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Concerning the Burn problematic:
I started to try one Collective Brutality in SB. IT's a neat removal against most creatures in Legacy, can be used against Combo, is excellent against Burn and works fine with a Chalice on 1.
Honestly, I never drew it, but I'll keep on testing this :D
Brutality is fantastic, I've used in DGA and Jund as well as a 1 of mainboard, and have loved the results so far. Such a versatile card. I'd agree its definitely worth testing in the main in Aggro Loam if you expect it to be good vs the meta, and in the side otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuhl
I'm not really sure how to respond to that? I think they're powerful wizards. They consistently place well at our Australian events?Quote:
Originally Posted by NEELEY
I have a good record against the better Miracles players in the Australian meta, there's not much else I can say really.
okay... you must be better. 4 out of 5 matches winning vs good miracles players. I better start practicing.Quote:
Originally Posted by juzamjimjams
For me I guess it is against random miracles players in NYC. Some of them are pretty good, some are newer to the deck. The most consistent testing I do for the matchup is with CutthroatCasual, tho IDK what his reputation is here. I might have a chance to do some testing with Sam in the future (he tends to diversify decks for local events and testing sessions).
OkayQuote:
Originally Posted by NEELEY
I mean I'm more than happy to discuss what's going on in my miracles matches? What seems to be going wrong for you?
Let's try and be constructive.
Not gonna lie, those percentages seem absurd.
I can't talk too much because most of my testing is with a friend of mine who knows the matchup in and out. my winning percentage against him is around 40%. However when I go online the % rises up to 55-60% because there are a lot of players that I think don't know how to play with miracles....
I believe we are not favored against a player who knows what is doing, but that is my take on that....
I feel like this is the first I'm hearing of miracles not being a great matchup. Asking a couple years ago I don't think anyone would have said there was a problem. In fact often when I do talk about how I play the matchup differently I'm told the matchup is good enough and there is no need to improve/change.
It definitely helps to get free wins off of players who think miracles is the control deck in the matchup, but I find games against in-the-know players to be very rewarding. Basically it turns into this complex dance where we are playing around or minimally answering each others haymakers.
Btw, juzamjimjams, have you had a chance to rest pridemage?
I'm not saying the miracles match isn't slightly favored. But 80% to me seems like a stretch. I need to start keeping a spreadsheet of my games to give accurate results. Who know maybe it's higher than I think.
I kept a spreadsheet when I was playing a lot of Loam (6 mo-1 year ago) and I got between 50 and 55%. It was a lot higher when the deck was new and people didn't know what was going on, but once Miracles players are prepared for the deck it's considerably harder to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by NEELEY
I think I'll try and get a spreadsheet going too, what would you say is a good sample size to actually produce anything of substance?
Yeah I'm actually loving it, it has much more application than expected.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
I know you run one in the main, and I'm trying to find a slot for it myself tbh.
So I've been off of the DD combo for a while and I just plain miss it,tho I'm probably just using it as a crutch to win. I also was running DRS but will drop it for the second library, I feel the library advances our plan much better than a singleton DRS. Do you guys think the mana base could support the DD combo,a cabal pit and 2 cycle lands?
I'm currently playing Stage-Depths, Cabal Pit, and 2x Tranquil Thicket (and 1drs, 2 library) and my mana generally does not have issues. Tho I'm not playing Lili, which is pretty important to consider. With her, it is a lot harder to play utility lands.
There have been successful lists that have played both. Consider taking one of them and swapping the pit in for a fetch or a grove.
30 games/10 matches is about where you start seeing representative results. It takes a long time to meaningfully fill the sheet in for more than a handful of decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by juzamjimjams
Ok so this seems like a deck I want to play. Is there a best build and I only play paper is the tabernacle a must?
Also I can't really find a primer for the deck can some one inform me as to why one would want to play this deck. It's good and bad matchups.
I want to build it as I'm mostly a jund player when it was hot in standard and I play it in modern and I like grinding out opponents. Maybe this is the deck for me? Maybe not? I do have bug delver built and it's fun but feels like it has no way of winning any games past the first few turns
I went through all of this when I picked up the deck a while ago. If you look 2 post above you apocolyps6 in his sig "barebones 4c loam website" there's a sorta primer there that goes over some your questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo4source
There are a few builds out there http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15040&d=291033&f=LE is the standardish build. The variation come from whether or not you want to play the dark depths combo, number of sylvan libraries (1-2), and whether you want a singleton DRS. Other cards include maelstrom pulse, toxic deluge, and cabal pit.
I would say this deck can grind with the best of them and have an option to just win with the combo, but thats not all the deck can do. With chalice, loam, knight, and wasteland you can go prison deck too. Another deck you can look into if you like delver is Team America that uses delver and True name nemesis as finishers.
Regarding the tabernacle there a thread on reddit that goes over this https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...rd_tabernacle/.
Edit:Typos, more stuff
I think you'll like the deck, but there's a lot more finesse to 4c Loam than there is to something like Modern Jund (or Shardless or Jund in legacy) since Knight and GSZ give you much more of a toolbox feel than those other decks, where you just kinda jam value spells and one for or two for one your opponent into the ground. Knowing when to Loam, or when to activate Knight as opposed to attacking with it takes some time to learn. The upside is you get a lot more play out of the deck than your standard B/G value pile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo4source
There isn't really a best list, but if you look around, you'll notice there's kinda a commonly accepted shell of around 55 cards or so, with a little room to customize the rest to your taste. Regarding Tabernacle, it's definitely not a must. At most it's only a one-of sideboard card, so don't feel like you have to go blow your life savings to get a tablernacle if you want to play this deck because you most certainly do not.
Regarding good and bad matchups, it will sound like a cliché but I think this deck has the tools to beat any deck put in front of it. I tend to think of it more in terms of good and bad hands. You don't have Brainstorm or other cantrips so you're kinda at the mercy of what your deck decides to give you, so you have to be unafraid to mull to help find what you need in a given matchup. Also, being a chalice deck, there's a pretty big discrepancy being on the play vs. on the draw. I will say that in general, the worst matchups I've encountered are fast combo (think B/R reanimator, TES, Tin Fins), Sneak and Show, and Grixis Delver. Decks trying to cheese you with maindeck blood moon (painter, big red, etc) can also be bad. May God have mercy on your soul if you don't draw any mox diamonds. For what it's worth, I think this deck handles combo much much better than something like Shardless does though (Shardless and Jund also just fold to a fast blood moon whereas 4c Loam can actually fight though and make a game of it).
I don't really know were to put this, but i sadly won't be playing this deck anymore, as yesterday when i wanted to stream some matches I found out that someone had emptied out my account. So don't let my lack of future finishies stop you guys from playing this deck.
Get in contact to Wizards ASAP m8. fuck the stream that is hard money that is gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsOle
I've already done that, but I don't think I'll get my cards back, i guess we'll see in a few weeks, as they said it would take two weeks for them to investogate evrything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas