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Hi i just prefer trinisphere too against mentor decks because of chaining sensei's and after they usually plays more pyroblasts and anyway what disenchant or removal they have it costs 3mana and is simply fine to move game to late turns also against omni when they probe you and they see trinisphere and krosan grip with some triger cards they usually can do nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by into_play
Did anyone else spot the top 16 cloudpost deck from eternal weekend featuring 4 terminus, meddling mage & 1 tundra?
Oh man... yes exactly this! why not emperion? the ugin plan screws our SnT plan – badly (I feel bad every time I see those 2 together…) ! why run ugin when we can just power SnT with emperion?? SnT titan is (if resolved) one of our strongest plays right? I think I’m leaning towards something similar at this point….Quote:
Originally Posted by maCHOOga
Good for that player! Repeal hasn't been cutting it with SFM being MIA. Terminus is a powerful answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by maCHOOga
We need permanent based combo hate, and Meddling Mage is an excellent answer.
White splash to simply solve two current struggles in the current meta game! And it looks like it paid off!
For what it's worth, I prefer Trinisphere, although I've run it considerably more frequently than Arcane Laboratory when I've done my own builds. In a pinch, 3sphere can come in against any deck that has a really tight mana base: pretty much any deck except MUD, Miracles, and us. The thing I like most about it, though, is that over time it hurts us less and less. We just want to take "enough" turns to take over the game, and as we get to that point, I just don't care about 3 mana for an Expedition Map or Crop Rotation. In a sense it already sort of functions as an Arcane Laboratory in that with few exceptions, most players packing countermagic are probably only going to be able to cast one spell anyway, and if a Delver player somehow gets to six lands...are you really that upset?Quote:
Originally Posted by into_play
I followed this player around and watched some of their games. Terminus is obviously a beast. I like the commitment to a tiny color splash. Saw them play against loads of grixis, which their build hoses. Also they had a Savannah as 2nd white source.Quote:
Originally Posted by maCHOOga
I have tested the deck both card for card and with adjustments I would make, and I still greatly prefer my version. This is what I ran day 2 of Eternal Weekend in the 40 Duel for Duals event. Missed top 8 on some incredibly unlucky draws (38 cards seen and zero titans/ 4 waste 3 stifle rug hands in first 7 turns Two times...)
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [OD] Island (4)
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
1 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [US] Show and Tell
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [MMA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [MMA] Engineered Explosives
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
I have been loving nature's claim more and more with trickbind. Now I can repeal and nature's claim chalices. I also side in nature's claim against anything pressuring my life total that could possibly run null rod (Rug/BuG/Grixis) for the recuperative kill, or also life gain on my artifacts.
White gives the deck strong options. I miss Ethersworn Canonist in the board. Would be funny to run him in the main, but he turns on enemy creature removal and can bad in non-combo matchups.
I also would tweak the maindeck. Repeal seems lackluster compared to Wipe Away or even Oblivion Stone.
No Expedition Map and the heavy Show and Tell commitment have to be discussed as well.
I'm running a similiar list, trying to splash into blue and not white. Main difference is the presence of exploration, I love this card. A few question:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
1) Did you consider to put a Reclamation sage instead a Krosan grip? Same effect, but A LOT better with Omnitell.
2) Why not Repeal? Tricks with that card and sensei/tabernacle are great, and is a nice defensive card and drawing card.
3) Should Trickbind replace needles against wasteland? Is not more effective to cast a needle, than stay with open mana fearing a waste?
4) 3 Engineered....3? what do you fear so much to put them mainboard?
5) Wouldn't be better to put an oblivion stone instead a Ugin? 1 and 1. Against mud ugin is useless, and oblivion is much faster.
Thank you for the input Zot! I think you convinced me to stick to the sphere. In the games where we would cast it, we will probably have dropped the one-mana artifacts in our hand by then. I actually think it could give Miracles some headaches at certain moments of the game, although I probably wouldn't bother to bring it in against them. And Laboratory could really hinder our explosive end-of-game plays (think drawing with Kozilek into Trinkets or even a Titan).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
For as long as I have been playing builds with blue, I have always ran four Show and Tell and have never wanted to cut even one of them. A three mana spell in a deck that otherwise hardcasts 6+ mana creatures is so unique in function and power for our deck. Against all the current Decks to Beat besides Omni-Tell, there is almost no drawback to attempt to cast one, and whatever monstrosity you put in will almost certainly be better than anything your opponent has. This player's list has three Platinum Emperions, so a heavy eight big creatures to dump into play must have worked even better with his four Show and Tells. Seriously people, play the fuck out of Show and Tell; you will regret not doing so if it ever gets banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlock
Doing so well without Expedition Map is impressive, though he had less bullet lands than most (no Glacial Chasm, no Tabernacle, Bojuka Bog in the sideboard). I know a lot of people consider Map to be the jankiest card of the deck, but for me it always seemed fundamental to the deck's ramping ability and the instant speed shuffle effect is always nice. Brainstorm and Top are a lot of draw/search though, so finding the right lands must not have been much of a concern to him. All the Terminus probably gave him alternatives than needing to ramp quickly.
Here's his list, since I haven't seen it posted in here yet:
Creature (8)
3 Platinum Emperion
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Sorcery (8)
4 Show and Tell
4 Terminus
Instant (11)
3 Repeal
3 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
1 Swan Song
Artifact (8)
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
Land (25)
3 Tropical Island
2 Vésuva
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Tundra
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
Sideboard (15)
2 Swan Song
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Sacred Ground
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Meddling Mage
3 Flusterstorm
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
Not going to put words into Rock's mouth, but to answer a few of your questions based on my experience:Quote:
Originally Posted by Morden
1) Reclamation Sage has the problem of any triggered ability coming from a permanent dropped into play from their Show and Tell: in response, the Omni-Tell player can Cunning Wish for a Trickbind and counter the ability. Same reason why Ashen Rider is not the greatest defense against Omni-Tell. Krosan Grip is impossible for them to stop, but you need a triggered ability off your permanent put into play to break up their priority.
3) Trickbind has a lot more uses than just countering Wasteland activations. As Rock mentioned, it can counter the Chalice of the Void trigger countering one of your one mana spells. It can counter the Storm trigger from a lethal Tendrils of Agony. And if you have enough mana already against Omni-Tell, you could drop a Primeval Titan off of their Show and Tell, Trickbind their Emrakul's extra turn trigger, and then cast your own Emrakul the following turn. This requires a lot to go right, but the split second making Trickbind uncounterable can really make this possible.
5) Although Ugin can take more turns to get on into play than the Oblivion Stone and subsequent board wipe, Ugin impacts the game more as it doubles as a win condition. Not to mention, relying on Oblivion Stones makes you even weaker to Null Rod.
thank you for your answer man. I understood all your points, and I partially agree, but:
1) You are right, but without trini or laboratory you have to stay open mana against omni to cast krosan, and hope that he has not omni+emrakul already in had. Hard conditions....with trini I can accept no sage (thought I don't like, I prefer to have both), but without
3) Indeed, great card, and I'm thinking to add it to my list. But no needles? really? wasteland, jace, liliana, karn, aether vial, rishadian port, thespian stage, deathrite shaman, sensei (against miracle it's not so crazy to name it...that's why I prefer to have 3 sensei and 1 mirri and 1 sylvan library in my deck), fetchlands (yes, name scalding tarn against omni can make game really hard for him) :D, only for 1 cmc card. Ok, trickbind is uncounterable and it's not destroyed by decay, but you need 2 mana and you can make it only once.
5) Yes, I think it depends a lot of your meta....in my situations, I have often the necessity to wipe out as soon as possible, that's why I prefer oblivion. Null road is used only in sideboard, we have krosan, it's not a big problem. The big problem is if we find a deck based on artifact (painter, mud, chalice also), oblivion can really make the difference, since mainboard we don't have so much against them.
Edit: I meant Oblivion Ring, a card which is enabled due to the white splash.Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlock
The Platinum Emperion plan would be much more appealing if it would affect the Omni Tell matchup, but we can't have it all ;)
When analyzing cards for the Omni Tell matchup it comes down to a couple of different cases, depending on what card they drop via S&T and the rest of their hand. The strongest approach is to stop the S&T, because every 'post S&T hate card' does fall short in one or more cases. We have stuff like Meddling Mage and Flusterstorm in that category. Post S&T we have either Oblivion Ring + Canonist or Wipe Away + Venser which cover all cases together (note that we can combine Oblivion Ring with Venser or whatever as well). Also note that Grip does the same as Wipe Away in this matchup.
A few thoughts off topic, sorry... Does anyone else play Thespian's Stage plus Dark Depths? I play both cards from time to time in the UG build and most of the time it's great!
A) It's an additional win con (esp. against BUG decks)
B) Stage almost fits in the traditional build
C) there are usually 5-6 cards to get us the missing part (Crop Rotation and Maps) in addition to normal filtering cards in form of Brainstorm and SDT
D) both parts can be fetched via Titan
E) a single part of the combo "protects" our other lands most of the time, since opponents usually safe their Wasteland
F) same is often true for protecting the Titan: opponents tend to safe a copy of StP for Marit Lage
G) If ML gets sworded, we get 20 life, which means 2-3 extra turns against fair decks
Personally, I strongly dislike the combo in U/G lists, strongly dislike the combo in Mono-G BoozeCube-style lists, and use the combo in Mono-G John Kassari-style lists. This combo works in Kassari's lists in part because he utilizes Into the North to fetch both basic snow lands as well as Dark Depths itself. This is a luxury you won't have in U/G lists or a BoozeCube list. For the other lists, for every win you snag out of nowhere, there are at least as many, if not more, games where the combo is clunky and awkward, ends up in my hand, or otherwise puts me in a situation where I wish the cards were pretty much anything else. Also, you'd probably almost never want to fetch out the pieces with Primeval Titan: Thespian's Stage will enter the battlefield tapped. This wouldn't matter if not for the fact that if you're tutoring for "I want to win now", you'd probably rather just get Cloudpost and Eye of Ugin, then Cloudpost and Karakas, and take all of the turns with Emrakul. This leaves your opponent with no avenue to do anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
If Dark Depths ends up in your hand, you're usually in bad shape. If either piece ends up getting hit with Wasteland or is discarded, you're in bad shape. You need at least four lands - Depths, Stage, and two lands that produce mana, barring playing against another Cloudpost deck - to even attempt to activate your combo. If Marit Lage ends up eating a Swords to Plowshares or a sacrifice effect, you're down to two lands. In contrast, you can cast Primeval Titan on four lands, putting you in a far superior position. The reason this combo works well in Lands shells is because you can vomit out multiple lands per turn (Exploration and Manabond), reduce the land requirements for activating the combo as well as give the lands themselves something to do before you combo off (Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth), and easily get binned pieces back as often as necessary (Life from the Loam). Loam plays very poorly with Eldrazi, and if you start adding in other cards to enable the combo, now you're just playing CrappyLandsShell.dec.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Truth. That should be the post # we link to every time this question gets asked in the future.
Thanks a lot for those great thoughts! :-) This will help me a lot while building the deck I need for my meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Me too I wanna thank you zotmaster, I will read every day your post in the future to avoid the temptation to use depths :laugh:
ok guys, I need some opinions from the ones who play the blue versione. For the moment, I left the GW build, I made tons of game with the blue one and I loved it.
so, the deck
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Pithing Needle
4 Primeval Titan
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Mirri's Guile
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Expedition Map
1 Sylvan Library
3 Exploration
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Brainstorm
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
1 Island
2 Show and Tell
3 Repeal
1 Trinket Mage
1 Oblivion Stone
3 Crop Rotation
2 Vesuva
sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Trinisphere
1 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Elephant Grass
2 Spell Pierce
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sphere of Resistance
As you can see, the build is pretty standard. The most "strange" things are:
1) Exploration: "best defense is attack". I don't think this deck can have the luxury to control the game....no counter, no removal, no discard cards, we have only defense against other: crop, needle, repeal. Exploration really makes a lot of pressure to the opponent with the right card. Show and tell is plan B, and not so good in a meta full of omnitell....
2)tabernacle: mainboard. If exploration speeds us, tabernacle slow down a lot of deck. Useless? Crop it.
Sideboard is a work in progress.....
1) why pierce? first because at the moment I don't have fluster XD. In general I don't think they are so bad (please don't compare pierce/fluster with magus/candelabra.... -_- :P ). Having the possibility to counter planeswalker, artifact and enchantment is a very little plus.
2) surgical is also sooo great against wasteland. No needle? ok, waste my cloudpost, but it will be the last waste you'll use! also great obviously against combo, graveyard and so on
sorry emergency now, I will write more tomorrow!
@MaCHOOga
The top 16 cloudpost deck from eternal weekend seems pretty good.
Prioritizing Show and Tell seems pretty good except when you play Omni. I ran 3 myself.
Show and Tell into Platinum Emperion is usually good game unless they are running white for Swords to Plowshares or Black for Liliana most decks do not run artifact removal or board sweepers main deck. Well there is miracles but that is a good match up. This also seems pretty good against burn until they board in their Smash to Smitherings.
White Splash for Terminus and Meddling Mage seems great if there are few Blood Moons being played since you have no basics to fetch.
I remember playing Sacred Ground in Keeper against Suicide black with their sinkholes and wastelands. It was good back then. Needle seems more general purpose since Liliana of the Veil is really bad news and it can stop Jace. Are people actually playing other land destruction besides Wasteland? maybe Ghost Quarter from lands and Cataclysm out of Death and Taxes? Pox is very fringe.
Dunno about no Map though. It helps find you lands you need and as an additional shuffle effect with Top lets you see more cards.
Will have to try the white splash and report back.
@Rock Lee
Your list seems interesting. I like Explosives a lot. How is it having no Pithing Needle? Trickbind has wasteland covered but planeswalkers ilke Liliana and Jace can be problems. Relic seems good with all the Dig Through Times being played.
@Intoplay
Trinisphere seems better then Arcane Lab since it is good versus other decks other then Storm and Omni. It is also castable on turn 2 via Cloudpost into Glimmer Post which matters because storm or omni can just kill you.
Your probably right about 4 show and tell being really good with more fatties to bring in like Emperion. It can back fire if your playing OmniTell though.
@Postman
Don't think Dark Depth's + Stage is worth running in a Green Blue build. Dark Depths do not make mana and are a dead draw unless you have Stage and you already have you mana stretched thin between posts and green/blue lands. Your are not playing Wasteland/Rishadan Port or Chalice on 1 like Lands or Aggro Loam, white players can just Swords your Marit Lage Tokens. Hardcasting Emrakul is a better plan.
@Morden
Dunno about Mirri's Guile. How has it been for you? Top lets you draw a card if you really need it. Sylvan is awesome cause you can draw extra cards at cost of life. Unless there are lots of Pithing Needle or Null Rods, Top just seems better than Mirri's Guile. Neither are a combo with Ugin.
Exploration does not seem worth it. You quickly run out of lands to play without a draw engine like life from the loam engine to get you more lands to play.
Would run Ugin over Oblivion Stone. Null Rod gets Oblivion Stone and it blows up all your stuff including Needle and Candelabra. Ugin you get to keep your stuff.
Your concept is more or less fine, but you might want to tweak it slightly in one direction or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morden
I have a very love/hate relationship with Exploration. It's fantastic in the first turn or two, and royally sucks pretty much anytime after that. One thing you might want to at least consider trying is running Crucible of Worlds alongside it. This lets you go ham with fetchlands and creates a lock with Glacial Chasm, which means your Exploration actually does something even late game. Titania, Protector of Argoth also plays nicely with that lot and can be another wincon. I would probably either go all-in on this, or completely cut it. If you cut it, you now have room for Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, who does all sorts of good things and is also a wincon by himself.
I don't like only two copies of Top here. Especially considering that you have a spot for Mirri's Guile, you might as well make that a third Top. True, Mirri's Guile can't be hit with Stifle or Pithing Needle, but it does essentially the same thing...except it does not let you float a surprise counter or Crop Rotation until most needed. I feel like in your current list, I'd probably be getting Top with Trinket Mage pretty much all the time. You can make more or less the same argument with Sylvan Library. If you had more (or deeper) dig - something like Ancient Stirrings - it might work, but as it is...I feel you're lacking there.
Speaking of Trinket Mage, I feel like he's under-utilized here. Not only would I feel compelled to grab Top extremely frequently, but you also have a couple cards that are prime targets for him that are nowhere in your 75. Chalice of the Void is a consideration, of course, but more to the point, I can't imagine any 12-Post list running Trinket Mage that doesn't have an Engineered Explosives it can get. From Monastery Mentor tokens, to planeswalkers, Qasali Pridemage, and everything in between, Explosives handles it. That list can produce four colors natively, and with a little help from an opponent, you can get red as well.
Spell Pierce is a so-so substitute until you can get Flusterstorm. You can also try Mindbreak Trap.
Lastly, unless you have a specific vision in mind, I'd probably consolidate your Spheres and run three of one or three of the other instead of a 2/1 mix.