[Deck] Death and Taxes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Firstly, there is no better plan vs any Storm variant than "stick a Thalia/Canonist/Revoker @ LED." If you want some turn one interaction, play some number of Judge's Familiar or Chalice of the Void @ zero. However, expect your other matchups to suffer and your overall consistency to go down. And, as far as a singleton silence goes, you're looking at a Christmasland scenario if you expect to have it with any regularity.

If you want to beat Dread, I think the only real solutions beyond Judgment/Oring/Chalice, is to bring in some kind of buff (Honor of the Pure, Spear of Heliod, Veteran Armorer), plays something like Disenchant/Abolish, or run Enlightened Tutor so that you see your Canonist with greater regularity. Also, for that same reason (Dread of Night) you always grab Sword of Fire and Ice first. Slapping it on a Thalia is usually gg as -6 life a turn makes their ad nauseums terrible.

I want to see your list, however. D&T is a deck where questions like "should I play X card" cannot be considered in a vacuum.

---

I feel it would be good if we had a section on the common hate cards brought in against us as well (in addition to revamping the matchups section and a section on unconventional card choices.

For instance we expect dread of night from storm (can't think what other decks run it)
Golgari charm from bug
Sulfur elemental from rug
Pyroclasm from s&t
Etc

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by movingtonewao

I feel it would be good if we had a section on the common hate cards brought in against us as well (in addition to revamping the matchups section and a section on unconventional card choices.

For instance we expect dread of night from storm (can't think what other decks run it)
Golgari charm from bug
Sulfur elemental from rug
Pyroclasm from s&t
Etc

---

Plague from Blade decks & Toxic Deluge from a lot of decks are also relevent SB cards against us.

Is there an up-to-date sideboarding list anywhere for this deck? I've recently started to play it, but I am afraid some of my decisions are incorrect.

Thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cab0747

Is there an up-to-date sideboarding list anywhere for this deck? I've recently started to play it, but I am afraid some of my decisions are incorrect.

Thanks!

---

WHat are your main and current sideboard?
There are 2 schools : with or without tutor board.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Manipulato

Plague from Blade decks & Toxic Deluge from a lot of decks are also relevent SB cards against us.

---

which decks tend to run plague/toxic deluge?

I'm seeing more dread of night and golgari charms actually.

Also havent seen massacre and virtue ruin in awhile, they seems like a blowout, but looks like no decks run them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tylert

WHat are your main and current sideboard?
There are 2 schools : with or without tutor board.

---

I haven't gotten too far into the deck yet. I am running a stock list with the tutor board:

Main:

4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
10 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port


Sideboard:

1 Oblivion Ring
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
1 Cataclysm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ghost Quarter


Sidebaord is still kind of up in the air (which is why I am asking if there is any sideboard advice). I would like to add 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cab0747

I haven't gotten too far into the deck yet. I am running a stock list with the tutor board:

Main:

4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
10 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port


Sideboard:

1 Oblivion Ring
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
1 Cataclysm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ghost Quarter


Sidebaord is still kind of up in the air (which is why I am asking if there is any sideboard advice). I would like to add 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege as well.

---

I would recommend first that you play Mangara; the card is crazy good. I'd cut Mindcensor for him.

Secondly, I'd drop O ring, Cataclysm and GQ for 2 Liege and 1 CoP: Red or Warmth. Oring isn't needed now with Judgment, GQ is better in the main and Cataclysm is a durdly card that Miracles players sandbag Force of Will for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

I would recommend first that you play Mangara; the card is crazy good. I'd cut Mindcensor for him.

Secondly, I'd drop O ring, Cataclysm and GQ for 2 Liege and 1 CoP: Red or Warmth. Oring isn't needed now with Judgment, GQ is better in the main and Cataclysm is a durdly card that Miracles players sandbag Force of Will for.

---

Thanks for the suggestions! I would agree that GQ has been just OK.

Do you think I should be taking out both Mindcensors (which have been very 'meh') for 2 Mangara?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cab0747

Thanks for the suggestions! I would agree that GQ has been just OK.

Do you think I should be taking out both Mindcensors (which have been very 'meh') for 2 Mangara?

---

Yes, very much so. Mindcensor, if it sticks, is an inefficient body with an avoidable tax that has very little impact on the board; Mangara is also an inefficient body but if he sticks, you usually win.

Hi there buddies!!

Im new with this deck (no more than 1 month xD) and I have the typical sideboard problem, my question is not about how to build my sideboard, its about whose are the worse cards in each pairing (the more important ones obv)

So if someone can told me (or said me where can i find it) you´ll help me a lot^^

Thanks for all and sorry for my bad english

Have a good day^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

I would recommend first that you play Mangara; the card is crazy good. I'd cut Mindcensor for him.

Secondly, I'd drop O ring, Cataclysm and GQ for 2 Liege and 1 CoP: Red or Warmth. Oring isn't needed now with Judgment, GQ is better in the main and Cataclysm is a durdly card that Miracles players sandbag Force of Will for.

---

Cutting Cataclysm is not a good suggestion in my opinion. Cataclysm is very good against Miracles, which is the top deck right now, and it happens to also crush decks like Lands, Nic Fit, Enchantress, 12 post and more. Sure most miracle players keep in FoW because of cataclysm, but they usually end up spending the FoW on Vial or Thalia/Mangara, so Cataclysm is still very good most of the time. I would never cut it. I do agree with the rest of what you're saying, and I also completely cut mindcensor a while ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bahra

Cutting Cataclysm is not a good suggestion in my opinion. Cataclysm is very good against Miracles, which is the top deck right now, and it happens to also crush decks like Lands, Nic Fit, Enchantress, 12 post and more. Sure most miracle players keep in FoW because of cataclysm, but they usually end up spending the FoW on Vial or Thalia/Mangara, so Cataclysm is still very good most of the time. I would never cut it. I do agree with the rest of what you're saying, and I also completely cut mindcensor a while ago.

---

I still only see Cataclysm as a solid answer to Miracles; while the other decks are hurt (lands) or wiped out completely by it (nic fit), they are very rare. It's more of a metagame call, I think, but at an Open I just feel like we should have cards with broader application. I have always been lukewarm to the card.

In other news, I have a weekly column over at Win Target Game. It's D&T focused but I'm sure other Legacy topics will come up from time to time. The first article is a general introduction to the deck.

Here it is, if anyone would like to check it out (I'd of course love to hear your opinions!): http://wintargetgame.net/enlightened...y-death-taxes/

Hi, guys, forgive me if I post in the wrong thread.

I am wondering if Death and Taxes splashing black would be a viable idea? Perhaps we can have access to Bob, Tidehollow Sculler or Zealous Persecution or even discard.

Is there any sample list?

Thanks in advance!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

I still only see Cataclysm as a solid answer to Miracles; while the other decks are hurt (lands) or wiped out completely by it (nic fit), they are very rare. It's more of a metagame call, I think, but at an Open I just feel like we should have cards with broader application. I have always been lukewarm to the card.

In other news, I have a weekly column over at Win Target Game. It's D&T focused but I'm sure other Legacy topics will come up from time to time. The first article is a general introduction to the deck.

Here it is, if anyone would like to check it out (I'd of course love to hear your opinions!): http://wintargetgame.net/enlightened...y-death-taxes/

---

What is your board plan against miracles then? There's so much miracles right now that Cataclysm is a mandatory inclusion.

My board plan is: -4x Swords to Plowshares -1x Umezawa's Jitte +1 Enlightened Tutor +1 Ratchet Bomb +1 Pithing Needle +2 Cataclysm. That way I have no dead cards which Swords to Plowshares basically is in that match up, even if they board in Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull.

-4 StP, -1 Jitte, -1 SFM. +2 Canonist, +2 Judgment, +1 Spirit, +1 Needle. I have considered dropping my Crusaders for the Tutors, but nullifying a draw step by a countered tutor target seems like a bad situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

-4 StP, -1 Jitte, -1 SFM. +2 Canonist, +2 Judgment, +1 Spirit, +1 Needle. I have considered dropping my Crusaders for the Tutors, but nullifying a draw step by a countered tutor target seems like a bad situation.

---

Hmmm. I'd be interested to hear why you board out a Stoneforge Mystic, do you not play Sword of Fire and Ice? Ethersworn Canonist seems very bad to board in since it basically doesn't disrupt them at all (if they play well) and it trades with Snapcaster Mage (and then they get to flashback something).

Getting your tutor target countered is of course very bad, but usually you get Pithing Needle or Ratchet Bomb and those are very strong cards in the match up. I've won several games by tutoring for Ratchet Bomb after my opponent has cast Entreat the Angels.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bahra

Hmmm. I'd be interested to hear why you board out a Stoneforge Mystic, do you not play Sword of Fire and Ice? Ethersworn Canonist seems very bad to board in since it basically doesn't disrupt them at all (if they play well) and it trades with Snapcaster Mage (and then they get to flashback something).

Getting your tutor target countered is of course very bad, but usually you get Pithing Needle or Ratchet Bomb and those are very strong cards in the match up. I've won several games by tutoring for Ratchet Bomb after my opponent has cast Entreat the Angels.

---

Canonist is actually quite good; Miracles does a lot of cantripping and landing a Canonist early can slow them down enough to tilt things in your favor. Her disruption is minimal, sure, but crapping on SCM is definitely a good thing. And, yes, I understand that they can trade with Canonist and StP something else; I don't see how it is much of a counter to bringing Canonist in.

Of course I run Sword of Fire and Ice. But I trimmed a Jitte and, since we should be playing more aggressive against Miracles, the fourth copy seems redundant. Mangara is the only other card that doesn't have an aggressive P/T that I could cut; that's obviously a bad idea, though.

Again, it doesn't count for shit if the tutored card is "strong in the matchup"--it never resolved. Tutor is for the fair and combo matches; against Tempo and Control it is just not as solid an answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Canonist is actually quite good; Miracles does a lot of cantripping and landing a Canonist early can slow them down enough to tilt things in your favor. Her disruption is minimal, sure, but crapping on SCM is definitely a good thing. And, yes, I understand that they can trade with Canonist and StP something else; I don't see how it is much of a counter to bringing Canonist in.

Of course I run Sword of Fire and Ice. But I trimmed a Jitte and, since we should be playing more aggressive against Miracles, the fourth copy seems redundant. Mangara is the only other card that doesn't have an aggressive P/T that I could cut; that's obviously a bad idea, though.

Again, it doesn't count for shit if the tutored card is "strong in the matchup"--it never resolved. Tutor is for the fair and combo matches; against Tempo and Control it is just not as solid an answer.

---

Cutting a Stoneforge Mystic is nothing but wrong if you're running Sword of Fire and Ice, how does Canonist "crap" on Snapcaster Mage if they just block it? Sword of Fire and Ice is the best card in the match up and Stoneforge is way way stronger than Canonist for example. Miracles doesn't do a lot of cantripping, they play out a top and then sometimes they ponder or brainstorm, but they rarely play more than 1 card a turn, so bringing in Grizzly Bear instead of Stoneforge Mystic seems very wrong. And you don't necessarily need to be aggressive against Miracles, you're a control deck as much as they are, you just need to make them not blow you out with Terminus and you're good.

And where do you get this idea that your enlightened tutor target always gets countered? That's simply not true. Miracles has a ton of stuff they need to Force of Will (Thalia, Æther Vial, Cataclysm, Mangara and sometimes even Stoneforge Mystic).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by entreri_fans

Hi, guys, forgive me if I post in the wrong thread.

I am wondering if Death and Taxes splashing black would be a viable idea? Perhaps we can have access to Bob, Tidehollow Sculler or Zealous Persecution or even discard.

Is there any sample list?

Thanks in advance!

---

I've seen it done on 1 or 2 lists. I too am curious about users here who have tried it or even goldfished. My initial take on the deck is replacing the Mindcensor/Mangara/Brimaz/Flickerwisp "flex" slots with Confidants and possibly Sculler. But then I'm confused about the manabase. I think a non-green 2 color DnT needs to mesh Caverns, Wastes, and Rishadans together with a few fetchlands/basics.

Alternatively, you can just run a stock W list with an extra Cavern or two for "humans" so Confidant can be played sans vial.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bahra

Cutting a Stoneforge Mystic is nothing but wrong if you're running Sword of Fire and Ice, how does Canonist "crap" on Snapcaster Mage if they just block it? Sword of Fire and Ice is the best card in the match up and Stoneforge is way way stronger than Canonist for example. Miracles doesn't do a lot of cantripping, they play out a top and then sometimes they ponder or brainstorm, but they rarely play more than 1 card a turn, so bringing in Grizzly Bear instead of Stoneforge Mystic seems very wrong. And you don't necessarily need to be aggressive against Miracles, you're a control deck as much as they are, you just need to make them not blow you out with Terminus and you're good.

And where do you get this idea that your enlightened tutor target always gets countered? That's simply not true. Miracles has a ton of stuff they need to Force of Will (Thalia, Æther Vial, Cataclysm, Mangara and sometimes even Stoneforge Mystic).

---

Let me clarify: Canonist craps on Snapcaster's ETB. Yes I know they can block it, but if you are playing the game right anyway they shouldn't have a target with said StP. A Brainstorm could be a concern I suppose, but the Snapcaster speed bump will come up if you attack with a Revoker or Stoneforge as well. Canonist provides an extra body and a decent tax; against a deck with as much creature kill as Miracles, extra attacks is what we need.

They don't need to counter Thalia. She's annoying, yes, but she doesn't shut them out like she does vs RUG or Storm. The others are correct, however.

As far as SFM is concerned, you still draw into her enough of the time. I don't consider Batterskull or SoFI essential to winning the Miracles matchup and she's the slowest card in the deck. But if it bugs you so much, I can shave a Mother of Runes instead.

You cannot be the better control deck vs Miracles. You are the beat down, you want the game to end quick, since their late game is usually superior.

I'm not saying it's always countered. Where are you getting that idea? I'm saying getting 2-for-1ed AND losing a draw step is something I want to avoid. And, when in an actual game, you may find yourself tutoring on the first turn; they may very well FoW your turn-two play.

EDIT: @Warden: I agree, running something like 2-3 Caverns seems better than fetches and duals. A creature package like so seems like something I'd do for the B splash:

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Bob
3 Revoker
4 SFM
2 Sculler
2 Mangara
3 Crusader

My concern with the B splash is mostly a question of how to keep the deck functional.