Serum powder, anyone? There's a reason for this in dredge and Espresso staxxQuote:
Originally Posted by Koby
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Serum powder, anyone? There's a reason for this in dredge and Espresso staxxQuote:
Originally Posted by Koby
To be fair: The same player would also tell you that Brainstorm as a 4 of would be ridicoulus broken. I am not advocating the banning of BS, nor the unbanning of Workshop, but when you want to look at Vintage (especially their restricted list) for a reasoning behind bannings, two of the cards that come to mind are Brainstorm and Ponder and pretty much 80% of ANT/TES.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
You misunderstood me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignithas_
I am not saying Workshop should stay banned because it is a pillar of Vintage, but rather was saying I have seen the card in action. It does broken stuff, quickly. If it got unbanned in Legacy it would destroy the format all the while laughing at the DCI.
Brainstorm as a 4-of is okay in Legacy and not in Vintage, because in Vintage, the cards you are drawing are more powerful. The same isn't true for Workshop - the most stupid card you would be casting with Workshop is restricted in Vintage and legal in Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignithas_
Pretty much the official reasoning for restricting Brainstorm and ponder in vintage while I experienced the most fun ever had in vintage in the era of gush+scroll+BS+ponder personally^^.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awaclus
The joke of todays vintage is that WotC/DCI reduced the "soft-tutors" and cheap draw fixing and keep on printing resistors and denial for workshop (Lodestone, Thorn, revoker, grafdigger,etc) which is counterintuitive and miserable for the format.
Brainstorm/ponder aren't very good under the influence of 3sphere or other resistors ^^
/history
The card that is holding Legacy Stax back from being good is Workshop, obviously. However, depending on how much Vintage you've played, do you really want that in the format, especially with 4 Trinisphere?
In Vintage, at least you know Stax is a dominant archetype, and you sideboard 7 cards for it, and you move on. In Legacy, you couldn't dedicate the slots to reliably beating it without sacrificing all your other matchups. Whether this is good or bad is up to you, obviously. I like Stax, but Workshop might be a bit much.
-Matt
Im still advocating the banning of Brainstorm.
Oath and black vise are really shitty ideas. Survival too. Maverick is already dtb and Patrick chapins gw retainers list was better than vengevival anyway.
Oath would invalidate creatures in the entire format, unless they are playing with blue. It would be combo, oath, pure control. Iona would be the main offender, though I can see tendrils lists splashing 4 oath for Grislebrand.
Black vise would make the meta more RUG infested. Black vise is stupid because blue decks actually die to it, whereas dumb tempo and aggro decks can sit on their 4 card hands.
The others I' don't really care about. Oath of Druids though, is like unbanning bazaar of Baghdad. it would be everywhere, in every list
For anyone thinking about workshop unban: you will die so hard with whatever dck you bring out
Sideboards would be
6-7 dredge hate
6-7 shop hate
1/3 slots for the 30 decks that are playable now, but will disappear quickly with the unban of shop
Workshop trinisphere or sphere of resistance or shop monolith lodestone golem will kill everyone.
3 sphere followed by tangle wire or precursor golem or wasteland crucible or smokestack or metalworker is basically GG
Also,, don't even think about loa. Leave those lands to vintage
Uh yes ... as you name it: Survival + Loyal Retainers for Griselbrand ... nice GW draw Engine xP
We had an entire year of turn 1 Trinispheres in 1.5. It was a very good deck, but it wasn't oppressive, because posts like this;
Are from a delusional fantasy land where having an opening hand of Workshop, Workshop, Trinisphere, Wurmcoil is described as "relaible."Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Which isn't to say that there's no possibility that, if it were unbanned (which it won't be, more for price reasons than anything else,) Workshop would need to be banned again.
But the people that think that it's bonkers off the wall powerful are the same people that thought Temporal Mastery was going to break the format as far as I can tell.
If Workshop gets unbanned you can play the Vintage MUD in Legacy. That deck beats powered combo and control decks hard. What do you think it would do to unpowered Legacy decks which are not hatebears?
I don't think Wizards wants a format where more emphasis is put on the die roll than other factors like, say, skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Even more than that, however, if we ignore card price issues, is that Wizards already has a format where Workshop is a pillar of the metagame. Legacy needs to have it's own identity and unbanning Workshop would only serve to weaken it.
Comparing Temporal Mastery to Wokshop is so asinine I can only guess as to why you're being so disingenuous.
Phew ... then I'm glad that I was one of the guys that thought TM was completely overrated from the beginning so this doesn't address me^^Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Non the less, as a ol' Vintage player i'm still convinced Workshop would be bad for Legacy because of the reasons already mentioned.
/causa Workshop (hopefully)
I play MUD in Vintage. Porting it to Legacy you lose 5x Moxes, Black Lotus, Sol Ring, Tolarian Academy, Strip Mine, and Mana Crypt. At the same time you gain 4x Trinisphere. This is what we can refer to as a fair trade because turn 1 Trinisphere is just that broken in a deck with Workshops.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Yes I realize the exact scenario I describe isn't reliable, but the deck as a whole would be. If it's not turn 1 Trinisphere it's going to be turn 1 Chalice or turn 1 Sphere of Resistance or turn 1 Crucible of Worlds. If it's not turn 2 Wurmcoil Engine it's going to be turn 2 Lodestone Golem or turn 2 big dumb beater or turn 2 Tangle Wire or just another Sphere then another one after that.
Don't dare compare me to someone who wanted Temporal Mastery pre-banned. I played Legacy back when it was 1.5 and Workshops were legal, I've played Vintage with and against Workshop, I've played Legacy since the beginning. This is not me pulling conjecture out of my ass. The difference between me and those people is I have mountains of play experience with the card and I am not a fucking moron.
Practically no one who plays MUD in Vintage would tell you Brainstorm should be banned in Legacy. Please take a poll over at the ManaDrain and get back to me with what I already know to be true. Even the people who actually MAKE the banned lists and have the power to ban BS and Ponder don't agree with this particular point of view. Also just short of no one wants Workshop legal in Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignithas_
The fact that Legacy decks are unpowered is actually part of why turn 1 Trinisphere isn't going to be as devastating as you think, or as it would be in Vintage; peoples' lands don't cost 3 mana under a Tsphere the way they do in Vintage.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
The notion that the legalization of Mishra's Workshop in Legacy would be safe is absolutely ridiculous.
Moxen/Ring help with the Shops match up more than hurting it would due to any resistor they happen to play. If Shops is on the draw playing out artifact mana is what keeps you in the game for most decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
If you get Shops it's only fair I get real dredge decks.
Can we have Earthcraft now?
If Modern is allowed to have infinite Pestermite/Exarch/Angel tokens, why can't Legacy have infinite Squirrel tokens? I mean you have to be a moron to draw a game when you have that much tokens. I mean Mesmeric Orb + Basalt Monolith combo is allowed in Legacy, why not Earthcraft + Squirrel's Nest?
Instead of arguing about whether workshop is safe in legacy, I challenge you to play ANY legacy deck against a deck with 4 workshop and 4 trinisphere. The workshop deck will win the grand majority of the time. Another small reason workshop isn't getting unbanned is because of the price tag sure cards aren't banned 'because' they have a high price tag but I believe the DCI might take secondary market price into consideration when unbanning a card. If workshops was legacy legal, a playset would be 4 grand quite easily in my eyes because it would warp the fuck out of the format. I know what I would be playing if workshop was legacy legal and that would be a deck with 4 workshops and 4 trinispheres, because turn 1 trinisphere is literally the best play in the game against any deck without workshops. Even in the mirror turn 1 3sphere can be absolutely bonkers, as the opponent could very easily not have a workshop of their own/get timewalked. Then the next turn could be crucible into wasteland/GG, I know I don't want workshop legal same with almost everyone else playing the format. Also of note is that if workshop was unbanned and skyrocketed in price then was rebanned the card would likely plummet in value, pissing off a ton of players who had invested in the card because workshop being legal would force anyone who wanted to play the format seriously to own 4 workshops, as it would be the best deck in the format by far. There is nothing remotely fair about workshop, the notion that it could be legalized and not wreck the format is absolutely ridiculous but why believe me? Tell the DCI to legalize workshop, I bet they laugh their asses off at that suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Also of note, the notion that people having 'real' manabases i.e. just lands and no moxen helps the folks who play against turn 1 3sphere is ridiculous. So Someone goes flooded strand, pass. I go turn 1 3sphere. My opponent lacks an answer. They can play another land and pass sure but you just time walked them. If you're on the play and go turn 1 3sphere, that's a double time walk against any normal legacy deck that literally draws mana from only lands that tap for one mana. While you have the potential to go turn 2 wasteland, lodestone golem, crucible, etc. etc. to advance your own board state while your opponent does nothing. Resolving a crucible after 3sphere is typically GG's automatically especially if they have a wasteland. Or you could just go turn 2 wurmcoil and bash in, lodestone golem works just as well. As does karn and a lot of artifact creatures that could be run in a hypothetical MUD list. Also of note, an unanswered turn 1 metalworker off of workshop = GG's most of the the time.
Really people, I can't stand reading this crap about unbanning workshop in legacy. Are you retarded? Bringing mean MUD from vintage (- other mana Vintage acceleration) into legacy is just ridiculus..