[Deck] Goblins

I also think that relic is the best gy hate Card as it is so flexible. It beats RUG and is not so bad against Dredge and Reanimtor. Leyline is better against the last two matchups but with Relic you have a good chance to beat the most popular deck :)

What are your opinions about running Thalia MD? I think Thalia will help us against combo a lot and make a better matchup against blade and other decks with control elements. But I am not sure if cutting 2 Mogg war Marshals and 1 Piledriver for 3 Thalia won't harm your deck strategy. You also lose some red cards and make pyrokinesis weaker (the best sideboard card against aggro).

Another question: I saw that some goblin players have recently cut 2 MWM for 2 Mogg Fanatic as it allows to block against blade decks without letting them get lifegain or counters on their equipments. This seems interesting. But perhaps Mogg fan is not good against other matchups as it lowers your creature count?

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Originally Posted by Sasan

. You also lose some red cards and make pyrokinesis weaker (the best sideboard card against aggro).

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So you take out Thalias to bring in Knesis against agroo. Shes not there for that MU.

I disagree with Relic being good against Reanimator. OK is my description for it, but agree on the rest.

I favour a mono red take on Goblins myself. I've played with green and black splashes (but never both simultaneously), but since Cavern of Souls came out I've become a Believer.
I believe that adding a second colour to help against combo matchups isn't necessary and more often then not your primary game plan (throw Goblins at 'em!) will be watered down as a result.

Mogg Fanatic has merit as accidental dredge hate. If you need to play him as a dedicated removal spell, I would suggest looking somewhere else (Tarfire or Gempalm Incinerator). MWM and Gempalm are kind of an Item (you can't have one without the other) so cutting them probably isn't for the best.

If you would take out one of this cards against SnT (because you have a lot of hate coming in), which would it be: Krenko or Ringleader?
And if you were to remove more than one of those, say 3, how you you split it?
Last one: Would your answer be differente if the SnT is Omniscience, Sneak, Hive Mind or Hipergenesis?
Having trouble figuring this out without playtesting...

This is the first time I've seen someone consider cutting Goblin Ringleader after sideboarding. Honestly, I wouldn't ever cut any of those two cards, especially against combo.

What is this massive hate you are bringing in that you feel the need to make room for by cutting these cards?

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Originally Posted by Annatar

This is the first time I've seen someone consider cutting Goblin Ringleader after sideboarding. Honestly, I wouldn't ever cut any of those two cards, especially against combo.

What is this massive hate you are bringing in that you feel the need to make room for by cutting these cards?

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Just trying something out. There are 10 cards to come in. I cut all removal except from Stingscourger, and won't cut Lackey/Vial/Instigator/Warchief/Matron/Piledriver/Chieftain, and probably not SGC too, so that left me with those 2 options.
Just tinkering around here. Play along. =]

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

If you would take out one of this cards against SnT (because you have a lot of hate coming in), which would it be: Krenko or Ringleader?
And if you were to remove more than one of those, say 3, how you you split it?
Last one: Would your answer be differente if the SnT is Omniscience, Sneak, Hive Mind or Hipergenesis?
Having trouble figuring this out without playtesting...

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This is my SB
4 REB
2 Pyrochinesis
1 Sharpshooter (and 1 MD)
1 King
2 Grip
3 Surgical
2 Relic

I found an Hive Mind last sunday (won 2-1) and I made this changes for G2 and 3:
-1 tuktuk -1 Sharpshooter -4 Gempalm -1Krenko
+3 Surgical +4 REB
But next time I'll side out 1 Ringleader instead of Krenko, cose taking out 7 goblins, you know, ringleader is not the same...
VS Omnitell I'll side out a second ringleader and Krenko for a pair of Krosan Grip.
I'm not shure I'll do the same for Sneak... I've never tested this MU.

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Originally Posted by Lord Gibbo

Opininon

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Thanks.
The reasoning behind keeping Ringleader is solely to help find Matron/Stingscourger, in case they SnT Emrakul/Grizzle.
The reason for Krenko would be to survive an Emrakul attack, and create enough board presence to win on the next turn.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Thanks.
The reasoning behind keeping Ringleader is solely to help find Matron/Stingscourger, in case they SnT Emrakul.
The reason for Krenko would be to survive an Emrakul attack, and create enough board presence to win on the next turn.

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Of Course.
I don't have a big experience in this MU... None of my friends play S&T. (Probably cose they like paly Magic...:smile:)

ScatmanX what is your sideboard plan against Omni Tell etc?

I would always cut Gempalm against this matchup as their creatures are far more out of reach of what gempalm can do. regularly he makes 4-5 damage. but grisel and emrakul are bigger. so leave ringleader and krenko mainboard :D

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Originally Posted by Sasan

ScatmanX what is your sideboard plan against Omni Tell etc?

I would always cut Gempalm against this matchup as their creatures are far more out of reach of what gempalm can do. regularly he makes 4-5 damage. but grisel and emrakul are bigger. so leave ringleader and krenko mainboard :D

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

I cut all removal except from Stingscourger

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I don't want a discussion about list. We all take out removal and bring in hate cards. That's the plan.
I just want to know what, when you have 10 cards to bring in, do you cut other than removal.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

I don't want a discussion about list. We all take out removal and bring in hate cards. That's the plan.
I just want to know what, when you have 10 cards to bring in, do you cut other than removal.

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if your brought in hate cards are not goblin cards, then you can cut a ringleader.

how is your mana base? if you have 23 lands then you can cut two against show and tell and bring your hate cards without losing ringleader and krenko. goblin decks run also with 21 lands. some tournaments were won by several people with this mana base.

you can pm me your sideboard plan if you dont want do talk in the public. I always want to improve my matchup against show and tell :D

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Originally Posted by Sasan

if your brought in hate cards are not goblin cards, then you can cut a ringleader.

how is your mana base? if you have 23 lands then you can cut two against show and tell and bring your hate cards without losing ringleader and krenko. goblin decks run also with 21 lands. some tournaments were won by several people with this mana base.

you can pm me your sideboard plan if you dont want do talk in the public. I always want to improve my matchup against show and tell :D

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I was considering dropping a land too. Don't see a problem going to 21, maybe 20 lands, if your hate cards are 1cc.

I don't agree with the assumption that, against combo decks, we should keep a high goblin count for Ringleader. Its different than playing against agroo/agroo control/control. We don't need card advantage to win against combo, like we need agains UW Miracles or Esper Blade. We need especific cards and a clock. So if I take out 7 removal spells, and say, 2 MWM, I wouldn't take out Ringleader because I took too many goblins, cause he would still find me Matron/Sting in case opponent SnTs Emrakul/Grizzlebrand.
For instance: I side ou Vials and Ringleader all the time against Belcher.

- Ok, removal spells go out first (Mogg Fanatic/Tarfire/Gempalm Incinerator/Pyrokinesis).

- After that, maybe artifact hate if you maindeck it since it doesn't do anything in that matchup.

- Then, I would probably check what singleton cards aren't essential and could be sided out to make room (Goblin Shaprshooter/Skirk Prospector).

- MWM is also a reasonable cut here since he isn't exactly going to win "the two drop that puts the most pressure on the combo player" award.

- Aether Vial is also all kinds of lame against decks that can combo off before turn 3, so cutting some of those isn't out of the question either.

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Originally Posted by Annatar

- Ok, removal spells go out first (Mogg Fanatic/Tarfire/Gempalm Incinerator/Pyrokinesis).

- After that, maybe artifact hate if you maindeck it since it doesn't do anything in that matchup.

- Then, I would probably check what singleton cards aren't essential and could be sided out to make room (Goblin Shaprshooter/Skirk Prospector).

- MWM is also a reasonable cut here since he isn't exactly going to win "the two drop that puts the most pressure on the combo player" award.

- Aether Vial is also all kinds of lame against decks that can combo off before turn 3, so cutting some of those isn't out of the question either.

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Agreed.
On the last one though, I quite enjoy having Vial against SnT. Being able to cast it T1, to leave mana open/cast your hate T2-3, is quite a good plan in my book, while also being able to Waste/Port them. Also, having it @2 for Stingscourger is just great.
Do you take it out sooner than Krenko/Ringleader?
I guess siding 1 or 2 could be an option.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Agreed.
On the last one though, I quite enjoy having Vial against SnT. Being able to cast it T1, to leave mana open/cast your hate T2-3, is quite a good plan in my book, while also being able to Waste/Port them. Also, having it @2 for Stingscourger is just great.
Do you take it out sooner than Krenko/Ringleader?
I guess siding 1 or 2 could be an option.

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Well, to be honest I don't normally consider sideboard strategies for that matchup since it's completely absent from my local metagame. My current sideboard looks like this:

2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Stingscourger
2 Anarchy
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Chalice of the Void

The only cards I would consider bringing in for SnT are the Pyroblasts and the 2nd Stingscourger. I never really get to the point where I'm debating should I cut Krenko or Ringleader, or even Aether Vial for that matter. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I don't see any other cards I could add against SnT.

In the abstract, it would probably depend a lot on who draws first and even then I wouldn't cut more then one Vial.

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Originally Posted by Annatar

Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I don't see any other cards I could add against SnT.

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No, you're not. I'm just theorycrafting here. I kind of came to the conclusion that it depends on the list. If it is a list full of haste lords, Krenko might be the better option, while if it is an Instigator build, where you can easily dump goblins, Ringleader might be better.
Thanks for the help =]

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Originally Posted by Annatar

- Ok, removal spells go out first (Mogg Fanatic/Tarfire/Gempalm Incinerator/Pyrokinesis).

- After that, maybe artifact hate if you maindeck it since it doesn't do anything in that matchup.

- Then, I would probably check what singleton cards aren't essential and could be sided out to make room (Goblin Shaprshooter/Skirk Prospector).

- MWM is also a reasonable cut here since he isn't exactly going to win "the two drop that puts the most pressure on the combo player" award.

- Aether Vial is also all kinds of lame against decks that can combo off before turn 3, so cutting some of those isn't out of the question either.

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wondering if gempalm could be relevant, I would cut him after singletons... I need to test more against it.

This discussion about how to board against Show and Tell is kinda strange, just because no one ever bothered to define exactly what it is you're boarding against. Show and Tell is played in many many decks that work very differently. It's in Hive Mind, OmniTell (UR and UBGw builds), Sneak and Show, and let's not forget Reanimator.

The only obvious sb card against all these is REB, but it's only going to work if you can leave mana open to play it. Waste and port can also be very effective at locking out their mana so they can't resolve a SnT, but using your lands to disrupt theirs makes your mana unavailable, and makes it damn nEar impossible to put on a clock. Because you need to use your mana sources to disrupt their lands or cast REB you probably want to keep your options open for cheating in gobbos. This means Aether Vial should probably stay in you deck and not get sided out. Even though it's slow and thins out your deck, you probably still want it in some capacity. It's not as good of a t1 drop as Lackey, but it's better than nothing. There's probably a distinction to be made between whether you're on the play or draw against SnT too. Vial is a lot better on the play, but if you cast a T1 Vial on the draw you cannot REB their T2 SnT. Of course, if they're going off with a T2 SnT with protection you're probably fucked regardless. I would avoid siding out Vial.

I think Gempalms and Tuktuk are easy cuts. MD spot removal can go, as others have said. I know someone was saying they wanted 10 sb cards to come in, but that seems a bit much. I guess if you have 4REB 4Pyroblast then you can go for it, but I just don't see how on earth you're going to have ten cards to side in against SnT.

Here is the deck I've been trying out...a little unorthodox but worth the experiment...more open to Stifles and Wastes for sure, but the color splashes give me better SB options for my meta...

2 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
4 Taiga
4 Badlands

4 AEther Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Perish
3 Choke
2 Pyrokensis
2 REB (Abrupt Decay?)
1 Tuk-Tuk