[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by SpoCk0nd0pe

I'd be very much interested in how often are you slowed down by wastelands?

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To be honest I haven't kept track in absolute numbers so I did 20 goldfish hands just now with the list posted above. So that's including Ports. Each time I did 7 rifleshuffles and 1 cutting of cards.

Number of times with no 2nd red mana on turn 1: 6
Number of times where I had an opening hand of 1 or 0 land hand: 3
Number of times no 2nd red mana after mulligan to 6: 1

I haven't taken into account hands that should have been mulliganed due to multiple lands nor have I kept track of the number of times I actually needed a second red mana source.

So that is almost 1/3 of the time I had to mulligan. Are those actually normal numbers for a (goblin) deck?

I might do some more hands later on.

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Originally Posted by Nelis

So that is almost 1/3 of the time I had to mulligan. Are those actually normal numbers for a (goblin) deck?

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For RB goblins that seems just fine to me. Mulliganing smartly is very important for this deck. One of the strengths of mono-red is that it takes less mulliganing. I've mulliganed plenty of hands like:
mountain, mountain, waste, matron, ringleader, warchief, gempalm

So I think your number would probably be higher actually. Usually, if a g1 hand doesn't have a lackey or vial, or an instigator with a good t3 drop, that will be a mulligan. Or a one land hand, although the equation for keeping a one land hand is pretty complex and can't be rooted in such black & white terms, at least for me. But it really helps for that one land to be a basic mountain.

I think warren weirding is good but not stellar against iona/progenitus. The most stellar option is to race, which to me means maxing out on instigators, and then have stingscourger to make sure he connects. Plus you get more consistency with RB. But if your metagame demands weirding then obviously you want to play it.

Oh and gempalm is awesome, especially if your metagame is aggro or confidantish. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Sure he does the whole clear-path-for-lackey thing, but that is minor compared to his role as a transition tool. He allows you to do a role reversal, because if you are on the defensive against a deck like bant aggro than that is a problem, and you will lose. He lets you get back to being the attacker, the aggressor, in every matchup.

Dark Confidant, from what I've seen, is a very big enemy of this deck. When dark confidant lives for a long time, you will almost certainly lose the game. Grim lavamancer is another enemy that is a big problem. However, gempalm also has his role like I explained above, and beats for 2, unlike mogg fanatic.

About relic maindeck, I tested it and hated it.

And I don't really think the synergy between instigator + chieftain is that bombtastic. He still can't even trade with goyf most of the time, the only thing different is that he can trade with more guys.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

For RB goblins that seems just fine to me. Mulliganing smartly is very important for this deck. One of the strengths of mono-red is that it takes less mulliganing.

So I think your number would probably be higher actually. Usually, if a g1 hand doesn't have a lackey or vial, or an instigator with a good t3 drop, that will be a mulligan. Or a one land hand, although the equation for keeping a one land hand is pretty complex and can't be rooted in such black & white terms, at least for me. But it really helps for that one land to be a basic mountain.

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Yeah I agree it must be higher. Luckily I've taught myself to mulligan aggressively. Although sometimes maybe a bit too aggressive. I never keep a 1 land hand. So many people keep bad hands which makes me win. I'm always surprised how often that actually happens in tournaments.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

I think warren weirding is good but not stellar against iona/progenitus. The most stellar option is to race, which to me means maxing out on instigators, and then have stingscourger to make sure he connects. Plus you get more consistency with RB. But if your metagame demands weirding then obviously you want to play it.

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I'm not sure if I completely agree with you on this one. Its hard to race Iona when it's on red. You basically need a turn 1 vial to get around this. I do find it easier to to race Progenitus because most decks with NoPRO combo don't run many creatures. Often they can't afford to attack you. But if we do ned to remove it Stingscourger is of no use. I guess I do consider Warren Weirding stellar in this case.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

Oh and gempalm is awesome, especially if your metagame is aggro or confidantish. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Sure he does the whole clear-path-for-lackey thing, but that is minor compared to his role as a transition tool. He allows you to do a role reversal, because if you are on the defensive against a deck like bant aggro than that is a problem, and you will lose. He lets you get back to being the attacker, the aggressor, in every matchup.

Dark Confidant, from what I've seen, is a very big enemy of this deck. When dark confidant lives for a long time, you will almost certainly lose the game. Grim lavamancer is another enemy that is a big problem. However, gempalm also has his role like I explained above, and beats for 2, unlike mogg fanatic

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My local meta is mostly an aggro aggrocontrol meta. Not much combo unless someone decides to ruin our otherwise perfectly magic sunday. :laugh: What you're saying makes sense so I guess I am right to run 2. If I need it, like in the situation you mention, it's often during midgame.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

About relic maindeck, I tested it and hated it.

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I´ve been thinking this over and I think it´s better to spend those slots on more goblins even if that unbalances the deck´s curve somewhat.

I guess with the Iona thing, I'm not sure it is worth to splash because it is the only card that really has no answer in mono red, is what I'm getting at, so in the overall picture I think the most stellar option is to stay mono red and just try to race it if it comes up. I haven't really tested the reanimator matchup so I'm not sure exactly how it goes, but against dredge we have plenty of ways to make sure dread return cannot come online g2/3.

Reanimate can reanimate on turn two and they usually do if they know their opponent doesn´t have counter backup. So you basically need a lackey or Vial before that happens.

I see what you mean. I must admit that one of my main reasons for splashing black is that I´m somehow more at ease playing Rb. Like I said a few posts earlier I like the creatures to be gone and not have them return the following turn.

But also it opens up a few more sideboard possibilities like Cabal Therapy. This also means that I have different options in playstyle than only to race in those bad matchups. There´s also a lot of ANT players in Holland where running black might be an advantage.

I have decided to take out 3 Rishadan Port for 2 Mountain and 1 Volrath´s Stronghold. I used to play Stronghold before and really liked it. I could even take out 1 more mountain for a goblin and run 23 lands

About the chieftain: I would never cut a warchief for a chieftain, the warchief just gives the tempo we need and thats way more important then +1/+1. I still like the synergies of chieftain and instigator plus he gives extra haste :) I think playing 2 or 3 of them gives mono r goblins a mayor boost.

Here is my current list:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
18 [B] Mountain

// Creatures
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

I'm not sure about the last 4 sb cards though. What do you think?

[edit]just thought about boarding 3 goblin kings against zoo and goyfsligh. They might get the punch you need against those annoying blockers but he might get burned anyway. Didn't test him yet, oppinions?

I think searching threads can be really useful. There is a search button in the upper right corner of the thread. In 5 minutes I found some useful stuff on goblin king.

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Originally Posted by Cyrus

Goblin King isn't really all that good, Mogg War Marshals are better than that against zoo.

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Originally Posted by Morbid-

Goblin King: I mainly say this for the Zoo matchup. Another Lord and the ability to sneak whatever isn't PtE'ed/Helix'ed/Lightning Bolt'ed in.

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Originally Posted by Alecthar

I don't know how I missed Zoo, but yeah, Goblin King offers evasion there. As for the rest: Goblin King is obviously pretty good in the mirror, though he is symmetrical, and is a terrible card to have if you fall behind your opponent in the mirror. I haven't seen many Burn decks that are overly concerned with blocking your guys. Matchups like Zoo, Goyf Sligh, and Aggro Loam are all tough regardless of King because there's a good chance he won't stick around for very long. I'm not saying King is terrible coming out of the sideboard, he isn't, but there are more effective ways to fight E. Plague. I've never played him against Zoo, but I imagine he'd get 1 for 1ed pretty quickly. Interesting thought, though, given that he circumvents the entire "Goyf sitting there blockin' me dudes" thing.

Keep in mind, though, that you asked why we weren't running more lords, not why we weren't talking about King in the board.

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Originally Posted by Space Ghost

About Goblin King- I ran 3 maindeck for a few years, until Chieftain was printed. The whole if he gets removed we're really screwed thing rarely happens. I admit it can happen, but with Lackeys, Warchiefs, Piledrivers, your opponent is usually out of removal spells. I think boarding him may be worth trying. It seems like it'd be good against Plague and Pyroclasm, maybe a house in the mirror, and look at Merfolk and Elves, they run like 8 and 12 lords right? If it works for them why doesn't Goblins run more lords as well?

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Goblin King: The lord ability can be good, but we already have 4 maindeck Chieftain, so it's not needed. Mountainwalk is not great either, cause in the mirror it plain sucks, and every other red-matchup (beside aggroloam and 43 lands) is going to run tons of removal. If we attack and king gets removed before blocks, we're probably in a bad, bad position.

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etc....

If you are going to have reliable combo hate in your sideboard, 5 is a bad number. You probably either want 4, 8, or 0. 4 is kind of awkward too, but it gives you at least a fighting shot, and is an okay number in a random metagame and you have the hinting suspicion combo will be there. 8 is what you want if you are expecting to face combo in 2+ rounds. And 0 is the default number, what you should go with in a regular metagame. I would play something like this, assuming you want some combo hate (as it was in your original board):

4 Pyrokinesis
3/1 Relic/Crypt
4 Thorn of Amethyst/Chalice of the Void (I personally prefer chalice)
1 Goblin Chieftain
2 Anarchy

Took this list to the 82 person up in vestal and ended up with 13th and playset of mires :smile: I took some sloppy notes and here is what I got out of the tourney.
4lackey
4ringleader
4warchief
4piledriver
4matron
2stingscouger
2 gempalm
2 SGC
3 chieftain
2 instigator
2 mogg fanatic (I explain)
4 vial
17 mountain
4 waste
2 port
board
4 thorn
3 crypt
3 relic
2 mogg fanatic
2 boartusk liege
1 tinkerer

Round1 URG thresh (bear/nimble/goyf/bolt/fire/ice)
Game one doesn’t go well. 2 fire/ice and 2 bolts and ringleader got counter spelled I lost that one.
Gm2 – being on the play he has to force my turn one lackey and I just keep the pressure on and in the end theres just too many gobs..
Gm3-wasteland is really good.
WIN2-1

Round 2 B/Gw
Gm1 thoughtsiezes, diabolic edicts, hymns, vampire nighthawks, gatekeepers, deeds, stalker – well you get the idea I did not win this.
Gm2 more of the same oo and just in case I sorta had a chance he boards in 3 plague..ha
Lose0-2

Round 3 WGU –NO Pro
Gm1 Even though fanatic is really bad this was cool. I’m on the play and go mountain lackey. He goes duel noble hierarch. I go waste and fanatic on hierarch to which he tells me he kept a one land hand because of the hierarch.
Gm2-wasteland is really good.
Win2-0

Round 4 Enchantress
Gm1 mulls to 5 but still sees 3 solitary confinement and elephant grass.
Gm2 On the play I’m too quick and he can’t catch up.
Gm3 only reason I win this is because of port. I have no business being in the game but keep him off his serra sanctum. It comes down to him needing to top deck an enchantment, which isn’t that hard but luckily he doesn’t!
Win 2-1

Round 5 Mono B Artifacts
Gm1 lackey-he doesn’t answer-I win
Gm2 he play first turn chalice with tomb. 2nd turn trinisphere. 3rd turn crucible (he has a factory) 4th turn the abyss!!. 5th turn razormane masticore! Wtf!? That was probably the most certain I’ll ever be that I cannot win the game.ha
Gm3 first turn lackey and he can’t catch up.
Win2-1

Round 6 Merfolk J
Gm1 he is on the play and I keep a bad hand because I get cocky since I know he is playing merfolk. Anyway I lose and deserve it.
Gm2 I don’t keep a bad hand and do what gobs is supposed to.
Gm3 See game 2
Win2-1

Round 7 Dredge (and if I win I make top 8)
This is the game I really wanted to post.

Gm1- I actually get one of my 2 maindecked fanatics, that coupled with him thinking I was using imperial painter (which my friend was using) he kept a hand that wasn’t very good against me and I take game 1.
Gm2 (I board in 3 relic, 3 crypt, and 2 other fanatics.) He is on the play and I drop a first turn relic which he proceeds to ancient grudge next turn. Then I waste his only land and play fanatic. He plays around fanatic I only got 1 bridge and just held his land until he needed it so the waste didn’t hurt him at all either.
Gm3 I drop first turn fanatic and crypt and am feeling pretty good and for the third straight game he goes first turn tribe! Next turn I waste his land but after that I couldn’t get any kind of attack going b/c I boarded out most of my creature hate and couldn’t do much against the tribe/couple zombie tokens he had and then he went off and I lost…I think I could have used the crypt better I waited and then he grudged it and I didn’t get that much out of the yard. The fanatic only got one bridge again.
Lose1-2

Comments: Dredge! I need some help with this. I made my list b/c I planned on seeing a lot of dredge and then when I see it I lose anyway. Please note that MD fanatic was only there for dredge. I knew it wasn’t a viable option otherwise. Also I really like the 4-2 split of drivers-instigators.

Fanatic just plain sucks. When I had 4 in there against the dredge deck it still wasn’t too great because then I wasn’t dealing him enough damage to put him on a decent clock. So hands I usually would mulligan I kept because I had a first turn drop in fanatic.(only referring to dredge) Long story short even if all I expect to see is dredge I still don’t think I would run them now. I don’t play a lot of good dredge so I looking for some comments because I know I could have played this better and it cost me the top 8. Questions: Did the dredge player get really good hands against me and am I overreacting? Is this matchup not that bad? If fanatic is as bad as I think it is then what other options do we have for dredge, is crypt and relic enough? Are crypt AND relic really viable boarding options without hurting the deck too much? Thoughts on what to board out?

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

I guess with the Iona thing, I'm not sure it is worth to splash because it is the only card that really has no answer in mono red, is what I'm getting at, so in the overall picture I think the most stellar option is to stay mono red and just try to race it if it comes up. I haven't really tested the reanimator matchup so I'm not sure exactly how it goes, but against dredge we have plenty of ways to make sure dread return cannot come online g2/3.

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Vial is a pretty good answer and Gempalm can be on some occassions. Postboard Relic obviously. In any case, we have bigger things to worry about as Iona barely sees play.

Moosedog if you want to beat dredge diverse your hate - And if you have 2 Mogg Fanatics in your sideboard only for Dredge there certainly are better answers.. The best card vs Dredge is Leyline fo the Void, just play 3-4 of those along with 3-4 relic/crypt if you want to beat it. you could play Ravenous Trap too, but Leyline is just better I think,

Moosedog, my list is only a handful of cards off from yours, my board however hasnt failed me yet against ichorid:

4 Wasteland
15 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port

4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incinerator
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Ravenous Trap
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Tinkerer

against Ichorid I take out -2 instigator,-2 SCG, -1 Stingcourger,-4 Vial, -2 Incinerator. In 2 Reb, 3 Relic, 2 Trap, 4 Pryokinesis.
thats alot of cards, but its pretty necessary to win consistently. Reb is good to keep them off 3 creatures(moeba) and to deny careful study and breakthough.

How many problems has your manabase given you to reach RR by the second turn? I tried a very similiar list sans the Ports over in Europe during the 270 man Frankfurt tourney but I found myself missing the Ports in several games. Is there a reason that you are maindecking Fanatics over more Instigators/Piledrivers other than a heavy presence of Ichorid in your local metagame?

I'd also recommend that you consider a one-of Sharpshooter in the SB and a 4th Relic over the two Pithing needles. Either that or cut the Needles and Traps for a playset of Blood Moons.

While Fanatic does suck, I think that if you tested it further, you'd find that more often than not Dredge isn't going to godplay around several pieces of hate. I'd take your list against Dredge any day. That said, I run between 6-7 yard hate pieces in my board and 0 for Storm Combo, because I don't think Goblins can solve both problems adequately.

Here is my current list. Zoo and Bant are popular players in the local meta, as are merfolk and goblins.

//Spells
4 Aether Vial
//Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Sparksmith
1 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
//Lands
4 Wasteland
17 Mountain
//Sideboard
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 ???

Marshal is so goo against any deck that swings, and Incinerators/Sparksmith go hand in hand with them. I may need another Chieftain because of the large amount of bodies Marshal can produce.

I am thinking of cutting Thorn for something and just punting the combo matchup. Also, is Relic better as Leyline? I've noticed that Dredge only has about 4 answers to Leyline even postboard nowadays, and it is the most crippling answer card, even if you have to aggro mull to it in monored. What should the last 3 slots (or 7 if I cut Thorn) be?

I dont like running Instigator as more than a 2of in the deck. Having more RR cost creatures makes it difficult to run port, which IMO is just amazing to have. Fanatic doesnt purely suck, he works in tandem with incinerator to take out larger creatures, can chump block a goyf and kill a noble heirarch in one shot, or go to your opponents face for the extra point of damage you need to kill. He is mainly in my list to combat dredge, which he serves a strong purpose against.

My board I actually think is quite suited for my meta which is mostly dredge, zoo, some countertop. I for-go the combo matchup since it is nigh-unwinnable unless I board just for that matchup. My last tournament I lost 2 matches due to artifacts(survival with vials, and NLU with shackles) so the needles and tinkerer are there to help in those situations. Other than that I felt really happy with the way my list played (which is the same as the one I just posted above).

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

I dont like running Instigator as more than a 2of in the deck. Having more RR cost creatures makes it difficult to run port, which IMO is just amazing to have.

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I think Instigator is the best turn 2 drop, the second best 2 mana drop and gets you a lot of tempo. In my testings the games in witch you are behind port just sucks because it slows you down so very much. And those games you need a card for extra tempo and pressure to win - Instigator. Just my 2 cents

Apparently the Jap's are playing Legacy too - Two fairly similar Rgb lists which made top 8 in a 178 tourney: (source: deckcheck.net)

Here I post the list used by pro Kuroda Masashiro:

4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Goblin Warchief
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Wort, the Raidmother
1 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial

3 Arid Mesa
3 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

SB

1 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Perish
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst

Apparently the splashes in both decks are primarily for the sideboard, this list only have 1 black card main in Warren Weirding. Also some weird numbers and inclusions - look for instance the ratio between Warchief and Chieftain, the 1 Mogg war Marshall, 1 Mogg fanatic, 1 Skirk Prospecter and 1 Raidmother. Honestly Raidmother just seems like a worse Siege-gang Commander maindeck, but I guess she is quite the beating when you can copy Perish (to fight counterspells), and to a certain extent Krosan Grip and pyrokineisis, and ofcourse you can copy the maindeck Weirding, which seems quite saucy too.. The 1-offs are in there to be tutored for I guess, but do you really want to tutor for Mogg War Marshal, Skirk or Mogg Fanatic? dont you just want to tutor for Ringleader and maybe draw into those or other goblins? I guess Mogg War Marshall is resonable enough to search for vs zoo, and if you just have 1 mana available the Mogg Fanatic can kill a 1-toughness that Gempalm cannot, Skirk Prospecter can get you out of manatrouble or combokill with SGC. Also note that the above 3 are all early drops, making the curve lighter and support the 4 maindeck Gempalms.. Last note that they dont play any Warren Instigators, and play 4 Piledrivers..

It seems to me that they tried to get past the early game without getting beat into a pulp by Zoo and do their thing midgame. This way its more important to have your creatures be a bit bigger (thus more Chieftains) and be able to get rid of early threats (hence the lower curve and 4 Gempalms). This also means that you only need Warchief later maybe turn 4/5 and not turn 3. I think they're right not to run 4 Warchiefs and 4 Chieftains. It's too much.

The inclusion of Perish is really smart. Its easier to get rid of the red creatures early game. Its harder to get rid of Goyf and to lesser extent Nacatl. If you think of it, when you waste a forest Kird Ape is 1/1, while the Nacatl next to it can still be 3/3.

I think we can all agree that you don't want to run Instigators with both Wastelands and Ports.

you can run instigator along with waste/port. you jsut cant run 4 ports and 4 instigator(which seems to be way too many even if running just mountain/waste manabase). I run 2 instigator and have not had a problem playing him when i want to.

I've been playing 3 Instigators with 2 port 4 waste (I'd fiddle with the land numbers, but I only own 2 ports right now and have higher concerns than those lands.) and haven't had a problem. I rarely hit the situation where i've got too many colorless lands, I mean sure it happens, but it happens so infrequently that I haven't felt that it's hurting the deck overall.