Thanks, I had already thought removal for Prelate, but didn't think about mom. From your testing is the hit to the manabase negligible?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
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Thanks, I had already thought removal for Prelate, but didn't think about mom. From your testing is the hit to the manabase negligible?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
Compared to other flex slot options it's effect on mana isn't bad at all; importantly, it casts Liliana. I personally have switched from it of late to run the DD combo, as DnT is down in my meta and TNN is up.Quote:
Originally Posted by rabidw0lf
I'm in the same boat and I agree Cabal Pit won't have any negligible effect on your mana base, although I've always played it instead of Stage+Depths. I dunno if I'd try to do both. I know apocalypse runs (or has run) both but I don't think he plays Liliana either so his colored mana requirements aren't quite as strict as the average 4c Loam deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
On a new card note, check out sweet cycling duals in Amonkhet. No B/G one yet, but I'd have to assume it'll be in Hour of Devastation. On the downside, cycling for 2 instead of 1 is really bad. On the plus side, increased mana fixing and having more lands to sac to Knight is good! Legacy is so low to the ground that I can very well see the 2 cycling cost as a deal breaker but it's at least cool we'll have some more options to playtest in the coming months!
Still, there is also Horizon Canopy, which did fix my mana in early turns quite often. It does not come into play tapped, which is a plus. Cycle duals are very interesting since they can be fetched. Although i think fetching for them doesn't happen that often. Also they can be sacced with Knight, which makes them 'useful' in the grind in combination with Loam. The more i think of the cards the more they interest me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephemeron
The fact that Knight can eat them makes them very interesting, and worthy of some testing for sure. There have been plenty of cases where I've felt short on lands that Knight can actually use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Wizards hasn't done the other half of a 10 land dual cycle in Standard since they swapped to the two sets per block mechanism so we may be waiting a while for the B/G bicycle landQuote:
Originally Posted by Ephemeron
The cost of {2} means that the land can be cycled under a blood moon while Barren Moor may not. I'll be giving the B/R (Canyon Slough) one a shot in its stead since there's a ton of painter, red stompy, and miracles in my meta.
I am not really sure if i can follow your logic here. If anything, ill probably be looking to try the G/W version before B/R (next to the default Barren Moor).Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrinshpon
Blech, that's a good point. I don't play standard so I had just assumed in the past they did a full cycle per block with the exception being Kaladesh since they're the enemy color version of the Scars lands. Didn't realize BFZ only had allied color duals. So only allied colors are apparently good enough to get lands you can fetch for. That's super irritating on the part of WotC but who the hell knows what they're all smoking when they design cards these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrinshpon
I can see it as part of the design change. Why bother calling them allied pairs when you have shit like Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate as Disasterpieces and Abrupt Decay, UR Storm running amok. Having WU, UB, BR, RG, GW as the featured duals rewards the player for playing the actual 'allied pairs'.
Anyway, I think this deck can definitely utilize the bicycles. Being able to fetch it, play Knight, then sac with Knight to start up your Loam engine is very strong, and using the Loam engine for drawing is not something we can do with consistency.
:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
I do still run Stage-Depths and Cabal Pit. I was not expecting much when trying it because I concluded Barbarian Ring was not desirable in 2013 or so, but the Pit has been pretty good. I would play it over Maze of Ith (despite Ith's various upsides) and also over grove #3 (which is probably fine because knight can search one up in the midgame). Getting threshold can be a pain, but a second knight activation can help with that.
Congrats to Aurelio Crespo for getting third in Eternal Weekend Europe.
Notable things about the list:
1x Centaur Vinecrasher in the main
1x Maelstrom Pulse main
2x Toxic Deluge (1x charm) in the board <3
No combo
25 Lands. (for reference Mats plays 27 and I play 28)
It seems like a decent list. I've run 25 lands in the past and it's fine, though you end up mulliganing because you have dead Mox Diamond hands a bit more often. I've actually been testing an additional threat in the main recently, though I've been running Tasigur instead of Vinecrasher. Vinecrasher seems like a fine option, though it doesn't fix my main problem with Tasigur, which is that it's yet another graveyard-reliant card. I'm much more excited about the cycle-duals since they're a big improvement over Barren Moor and Tranquil Thicket from a manabase standpoint: Canyon Slough makes having R from a non-Grove land more reliable, and Scattered Groves both improves our white source count as well as being another land for Knight (which can sometimes be the difference between winning and losing). I've tried Kjeldoran Outpost in the deck a handful of times in the past and liked it a lot when it got active, but often found myself tight on white mana and sacrificing a Plains is a real cost unless you have Loam active.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
Hmm, Kjeldoran Outpost is some pretty sweet tech. I'm kind of tempted to test it due to my increased white sources. Vinecrasher's best feature is you can get it back, but I'm also really not a fan of adding any more GY-dependent cards and a manland just seems better. If you are looking for another threat Thrun, the Last Troll isn't too bad.
Tranquil Thicket can be cycled under a Blood Moon while Barren Moor cannot, so I think it might be better to have 1 Tranquil Thicket, 1 B/R bicycle, and 0-1 Barren Moors (if running the full 3 cyclers, else 0 if running just 2), aka swapping the Moor for the B/R bicycle? Additionally, I like the idea of being able to fetch for an extra red source for Chandra, Volcanic Fallout, and Punishing Fire, whereas I never feel constrained on White sources, and green is reasonably prevalent enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
What? This can't be right.Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrinshpon
I think he's thinking of the basic Forest and forgetting about the Moxen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
I've thought about Thrun before, maybe I'll give him another look. As it currently stands, I'm looking for the last couple of cards to push the postboard Miracles matchup back over 50% without resorting to all-in hate cards lime Choke. Outpost and Ghost Quarter have been good, I'd just like one more thing. Bob has been really disappointing in the current removal-saturated meta, so I might go back to a second Sylvan Library and add a creature land, and 2 more slots for some more reliable source of card advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
Unless one runs basic Swamp offcourse. I used to Urborg, but switched to Swamp. One basic Forest did not provide enough ensurance.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
So if your looking to replace Bob you could consider Painful Truths.
Would you guys bring in Outpost in any matchup besides miracles (and I guess any other control deck that people play)? It seems a little sketch to bring in a land in against a deck that will bring in some nonbasic hate postboard. I like walkers a lot more since CJ and I guess snapcaster -> CJ are the only real ways they can deal with a resolved one.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
My thought was to try it in the main. Our sideboard might actually be tighter, and if I don't want it G1 I don't think I want to board into it.
Against miracles I'm as always on Chalice + Teeg or the like. So moons are among the biggest concerns.