh::laugh::laugh:

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T-T-T-Triple Post! :eek:

NewDredgePlayer, I dub thee the new uncrowned king of multi-posts! :tongue:

I'm sure that I have quadruple posts somewhere though... :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Also, I am still sticking with twelve dredgers, as I feel that is the correct number. That Darkblast has won me several rounds in the last few weeks and it's ace against a lot of the format's prevalent creatures. It's also a proactive card that can dredge and put itself into the graveyard - something functionally that is incredibly important over the fourth Thug, which sits in your hand. At least Darkblast gives you the out you need to start dredging. The card is sick-good right now.

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I have also been very happy ever since I decided to go with 12 Dredgers instead of 11, but I haven't had the chance to play Darkblast competitively, as it has proven to be somewhat questionable during testing. The main point that I really like about it is that it can get itself in the graveyard (how I wish they would print a dredger with Cycling, haha :laugh:), but otherwise, I haven't had much appreciation for its utility. Could you expound more on this and enlighten me? As of the moment, I'm considering having it in the sideboard as the 13th Dredger, as I've been able to clear-up some SB space for flex slots.

Also, I noticed that you're not running too much graveyard hate, and it worries me that this might cause some problems when you run into Reanimator or the mirror.

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by jjjoness'

With only 2 DR, how often do you find yourself in the situation where you want to flay your opponent, but can't reanimate the big troll?

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A lot, I tried it for awhile to see what the DR/Flayer package was about and quickly added the 3rd DR.

@Izor

If you don't like SBing lands, then you'll never be able to play Lion's Eye Diamond. The entire point of Lion's Eye Diamond is that it gives you a chance vs. Storm, Reanimator and other ~T3 combo decks without having to commit SB space to specific hate across multiple matchups. In reality those two lands are saving space on cards like Mindbreak Trap or Faerie Macabre etc. because Lion's Eye Diamond is doing the work for you pre-board.

Also, it's not hard to add another land or two, you can trade consistency in Dredgers by SBing a Golgari Thug for a land and you only "need" 3 Ichorid MD. Cutting a Pimp is a pretty interesting idea also, that card is so incredibly lackluster and it only really serves to set up Cephalid Coliseum for turn 2.

@random

Speaking of Cephalid Coliseum, Another potentially odd idea I thought of while skimming thru' the old Dredge threads is Lotus Petal for speeding up Cephalid Coliseum activations, anybody tried 1 shot mana in the deck?

Hollywood, Y U NO PLAY 4 THERAPIES?

Srsly though, is there a reason?

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Hollywood, Y U NO PLAY 4 THERAPIES?

Srsly though, is there a reason?

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People seem to have completely forgotten which cards actually win games in favor of "danger of cool things" Dread Return packages. You can't play that non-sense unless you cut good cards for it, there's no space.

3 DR it's the way to go playing the Flayer. 2 will slow you down if you don't have the 2nd one to return the troll for the kill and that turn might be key in some MUs...

@Hollywood: With only two dread returns I would run Sun Titan or Iona as your target.

I also think the fourth Cabal Therapy would be nice to squeeze in your deck. I believe four Cabal Therapies are better than any dread return package against all combo decks.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

People seem to have completely forgotten which cards actually win games in favor of "danger of cool things" Dread Return packages. You can't play that non-sense unless you cut good cards for it, there's no space.

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While I couldn't agree more, I'm not entirely sure if Flayer falls into that category.
To me it seems like it is somewhat a compromise between being able to race combo (which FKZ does better) and turning off aggro. It's almost the same as FKZ, with the difference that you need two DR to win. Against aggro it is better than FKZ imho. You don't need bridges to get it going (although one makes things way easier) and flaying your opponent works, no matter how stalled the board is.

That being said, I would not run Flayer with only two DR, which makes it arguably worse than FKZ.

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Originally Posted by jjjoness'

That being said, I would not run Flayer with only two DR, which makes it arguably worse than FKZ.

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I would not run FKZ without three dread returns and a Sphinx, elsewise you won't really get value out of your FKZ either.

Thank you all for your feedback. Most all of the points you've brought up I've taken into consideration. I have Sun Titan in the Flayer's slot. He was in my build just recently after I cut him, but on second thought I can see why he operates better under double-DR as opposed to triple-DR.

Additionally, I do run a set of Therapies, but one in my board for Combo and Control. The deck is already lightning-fast enough where having four Therapies sometimes isn't necessary, especially with fewer Ichorids. It just wins games flat-out like it should, and as you all know lists can be tight. Two of the deck's recent highest performances played only three Therapies - relegating one to the board. Game one I feel as though four is just a little much, because those are games we win anyways.

Is it really worth trying to squeeze it in? Perhaps, but to be honest I've found that three is all I generally have used by the time game one ends. If an opponent lets a Breakthrough or another draw spell resolve, what else really matters where three Therapies aren't enough?

Also, Darkblast as I mentioned is really good here. Its utility can be huge and it places itself into the graveyard, which is actually very important. I've seen some lists run ten to eleven dredgers, and I'm running twelve, so that's more consistent from a dredging standpoint.

Thanks for the feedback.

I'll make sure to give live updates tomorrow throughout the day - no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I'll make sure to give live updates tomorrow throughout the day - no matter what.

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Keeping the dream alive...5-1 at SCG: Baltimore.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Keeping the dream alive...5-1 at SCG: Baltimore.

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Nice! Hopefully we can see you in top 8.

I believe Hollywood's on camera now! He just won game 1 on turn 2 :)

Did I just see some guy playing dredge against maverick and forget to put 2 narcomoeba?

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Originally Posted by Lt. Quattro

Did I just see some guy playing dredge against maverick and forget to put 2 narcomoeba?

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yeah apparently, i can't think of any reason not to pit them into play. But he would have won either way i guess.

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Originally Posted by AEnesidem

yeah apparently, i can't think of any reason not to pit them into play. But he would have won either way i guess.

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Yeah I also saw, but I was hoping I would see some tight technical play since I'm missing some of that in my life.

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Originally Posted by Kage

I believe Hollywood's on camera now! He just won game 1 on turn 2 :)

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Nope... Hollywood is Michael Keller and he is 6-2 right now =(

Hollywood also always says that he plays really really tight, so he wouldn't miss 2 Narcomoeba-triggers.