[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by SHABOOGS

Que? I'll just leave this here:
https://youtu.be/FspXTnBeWd8
You could also look up Joseph Moreno on the Top8 sites.

Peace out!

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ah so hes actually the only guy other than myself and Parcher to have several good finishes with Dredge, I stand corrected on questioning his identity and apologize for my tone, but his tone and assertion that "Firestorm is crap" still rubbed me the wrong way and I think I adequately addressed his points as well, though I will admit to being less than sober when writing that post last night when I took such a tone myself lol. FYI you can look me up (Eric Copenhaver) on Youtube and/or SCG/Top8 sites for your own reference as well!

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Originally Posted by Cope

Simply asserting that "Firestorm is crap".....

Memory's Journey is also a card I've just never thought was good enough.
....it seems unlikely/optimistic to me that at the time they are casting their Surgical that you would have already hit your 1 Memory's Journey and have G untapped.

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Firestorm is just a niche card IME, and it's always been useful in few instances. But I still want it there in the side given the synergy with the rest of the deck.
I've been running 3 lately.

Memory's journey isn't a card I've ever run, so take what I say with a degree of suspicion. :eyebrow:
I agree with this point here. I don't tend to leave mana open if I can cast any Studies/Looting etc. So for me, Journey is only going to be useful later in the game, *after* our opponent will likely drop their hate from their initial grip.
For you blokes who do run MJ;
How often do you side it in? And how often have you actually used it VS dedicated hate like extraction/DRS?
And are you running Street Wraith?

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Originally Posted by quadich

Natures claim still has the issue of them burning our yard with relic or RiP so we have to deal with that either way(unless annul becomes a thing ^^). So our graveyard gets nuked either way. the upside i see with grudge/ray is that they are okay in our hand but also good when they are in our yard (aside from grafdiggers cage). So i feel its less dependent on the hand we keep which is nice ( i think).

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You're right, but there are two factors I think are worth mentioning with respect to Ray/Grudge. The first is that, though we'd be in the same position against RiP if we had Ray in the graveyard as if we had Claim in hand, a Ray in the graveyard will do nothing if we don't have a mana source available at precisely the time they cast RiP (N.B.: Annul also has this problem, which might be the reason it's not a thing; so does Memory's Journey, but more on that later). Claim doesn't have that problem. The second factor that I think makes more than one Ray or Grudge too clunky for the deck is that we can't use them as effectively from our hands because they're more expensive. It's a similar problem to the one we encounter with Abrupt Decay, though probably slightly less difficult in the case of Ray/Grudge because it only requires one rainbow-colored mana to work.

With all that said, I do still have a Ray in my sideboard. I might add a Grudge at some point, but I'm not sure because it's significantly less effective against the principal hate cards.

Regarding Abrupt Decay, I think its effectiveness depends a good deal on whether we're going to run more than 12 lands. I'm not in favor of doing so, but I think it's definitely an understandable strategy, and I've had a few skin-rendingly agonizing matches in which I just couldn't find a land and a dredger in four mulligans in each of two games. Anybody else having that problem on 12 lands?

Also, I think Parcher's analysis is spot on. We won't be able to stop Leyline, we need a somewhat awkward mana base to cast it, and blue decks and Chalice decks only really get speed-bumped by Decay on Cage/RiP/whatever.

I'm sticking by what I said before about Firestorm. I think Que is right, and that it's less the fact that Firestorm isn't strong enough (it absolutely is) but that it dilutes our dredges without giving us a significant chance of addressing the threats it's meant to answer. Nature's Claim is conceivable for topdecking because it's not meant to deal with a clock, but Firestorm is, and it's not reliable enough IMO to run a quad in the hopes we can find it in our opener.

I'm interested to hear more discussion about Memory's Journey. Cope, I think your analysis is correct and points to the problem I mentioned above regarding the other Flashback cards. With that said, it's pretty much the only answer I can think of that stops Surgical Extraction. So it's a question of whether the likelihood we'll be able to fire Memory's Journey in response to an Extraction is greater than the likelihood that running something else will help us more in the same matchup. Anybody have any ideas/opinions?

Slave, I've not yet had the chance to test Journey in my deck, but I am running two Wraiths in the main for matchups like Eldrazi and DRS.dec. I might get the chance to free the Dredging beast this weekend, so I'll report back if I do any testing.

Zombardment match-up seems terrible. Like, got fuck-stomped (great word btw).

Also, lost every game 0-8 against snt, zombardment and bug delver.....variance bug. Makes me hate this deck fml.

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

Also, lost every game 0-8 ....

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Ouch! :eek:
What sort of hate did you cop?

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Originally Posted by Cope

Simply asserting that "Firestorm is crap" makes me question who you are and how much/if any experience and results you actually have with the deck "Que", other than just posting on here a ton and having a Breakthrough as your avatar, no offense. But yeah, to address the points you were trying to make: against a deck like Death and Taxes I would SB in 3 Claim, 3 Firestorm and the 10th rainbow land for game 2 (assuming we won game 1), because they could/do have Rest in Peace/Cage and/or Containment Priest, like you said. These numbers can be adjusted 4-2 in favor of either Claim or Firestorm for game 3 depending on what hate you lose to/see. Firestorm is also very useful against Deathrite decks, which I realize Abrupt Decay can also kill, but at least a full turn slower, and simply being able to Firestorm on your first turn or their end step to kill a Deathrite and additionally discard dredgers or other cards you just want in the GY can be a game winning play all on its own. And even if you go land, go vs. a Deathrite deck and they dont have it and say Ponder on their turn 1, you can still uncounterably discard 2 cards end step with it, shock your opponent and self, and be ready to untap and start dredging/go off if you have draw effects in hand. Also, you usually cast Firestorm during one of the first few turns of the game if at all, so this "nonbo" with Bridge from Below is an almost nonexistent scenario that pretty much never comes up, and if it came down to it id happily trade 1 exiled Bridge if it meant killing a Deathrite Shaman. The only deck you snap board in 4 Firestorms in against is Elves, which is one of our best matchups anyways, but also one that becomes so much better after SB because of this. The full set can also be useful against D&T if you see game 2 that theyre on more creature-based hate, or against Grixis Delver decks with Deathrite who have Surgicals as their hate rather than artifacts. I could see going down to 3 Firestorms honestly, but the assertion that "Firestorm is crap" is laughable to me and reflects a lack of knowledge and/or experience, imo.

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I've tried playing the card on multiple occasions. I'm just not impressed. In a matchup with creatures I don't really need it because my horde of zombies usually does a good job of overwhelming them. It forces you to play reactive which I don't particularly like. I would rather not give them extra turns to find hate; I want to close out the game asap. Ultimately if I just cast it to shock both my opponent and I then I feel like the sb slot is wasted because the benefit of simply discarding two dredgers at best seems underwhelming if thats how I'm using the card. In my experience 1 Deathrite Shaman isn't very scary and your draws should ideally be able to beat that which again I feel makes Firestorm less necessary. Like you said the elves matchup is already good so why bother with Firestorm? If anything having Elesh Norn and Iona should just be game. I don't feel this really shores up our DnT matchup either because they attack from very different angles between cards like Thalia, Wasteland, Port, Plow, RIP, Containment Priest, Karakas (if you're trying to get cute and lock them out of the game with Iona/Elesh), Jitte, Batterskull(they can bounce it back to their hand to exiles Bridges), Revoker (LED,Cephalid Coliseum), Enlightened Tutor, etc.

At the end of the day I did say "Firestorm is crap imo". Just my opinion.

But were good :) Good job on those top 8s.

Shaboogs backing me up. hah. dope

I think one strategy we could use against Zombardment (and Eldrazi, for that matter) would be to bring back Leyline of the Void. Anyone still running it in their sideboards at this point? Not sure what I'd replace, but I have a feeling there's a bit of space in the reanimation package.

Wasn't sure how else to notify him because his PM inbox is full, but Michael Keller, clean out your inbox so I can message you back lol!

Also, to all you Dredge fans out there, we're planning an episode of Legacy's Allure (my webcast) about your deck. So stay tuned, and in a few weeks when its ready, I'll post a link for y'all.

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Originally Posted by Svyelunite

Wasn't sure how else to notify him because his PM inbox is full, but Michael Keller, clean out your inbox so I can message you back lol!

Also, to all you Dredge fans out there, we're planning an episode of Legacy's Allure (my webcast) about your deck. So stay tuned, and in a few weeks when its ready, I'll post a link for y'all.

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Keller doesn't really play much anymore. And when he does, he usually plays Painter. I've probably more experience and success with every build and iteration of the deck in the corresponding metagames than anyone. And Joe Moreno(Que) has had more recent success with the deck than just about anyone. I'm sure either of us would be happy to help if needed.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Keller doesn't really play much anymore. And when he does, he usually plays Painter. I've probably more experience and success with every build and iteration of the deck in the corresponding metagames than anyone. And Joe Moreno(Que) has had more recent success with the deck than just about anyone. I'm sure either of us would be happy to help if needed.

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Appreciate the offer! I may look into having y'all as the Deck Tech guest then, and maybe Keller could talk some history or development of the deck. No reason we can't get all the successful people involved eventually ;)

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Keller doesn't really play much anymore. And when he does, he usually plays Painter. I've probably more experience and success with every build and iteration of the deck in the corresponding metagames than anyone. And Joe Moreno(Que) has had more recent success with the deck than just about anyone. I'm sure either of us would be happy to help if needed.

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If so, then I'd like to ask you something about the recently printed Prized Amalgam. Do you think it deserves a place in your 75s?

I see a potential in it.

Not really. The EOT clause precludes it from use with Therapy or Dread. It's inability to trigger Bridge on its own makes it worse than most other options even if it survives and you don't have Therapy or Dread. Concurrently, it is large enough that it will often not trigger Bridge, in the way you want, in creature combat. So it doesn't work with Combo hands. It doesn't grind with Bridge well. It doesn't work well with Therapy. And it is a typically vulnerable to Sorcery speed removal. I guess it dodges Wail, unlike the rest of the deck. I bet it's perfect for Manaless. But I think even Bloodghast has far more upside in this one.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Keller doesn't really play much anymore. And when he does, he usually plays Painter. I've probably more experience and success with every build and iteration of the deck in the corresponding metagames than anyone. And Joe Moreno(Que) has had more recent success with the deck than just about anyone. I'm sure either of us would be happy to help if needed.

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I play quite often, actually. I just don't post on TS that much anymore.

If any help is needed, just let me know.

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

I play quite often, actually. I just don't post on TS that much anymore.

If any help is needed, just let me know.

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Sorry to mislead. Youre usually not one to be silent. More emphasis on my winning with, and evolving the deck from its inception until now. And on Joe's more recent success on the SCG circuit.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Sorry to mislead. Youre usually not one to be silent. More emphasis on my winning with, and evolving the deck from its inception until now. And on Joe's more recent success on the SCG circuit.

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I honestly think everyone has some interesting things to offer when it comes to Dredge. It's just folks have different tastes when it comes to card selection. Whether or not that translates to success is another story, but I think it merits consideration at least mentioning that creativity plays a large part - especially in sideboarding with this archetype.

I feel very differently. I don't believe in taste, or "playstyle". I always think that's there's, if not right or wrong, than at least a "best" choice. When it comes to build, and/or card choices anyway. I do agree about creativity in sideboarding with Dredge though. I use a guide to determine exactly what I want that day in my 75. But not for actual in game sideboarding. There are just way too many variables. Not only what deck you're playing against, but also what hate you expect, play or draw, time, your 75s composition, etc.

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

I play quite often, actually. I just don't post on TS that much anymore.

If any help is needed, just let me know.

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Hi Michael; is your opinion on Prized Amalgam same as Parcher's?

I still feel like Prized Amalgam fits the playstyle of manaless a bit better than it does our own. In a deck with no spells, there's need for more recursive creatures (far as I know, typically 12 instead of the 7-8 in mana dredge), and Amalgam fits the bill if you're looking for even more. It also goes well with the blue cards that make occasional appearances in the manaless, esp. Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal.

With both of those things having been said, I don't like the card very much, primarily because it's slow but also because it relies on our hitting other recursive creatures. Also, I don't think manaless is as good a deck against most of the field as LED dredge is.

Amalgam might be an answer to Zombardment, though. Anyone tested it yet?

Zombardment really? You don't need to figure out how to beat it, just wait for them to realize its a bad deck. I mean it was cute when Sam Black was playing it, but became much worse when DRS was printed. Idk to me that deck is less than tier 1.5 and haven't seen it place well since 2014 & prior. Is it that they're just blowing up all your bridges? Doesn't DR into Iona or Elesh win the game? They don't even play permission.. Please let me know your experiences specifically as I don't have the deck in my meta.