[Primer/Deck] Pox

I haven't had a ton of trouble against blade, so slightly surprised to hear that it's meant to be a bad matchup. NoSB shuts down everything but batterskull, for what that's worth.

I was toying around with the idea of a BR stompy/pox type list as well... but I get the feeling monored 8moon is probably just better? Black doesn't add a ton aside from sinkhole, smallpox, and lilliana. Red has plenty of LD options without Sinkhole, and smallpox's LD will be largely redundant if you land a moon. The creature hate side of things gets stronger with black I guess, so you don't have to rely so much on bridge.

It's an interesting idea, might try to throw something together. Sol lands and 2 colors seems iffy though :(

I did well at a weekly and wanted to share my journey.

3x Innocent Blood
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Collective Brutality
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
1x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Phyrexian Totem
3x Dark Ritual
1x Empty the Pits
2x Fatal Push
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Nether Spirit
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
12x Swamp

Sideboard
1x The Abyss
2x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Extirpate
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Nether Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
3x Pithing Needle



Rd 1. Thalia Stompy

Game 1 Swamp, Cursed Scroll, go. Tomb, Chalice on 1. Wasteland. Cavern, Little Thalia. Factory, CoBru kills it. Big Thalia. CoBru kills it, Waste a land. Little Thalia. Never drew another land or anything relevant that wasn’t BB. Luckily he drew a Jitte to speed it up.

Out: Rituals, Inquisition, 1 Push.
In: Bridges, Bontu’s, The Abyss.

Game 2. Chalice on 1. Turn 3 Last Hope upticks into an empty field while discard did work on a player light on lands. Opponent starting recovering as the Last Hope ultimates. He scooped to Empty the Pits.

Game 3. Looter Scooter kept digging for creatures but I kept answering them at sorcery speed. Eventually a couple Misura’s Factory and Nether Spirit out raced a Smuggler’s Copter, Thoughtknot Seer and opposing Factory. Collective Brutality was the MVP in this game. Draining and gaining kept me out of range and killing (either) Thalia always feels good.

1-0

Rd 2. Miracles

Game 1. Swamp, Iok. See Jace, STP, Snappy, Predict, SFM, Plains, Fetch. Grabbed SFM. Thoughtseize coming back for Jace had to take Back to Basics. I stuck a Liliana, the Last Hope before he stuck a Mind Sculptor. Cursed Scroll and emblem tokens finished off Jace and then my opponent.

Out: Rituals.
In: Needles.

Game 2. Early Needle on a Jace I never saw. Cursed Scroll. Needle on Cursed Scroll. Stripped a Back to Basics. Counterbalance didn’t get too much but it let him get 3 creatures wide even after a Bontu. Eventually SFM, Snapcaster and a Revoker (of the Veil) end it.

Bring in another Bontu.

Game 3. Opponent mulled to 5. Thoughtsneeze. Hymn. Hymn. Opponent has no hand and is on two lands. Needle on a Jace I never saw. Topdecks Counterbalance. Nothing for a while on either side. Nether Spirit beats. Killed a SFM that greedily grabbed a Batterskull. Hit the lands to cast it. Innocent Blooded it. Bounce it. Cast it. Spirit/Brutalized it. Spirit chumps some more. Smallpox. Topdecks Jitte, active player turn 0, pass- end of turn Empty the Pits for 5. Opponent conceded.

2-0

Rd 3. BR Reanimator

Game 1. Badlands, Looting, bin a Griselbrand. Swamp, pass. Petal, Exhume, draw 7, Unmask. Scoop.

Out: Pushes, Hymns, Ob Nix.
In: Bridges, Leylines, Extirpates.

Game 2. Shows a Chancellor. I opened with Urborg, pass. Badlands, Looting, bin a Chancellor. Factory, pass. Land, Reanimate, Extirpate. Dark Ritual, Leyline if the Void. He digs for his own Rituals to help hard cast a Grizzy, but succumbs to double Factory beats.

Game 3. Lotus Petal, Unmask targeting himself. Shows Iona, Sire, a Reanimate and nonland non relevant cards. While deciding which to discard he says “If you show me Surgical Extraction I will scoop.” I show him Extirpate.

3-0

Rd 4. Miracles.

The last time I played Redcap’s he and I split in the 4th round. We did it again.

3-0-1! Woo!

The worst part about Pox is never being able to close out the game. The usual 8 threats of Factories, Scrolls, 2 creatures and a Totem wasn’t enough. Phyrexian Totem is a powerhouse so I added another. Empty the Pits is a card I have been wanting to try out for a minute. Those combined with the fact I am in love with Liliana, the Last Hope and missed playing with Ob Nixilis brings me up to 12 ways to end the game. Both times Lily hit the table she Ultimated. Never saw Nixon but he has been awesome in the past.

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

I haven't had a ton of trouble against blade, so slightly surprised to hear that it's meant to be a bad matchup. NoSB shuts down everything but batterskull, for what that's worth.

I was toying around with the idea of a BR stompy/pox type list as well... but I get the feeling monored 8moon is probably just better? Black doesn't add a ton aside from sinkhole, smallpox, and lilliana. Red has plenty of LD options without Sinkhole, and smallpox's LD will be largely redundant if you land a moon. The creature hate side of things gets stronger with black I guess, so you don't have to rely so much on bridge.

It's an interesting idea, might try to throw something together. Sol lands and 2 colors seems iffy though :(

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Sol Lands are really only for Chalice. Black also offers targeted discard, Hymn to Tourach, better removal than red, and an attrition game plan that red can't really accomplish alone. I'm not saying it would be amazing, but black offers more than just LD/Liliana OTV.

Kolaghan's Command is also incredibly good. I could easily see like 2-3 Bloodghast, 4x Young Pyromancer and splashing Kolaghans Command, Moons, targeted discard, and PW's. Red allows for efficient low-level wipers as well, something black always has a hard time dealing with alone (small swarms.) Pyroclasm and Electrickery are both very good wipers.

Thoughtseize their key stuff, SInkhole their basics, Blood Moon everything else, clean up small stuff with Pyroclasm, use a Cabal Therapy/Young Pyromancer/Smallpox/Bloodghast engine for absurd value.

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Originally Posted by naynay666

I did well at a weekly and wanted to share my journey.

3x Innocent Blood
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Collective Brutality
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
1x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Phyrexian Totem
3x Dark Ritual
1x Empty the Pits
2x Fatal Push
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Nether Spirit
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
12x Swamp

Sideboard
1x The Abyss
2x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Extirpate
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Nether Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
3x Pithing Needle



Rd 1. Thalia Stompy

Game 1 Swamp, Cursed Scroll, go. Tomb, Chalice on 1. Wasteland. Cavern, Little Thalia. Factory, CoBru kills it. Big Thalia. CoBru kills it, Waste a land. Little Thalia. Never drew another land or anything relevant that wasn’t BB. Luckily he drew a Jitte to speed it up.

Out: Rituals, Inquisition, 1 Push.
In: Bridges, Bontu’s, The Abyss.

Game 2. Chalice on 1. Turn 3 Last Hope upticks into an empty field while discard did work on a player light on lands. Opponent starting recovering as the Last Hope ultimates. He scooped to Empty the Pits.

Game 3. Looter Scooter kept digging for creatures but I kept answering them at sorcery speed. Eventually a couple Misura’s Factory and Nether Spirit out raced a Smuggler’s Copter, Thoughtknot Seer and opposing Factory. Collective Brutality was the MVP in this game. Draining and gaining kept me out of range and killing (either) Thalia always feels good.

1-0

Rd 2. Miracles

Game 1. Swamp, Iok. See Jace, STP, Snappy, Predict, SFM, Plains, Fetch. Grabbed SFM. Thoughtseize coming back for Jace had to take Back to Basics. I stuck a Liliana, the Last Hope before he stuck a Mind Sculptor. Cursed Scroll and emblem tokens finished off Jace and then my opponent.

Out: Rituals.
In: Needles.

Game 2. Early Needle on a Jace I never saw. Cursed Scroll. Needle on Cursed Scroll. Stripped a Back to Basics. Counterbalance didn’t get too much but it let him get 3 creatures wide even after a Bontu. Eventually SFM, Snapcaster and a Revoker (of the Veil) end it.

Bring in another Bontu.

Game 3. Opponent mulled to 5. Thoughtsneeze. Hymn. Hymn. Opponent has no hand and is on two lands. Needle on a Jace I never saw. Topdecks Counterbalance. Nothing for a while on either side. Nether Spirit beats. Killed a SFM that greedily grabbed a Batterskull. Hit the lands to cast it. Innocent Blooded it. Bounce it. Cast it. Spirit/Brutalized it. Spirit chumps some more. Smallpox. Topdecks Jitte, active player turn 0, pass- end of turn Empty the Pits for 5. Opponent conceded.

2-0

Rd 3. BR Reanimator

Game 1. Badlands, Looting, bin a Griselbrand. Swamp, pass. Petal, Exhume, draw 7, Unmask. Scoop.

Out: Pushes, Hymns, Ob Nix.
In: Bridges, Leylines, Extirpates.

Game 2. Shows a Chancellor. I opened with Urborg, pass. Badlands, Looting, bin a Chancellor. Factory, pass. Land, Reanimate, Extirpate. Dark Ritual, Leyline if the Void. He digs for his own Rituals to help hard cast a Grizzy, but succumbs to double Factory beats.

Game 3. Lotus Petal, Unmask targeting himself. Shows Iona, Sire, a Reanimate and nonland non relevant cards. While deciding which to discard he says “If you show me Surgical Extraction I will scoop.” I show him Extirpate.

3-0

Rd 4. Miracles.

The last time I played Redcap’s he and I split in the 4th round. We did it again.

3-0-1! Woo!

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Thanks for the report! I have considered lily as a way to get inevitability vs some decks.
Was Empty the pits a win card or a win more card?

Have a friend testing torment of scarabs as replacement for the abyss in a Black/Blue Modern Pox build. I’ve seen it in use and seems to carry more potential than I first have credit to it. Soft control with a potential wincon vs hard control for creature specific. Thoughts for use in an actual Legacy build?

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Thanks for the report! I have considered lily as a way to get inevitability vs some decks.
Was Empty the pits a win card or a win more card?

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I was worried about it being a win more card when I added it. I only had it in hand three times. The 1st was against Thalia Stompy, where the Lily emblem was not enough. I would have been over run if I didn't press the issue with my opponent on his heels. The 2nd I held onto too long instead of escalating or Smallpoxing and that might have been the reason I lost game 2 vs. Miracles. The 3rd (game 3 Miracles) I wouldn't have won without it.

I am going to try it for a little while longer even though it's horrible in the opening 7.

How is liliana, the last hope? I am thinking maybe go for board control with of her and four of the lotv.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

How is liliana, the last hope? I am thinking maybe go for board control with of her and four of the lotv.

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In my limited experience she was wonderful and ultimated both times she hit the table.

So, 100% success rate. Would cast again.

Upticking into nothing wasn't as painful as being the only one who discards to The Veil. The Last Hope's 2nd ability will almost never happen unless you play Tombstalker, which I don't.

I've been playing Last Hope too, and can confirm she is pretty much amazing. Ultimates easily in the anemic boards Pox likes, and while I wish her +1 was -1/-2, it's still a decent way to kill Snapcasters, Thalias, Pyromancers, etc.

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

Have a friend testing torment of scarabs as replacement for the abyss in a Black/Blue Modern Pox build. I’ve seen it in use and seems to carry more potential than I first have credit to it. Soft control with a potential wincon vs hard control for creature specific. Thoughts for use in an actual Legacy build?

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I actually have 4 in my build right now (standard build with 4 tombstalkers as my kill). I like it. I'd love it at 3cmc but it is what it is. Its taking the spot of LoTV since there is a considerable price difference and I have 0 LOTV currently. It is definitely a soft lock piece/kill card once the board is established.

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Originally Posted by ronco

I actually have 4 in my build right now (standard build with 4 tombstalkers as my kill). I like it. I'd love it at 3cmc but it is what it is. Its taking the spot of LoTV since there is a considerable price difference and I have 0 LOTV currently. It is definitely a soft lock piece/kill card once the board is established.

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I run The Abyss but was in love as it offers another potential kill while playing resource denial.i was thinking about running 2 mainboard for playtesting.

I wanted to post a quick report of a few games I played on MTGO last night, none of them were great and lost all three matches but maybe we can learn something from the experience.

My current build has been altered a bit from my last post, I have pulled 1 Scroll, 2 Lily Last Hope, and BBog to mainboard the Leyline/Helm combo just to see if I could get some easy wins with it.

MainBoard:
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Command
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 The Abyss
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Nether Spirit
11 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Maze of Ith

SideBoard:
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Collective Brutality
2 Lost Legacy (Trying in place of Surgicals)
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nether Void
1 Beseech The Queen

Match 1 vs Doomsday
Both games I couldn't lock him down enough to prevent him from going off pretty quickly. I Had Leyline in opening hand game 1 but it didn't slow him down too much. Needle didn't help much either, Game 2 I was able to Beeseach to a NVoid (Brought in from Side) but he Duressed me his next turn making me pitch it. I am curious what others would have done against a deck like this. Oh, Game 1 he won off Tendrils, Game 2 off Lab Maniac

Match 2 vs Maverick
Both games are a race, he gets Gaddock out both games but it didnt affect me game 1 that much. I keep IoK and IBlood him to keep his creature count down but Gaddock beats me down until he could get a KoTR out and I scooped. Brought in Bridge, CBruttality, & TDeluge. Landed a Leyline opening hand (to help combat KoTR), but Gaddock still landed and started beating me down. Drew a Beeseach and was planning on grabbing my Abyss with it but then Gaddock never let me cast it (Beseach has CMC of 6!), played a bridge two turns too late.

Match 3 vs Sneak & Show Post(?)
Game 1 I had the opening leyline, he didn't care. Landed a turn 2 sneak w/ griselbrand off of volc, tomb and petal game was over pretty quickly after that when he sneaked in Emmy. Game 2 was pretty much the same, did have leyline/helm in opening hand. But he ramped with posts into a Ugin turn 3, landed the helm next turn but then he -4 Ugin to get rid of the leyline. After that it was intuition into Emmy, dead....

Not sold on the Leyline/Helm package, might try it a bit more but I feel the occasional chance to win off it isn't worth it. My playgroup things mainboarding leyline in this meta is great since so much stuff depends on GY. Snaps, DRS, PastInFlames (ANT/TES), RoTK and while it is a insta-win when against Reanaimater or Dredge still not sure it does enough. Anyways, interested to hear your thoughts... All three of these match ups were kind of depressing LOL.

Land (25)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
7 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Enchantment (1)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

Artifact (2)
2 Cursed Scroll

Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery (19)
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Creature (6)
4 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
1 Tombstalker

Instant (4)
3 Dark Ritual
1 Fatal Push

Sideboard
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle

- Clayton Levi from Brazil. 2nd place Lampion finish. No idea why he chose 61 cards though. I don't own a chains...:frown:
Just ordered my Bloodghasts and polluted Deltas for it! Though I'm going to replace the Bog with my Nether Void because Reasons...:laugh: Need to figure out how to squeeze in Cabal Therapy.

I die a little inside whenever I see so many recurrable sacrifice creatures to enable Cabal Therapy, and see none in the deck list. Maindeck Innocent Blood, Fatal Push, and Toxic Deluge are all enough for me to avoid playing Cursed Scroll. I just don't like the way it forces you to play. I'm not sold on Sinkhole either, not by a long shot. I do however need to give the guy credit for such a great finish. My guess is the field was soft to Smallpox overall.

Delta could be any black fetchland, there are literally no blue cards FYI, just in case others were inclined to feel the need to get Deltas.

A piece of tech I've been considering is Entomb. It can fetch a Bloodghast, Nether Spirit, Cabal Therapy (for flashback), Raven's Crime, or Wasteland/Mishra's Factory if you have Crucible available. Seeing Undead Gladiator spoiled in Masters 25 has me thinking of somehow using that as a draw engine as well. It's a recurring threat that costs a little mana, not a problem, and a card in hand to discard. Once we have two going it becomes an engine. It's old tech, but it might be useful, especially considering some of us can't afford the big money items like Chains, the Abyss, Tabernacles, or Nether Void. I think it forces a particular way to play, similar to Scroll, which might be a bad idea. Hitting for 3 a turn is really nice though, and cycling for a card in a pinch seems pretty good to me.

I too loved Therapy in my older budget builds. I'm guessing the deltas are just boosted value fetch for ghast and yes any four swamp fetches work. I'd probably swap out some thoughtseizes for 1-2 therapies. No question.

I too dislike cursed scroll for reasons from the original primer. Even with lili in deck, it causes weird scenarios... Do I hold a spell? Do I do 2 damage? That's why I missed my old Chimeric Idols, but they can't work due to Mishra's :mad:

I ran zombie Kahmal a long time ago, he's a very mana intensive engine. I only ran just 1, though running 2 sounds odd. How would he work as an engine?

He would allow you to always get an extra draw for only 1B, or be a 3 powered threat you could always grab back from the graveyard. Recursive threats are exactly what Pox is looking for, like Bloodghast and Nether Spirit. Neither of those double up as a draw engine. Having 2 lands and a spare card to discard isn't hard at all to keep open, especially when you draw extra lands in the mid-late game that are useless. I always used him in Loam Pox back in the day, because discarding an extra land (that I almost always had) was easy to achieve. Another creature that can be sacrificed to Therapy and Smallpox with the option for getting it back later in the game. It's clunky, but in a long game drawing an extra 2-3 cards or having a 3/1 compared to a 2/1 or 2/2 could make the difference over several turns. It would also make late game Dark Rituals much more useful (and by useful I mean not 100% dead like usual, lol.)

I'm convinced these are the best win conditions for Pox in the current era:

Mishra's Factory
Bloodghast
Nether Spirit
Tombstalker
Liliana, the Last Hope
Bitterblossom


If we need removal, I think Collective Brutality and Toxic Deluge are better at gaining card advantage than Cursed Scroll.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

He would allow you to always get an extra draw for only 1B, or be a 3 powered threat you could always grab back from the graveyard. Recursive threats are exactly what Pox is looking for, like Bloodghast and Nether Spirit. Neither of those double up as a draw engine. Having 2 lands and a spare card to discard isn't hard at all to keep open, especially when you draw extra lands in the mid-late game that are useless. I always used him in Loam Pox back in the day, because discarding an extra land (that I almost always had) was easy to achieve. Another creature that can be sacrificed to Therapy and Smallpox with the option for getting it back later in the game. It's clunky, but in a long game drawing an extra 2-3 cards or having a 3/1 compared to a 2/1 or 2/2 could make the difference over several turns. It would also make late game Dark Rituals much more useful (and by useful I mean not 100% dead like usual, lol.)

I'm convinced these are the best win conditions for Pox in the current era:

Mishra's Factory
Bloodghast
Nether Spirit
Tombstalker
Liliana, the Last Hope
Bitterblossom


If we need removal, I think Collective Brutality and Toxic Deluge are better at gaining card advantage than Cursed Scroll.

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How is Undead Gladiator a draw engine? One of us is definitely misunderstanding something. Every time you return Gladiator to your hand you have to discard a card so it never provides any card advantage; it's not a black Squee.
Also if you want to return it and cast it in the same turn you need to have a card in hand before your draw step and have access to 5 mana, which is way too demanding for what you get out of it.

The nice thing about Collective Brutality is that it goes face if you have nothing else to do with it, which is part of the reason why Cursed Scroll is attractive. The comparison to Toxic Deluge is way off imo.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

How is Undead Gladiator a draw engine? One of us is definitely misunderstanding something. Every time you return Gladiator to your hand you have to discard a card so it never provides any card advantage; it's not a black Squee.
Also if you want to return it and cast it in the same turn you need to have a card in hand before your draw step and have access to 5 mana, which is way too demanding for what you get out of it.

The nice thing about Collective Brutality is that it goes face if you have nothing else to do with it, which is part of the reason why Cursed Scroll is attractive. The comparison to Toxic Deluge is way off imo.

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It's definitely a stretch on mana, which would in all practicality have to take place over 2 turns. One thing Pox is good at is spinning wheels without doing anything for several turns, especially after creating a depraved game state. *Shrug* Bloodghast/Nether Spirit is probably better. I'm not advocating it, it's really just a big of nostalgia. Some people use Raven's Crime, some people just play draw-go. I think in mono-black it's a lot less useful than with Loam, which provides lands to discard and get him back (and provides a cycler to save Loam in a pinch.) Again, it's a stretch. TL;DR- It's a way to do something when you are typically doing nothing. Conversely, this is why Bitterblossom is so good because it does work even when you aren't drawing anything.

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If we need removal, I think Collective Brutality and Toxic Deluge are better at gaining card advantage than Cursed Scroll.

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Same argument as above (doing something when typically doing nothing) for card advantage with Scroll, but scroll occasionally gets you in a pickle. Unless you have an active Liliana you can sometimes just get 2 cards in hand, which means it can miss, which is terrible. We've discussed Scroll several times in this thread and many people are moving away from it. I've seen Reid Duke (probably the most prominent Pox player in Legacy) have trouble with it on camera, and in his streams he has gone back and forth on when to use it and why. Deluge is a way to clean up creature swarms, which is going to be the role Scroll does if the board gets clogged anyways. Yes, Scroll deals damage, but so does Nether Spirit/Bloodghast/Factory. It's role as a finisher is much less important than for controlling the board, and Punishing Fire it is not. Not trying to be pedantic, but Toxic Deluge is card advantage if it takes care of more than one creature for only one card spent, which is the argument I am putting forth. And I already recognized that Brutality is a good pick, and in fact one I would pick over Deluge.

Undead Gladiator is less of a draw engine in the sense of card advantage, but it does provide you card quality if you have enough mana. It allows you to cycle dead cards for new ones which might be useful because decks like these both lack card quality management and tend to play a lot of cards which are less useful in the lategame (discard etc.).

Top was obviously boss at doing that, but there are very few options in black/artifacts that can help accomplish that. I don't think Crystal Ball is going to suddenly become good.

EDIT: Sea Gate Wreckage?