[Primer/Deck] Pox

Good job there!

I notice you run a 'classic' list with rituals. That should make it easier for you to put in an Ensnaring Bridge should you choose to do so. They are mainly good tech vs decks that rely much on big creatures for the win. Typically Griselbrand and Eldrazis. However also dudes like knight of the reliquary, Tarmogoyf, Gurmag Angler and batterskull are stopped by the bridge. To mention a few.
I suppose it would be viable against any deck that wins by creatures; like elves, goblins and Merfolk. Note that you would also stop your own creatures. If using the bridge in suggest diversifying your win conditions. You could try the rack, or
Ob Nixilis?

You mentioned Sinkhole being good. There is a simple reason for that, I think. That card needs wasteland and Crucible to be at its best, have i noticed. That is just what classic Pox your list, typically runs!
On its own the card is underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Four bloodghast and no Cabal Therapy? Dude, I can't even...

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You are right. For turn two boarding in therapies from side would be nice. Replacing the Inquisition in my list.

Hello Again everyone. Here is my current starting point for my future testing of Mono-B Pox. Below is the current list i have build in both paper and MTGO, I am also going to list all the cards I am considering as I grid some League's over the next few weeks on MTGO.

PAPER LIST:
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
3 Cursed Scroll
2 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 The Abyss
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Nether Spirit
11 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith

SideBoard:
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Command
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Collective Brutality
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tombstalker
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nether Void
1 Beseech The Queen

LANDS TO CONSIDER:
Blighted Fen - 4B is a lot for a edict effect, probably remove due to high cost & the fact it doesn't generate B without Urborg
Cabal Pit - I have seen this in several list, not sure how relevant it is. I can't remember the last time I hit Threshold in a game. Will be testing with it
Field Of Ruin - It saw a lot of play in the PT over the weekend in Modern. Is it good enough for us? Land destruction that lets us go get a land as well for 2. Seems good, is it worth diluting our deck with more non-black source?

ARTIFACTS TO CONSIDER:
Meekstone - Not sure how good it is, I will toss a few into my sideboard and see how many times it helps
Ratchet Bomb - Better than Engineered Explosives? Not sure, EE can get around a Chalice on 2, but RB can be up-ticked to the desired target. I plan on testing between these two for the optimal choice
Sorcerous Spyglass - Not sold on this, I like Pithing Needle better but being able to look first may help. Will test between the two.
Phyrexian Totem - I have talked with a few players who swear by this guy, I haven't had a game where he made any difference. I will keep testing with him.
Helm of Obedience - I currently have one of these in my SB for the combo with LotV, haven't been able to win with the combo so I may pull it. We'll see...

OTHER CARDS:
Vengeful Pharaoh - I have heard a few reports of this doing good work, If I bring it in I feel like we need to pull Nether Spirit since they seem to be counter-productive together.
Ob Nixilis Reignited - I am actually excited to try this guy out, I played him in standard a while back and he does good work.
Massacre - Seems great against DnT, I plan on trying this out quiet a bit!
Lost Legacy - Everytime I look at this card I keep thinking Surgical just seems better. Its cheaper, faster, but it requires the card to be in the yard. Ehh, Ill try it.
Dystopia - Not sure if this is a great card or not, the cumulative upkeep seems steep and since Elves isn't that big a deck it seems unnecessary.
Damnation - Does our deck need a board wipe? We'll see...
Bontu's Last Reckoning - How about a board wipe for one Dark Ritual? Seems good
Engineered Plague - The guy who introduced me to pox several years ago swore by this card, I have found Toxic Deluge to be better so far.
Waste Not - I have done limited testing with this card in paper at a SCG Open with no success. Ill give it a whirl on MTGO
Bitterblossom - Another card I am looking forward to testing, several people have reported good success with it!
Thoughtseize - I feel like IoK is a better choice, the lift loss with this card is very relevant.
Fatal Push - I have not run this yet, I feel Innocent Blood is better. I will try both
Extirpate - Another option besides Surgical...
Duress - The worse of the 1 CNC discards (IMHO)...
Dread of Night - Seems like another good card for DnT/Stoneblade decks, will try it out and see how many times its relevant

Ok, If I have missed something that I should include in my testing please let me know.

Your list is interesting, I like the toolbox + Beseech

Oddities are only 3x wasteland - what is your thinking on not running the full 4? Also I might go down to 1x Needle and put in an Ensnaring Bridge

For myself, I have been testing 3x Bridge in the MD (otherwise fairly standard list; nothing too crazy, though no Abyss and I run 2x Sinkhole). In my 90% fair deck meta I have found it to be quite good. Some decks straight lose to it game 1, and it causes problems for a lot of others. On its own it needs backup to be strong, however, and it can slow down Factory beats. I'm still testing it out, but so far I quite like it.

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

Your list is interesting, I like the toolbox + Beseech

Oddities are only 3x wasteland - what is your thinking on not running the full 4? Also I might go down to 1x Needle and put in an Ensnaring Bridge

For myself, I have been testing 3x Bridge in the MD (otherwise fairly standard list; nothing too crazy, though no Abyss and I run 2x Sinkhole). In my 90% fair deck meta I have found it to be quite good. Some decks straight lose to it game 1, and it causes problems for a lot of others. On its own it needs backup to be strong, however, and it can slow down Factory beats. I'm still testing it out, but so far I quite like it.

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:laugh: There is a funny story behind the 3 Wastelands; A few weeks ago I was at a SCG Open and commissioned an artist to do a borderless extension on one of my wastelands and then at GP Houston I finally found a good deal on a Abyss so I picked it up. During this window I also had decided to add the 2 Beseech's (1 MB, 1 SB) just to see if having a tutor to grab lock pieces would help. My altered Wasteland is on its way back so I will probably try and find room for it again in the 60. May drop an Urborg for it, but the problem is I want to make room for a single Geiger Reach to combo with the Chains also. Need to tinker with the mana base and see if I can afford to drop another swamp as well. :smile:

EDIT: I also like Bridge, it does seem to help us grind out games. The problem (as you noted) is it slows down our Factory's/Spirit's as well. The few times it has helped by stalling out the game I could never close them out with Scroll before the Bridge got K.Commanded and then I got run over by dudes.

So this is the list that I ran 2-15-2018 at my local LGS:

Mainboard:
3x Bitterblossom
1x Cursed Scroll
4x Dark Ritual
4x Fatal Push
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
11x Swamp
1x The Abyss
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Toxic Deluge
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Wasteland

Sideboard:
2x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Engineered Plague
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Pithing Needle
2x Trinisphere

This build was an attempt to create an aggressive portfolio while maintaining usable resources. Honestly I was disappointed in its performance, so I’ll be changing some of it up again for retesting.

Game 1: UW Stoneblade 0-2 with focus on Batterskull, Jace, the mind sculptor, and Gideon of the trials
So the first hand was a horrid flop with bad draws all the way to my death. Round two i sides in Chains of Mephistopheles, pithing needle, and Ensnaring bridge. No matter the build, this has been the worst match up for Pox in my experience.

Game 2: Grixis Delver 2-1
First hand I won due to a flood on his side which also didn’t present enough for me to recognize his build to side properly for game 2. Game 2 he took with an early Delver. I sided ensnaring bridge, trinisphere, and engineered plague for an easy win. Grixis Delver offered very little recovery or protection from a Pox assault due to its reliance on hand size and casting multiple spells per turn giving Pox the edge.

Game 3: Grixis Delver 2-0
Easy win with quick identification of the deck and side boarding.

Game 4: Eldrazi Aggro 1-2
This was the game that was by far the most fun, but should have been a wining sweep. The first game I was able to take the win and looking at my sideboard I could only decide to use ensaring bridge. Second game he managed to overrun my board quickly but the finisher was walking ballista that I couldn’t protect myself from. The third game was the joy of the evening with the abyss and followed by liliana of the veil. I managed to control his board state but he had managed to drop me to 4 life before I stabilized. I then pulled not a single mishras’ factory until I was almost decked. Bitterblossom was of no help due to the life lose and I never once played Toxic Deludge during the whole tournament.

I’ve been looking for a more efficient wincon but no such luck yet. I’ve alredy played several versions from Pure to multiple rogue versions, but haven’t found one that can be versatile enough to beat UW Stoneblade which is honestly what I hold my results towards in relation to Pox effectiveness as it remains the worst match up I’ve ever experienced over the years playing Pox.

I hate Stoneblade too, but Miracles is equally bad. The combination of counters and deadly threats are superior to our game plan, and I am not sure what to do.

Hopefully when we hit Dominaria we will get to see some old school magic come back for resource denial or a better wincon option.

I am a big fan of Dread of Night and Night of Souls' Betrayal against blade and miracles/mentor. cursed scroll does work there as well

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Originally Posted by mykatdied

I am a big fan of Dread of Night and Night of Souls' Betrayal against blade and miracles/mentor. cursed scroll does work there as well

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dread of night and night of souls’ betrayal does little to control either Stoneblade or Miracles unless your running multiples. Secondly night of souls’ betrayal is commonly only ran as a 1 of due to cost and it’s legendary status.

cursed scroll can manage a few key pieces but not their wincons which are often untouchable for us. Either way we get screwed and personally I don’t think cursed scroll is worth it any more.

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Originally Posted by mykatdied

I am a big fan of Dread of Night and Night of Souls' Betrayal against blade and miracles/mentor. cursed scroll does work there as well

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Toxic Deluge is miles better than both, and if you want to get a stacking effect then Engineered Plague is hard to beat. Miracles shrugs off both of those and wins with Jace or 3/3 angels.

The best way to beat miracles is Thoughtseize into Hymn into Liliana. Wasteland is largely ineffective and Smallpox is only good if you've already gotten a jump start with TS/Hymn. Maindeck Ratchet Bomb is good against 4/4 tokens but us too slow against Jace. Sideboarding Needles is important. Blade decks are a little less susceptible to the discard because they can just top deck Batterskull or SFM, and if they play Lingering Souls like Esper blade you're actually in trouble. Lingering Souls is literally one of the best cards against Pox. Again, Ratchet Bomb does a ton of work here. Night OSB is fine as a 1-of, but Dread of Night is too narrow to be considered. Toxic Deluge also deals with Lingering Souls and also deals with Elves, Death and Taxes, Young Pyromancer swarms, and lots of other stuff.

As far as more efficient win-cons go, I have a friend at the LGS that plays Pox regularly and plays 4x Tombstalker. Extras are discarded, and playing them out is easy. It's a fast, evasive clock.

We should get together at 'Magic Workstation' to practice playing against those decks.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Toxic Deluge is miles better than both, and if you want to get a stacking effect then Engineered Plague is hard to beat. Miracles shrugs off both of those and wins with Jace or 3/3 angels.

The best way to beat miracles is Thoughtseize into Hymn into Liliana. Wasteland is largely ineffective and Smallpox is only good if you've already gotten a jump start with TS/Hymn. Maindeck Ratchet Bomb is good against 4/4 tokens but us too slow against Jace. Sideboarding Needles is important. Blade decks are a little less susceptible to the discard because they can just top deck Batterskull or SFM, and if they play Lingering Souls like Esper blade you're actually in trouble. Lingering Souls is literally one of the best cards against Pox. Again, Ratchet Bomb does a ton of work here. Night OSB is fine as a 1-of, but Dread of Night is too narrow to be considered. Toxic Deluge also deals with Lingering Souls and also deals with Elves, Death and Taxes, Young Pyromancer swarms, and lots of other stuff.

As far as more efficient win-cons go, I have a friend at the LGS that plays Pox regularly and plays 4x Tombstalker. Extras are discarded, and playing them out is easy. It's a fast, evasive clock.

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If the reality were just that simple Pox would already be placing higher on the charts, but sadly it’s not.

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

If the reality were just that simple Pox would already be placing higher on the charts, but sadly it’s not.

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The actual reason for this is that black and pretty much every other color besides blue lacks efficient card selection which gives every nonblue deck a fundamental disadvantage, especially now that Top is banned. Banning Top has hurt nonblue decks more than it has hurt Miracles which has just replaced it with Portent while we are Left with Crystal Ball at best... Sometimes I get the feeling that Top was the only thing that allowed nonblue fair decks to keep up halfway with the rest of the format.

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

If the reality were just that simple Pox would already be placing higher on the charts, but sadly it’s not.

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I didn't say it would win tournaments...i was just saying Deluge/Plague are better than Dread of Night.

I suppose defeating blade is a matter of finding a better strategy. Mana denial doesn't work since they only need two lands to play SFM for the win. Discard is not much use since one cantrip is all they need to find SFM or Tnn.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

I suppose defeating blade is a matter of finding a better strategy. Mana denial doesn't work since they only need two lands to play SFM for the win. Discard is not much use since one cantrip is all they need to find SFM or Tnn.

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We need to deal with Batterskull itself, but unless you plan on Loam Pox, or Vaka Pox (God I hate that damn name) it is hard to deal with artifacts. Anyone know of a Red Black Pox list? That would be something lol.

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

We need to deal with Batterskull itself, but unless you plan on Loam Pox, or Vaka Pox (God I hate that damn name) it is hard to deal with artifacts. Anyone know of a Red Black Pox list? That would be something lol.

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YES, I've seen it. It played Blood Moon and Sinkhole (for basics). I'll try and fetch the list and post it. There was at least 2 players at a recent tournament that were playing BR pox-like decks. One opted for Chalice, the other for 1-mana discard.

EDIT: Can't find it. This was a rough sketch of the Moon/Sinkhole deck:

Blood Moon
Sinkhole
Smallpox
Chalice of the Void
Simian Spirit Guide
Liliana of the Veil
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Wasteland
Ancient Tomb
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Crucible of Worlds

Honestly, it seems ok, but not great. You can maindeck cards like Abrade which is excellent against Stoneblade decks. If you don't want to go the Chalice route I think playing a Cabal Therapy/Bloodghast synergy would be very good. You'll always know what to name after they play Mystic, lol. I like the concept, and it opens up cards like Pyroclasm (small swarms like Elves are a problem for Pox), Terminate, Pyroblast, and Fiery Confluence.

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

We need to deal with Batterskull itself, but unless you plan on Loam Pox, or Vaka Pox (God I hate that damn name) it is hard to deal with artifacts. Anyone know of a Red Black Pox list? That would be something lol.

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Crack the Earth

Raze
Tremble
Misguided Rage