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@wasabizod
I play the same main and it's nice to see it still works. Our sideboards couldn't be more different though.
For me, Relic of Progenitus (3), Flusterstorm (3) and Spell Pierce (2) are essential sideboard cards against wide variety of legacy decks. Seeing zero copies feels weird.
But if it works for you, change nothing.
Honestly, my sideboard is pretty much just generic responses to what I've seen at the LGS. I just moved into legacy a month ago after a decent hiatus from Magic (I stopped playing around Mirrodin) so the sideboard is pretty variable week to week. If I don't use a card, I remove it. If I need some sort of answer, I add it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FANAttIC
WRT Spell Pierce - I play 3 MD in modern, but hadn't included them here because I'm typically all-in on Chalice (same reason for leaving out flusterstorm). I'd love to know what decks to board out Chalice against and what kinds of answers may be helpful there.
Flusterstorm works perfectly well with Chalice of the Void - Chalice counters the spell but you still have several copies on the stack.Quote:
Originally Posted by wasabizod
As has been said, Flusterstorm works with Chalice and you don't always draw them so Spell Pierce is additional protection from combo.
Chalice can also be on zero against some decks, so having Pierce is good.
Hi guys and gals,
As an outsider (non-merfolk player) can I ask you lovely people a question?
Is there a *norm* concerning the amount of counter magic with Merfolk in general?
I ask, as sometimes I've played against Merfolk where I might as well be playing against Goblins, because the only counter they're running is Force.
Other times I've played against Merfolk I've struggled to play anything meaningful as the Merfolk player has a grip full of counter/cursecatcher and just runs the bare essential in perm's to nail me in the red-zone, and doesn't let me actually cast anything in reply with their free counter like Daze and FOrce.
I've generally found these different approaches will be more or less successful depending on what decks I'm playing, but I generally found the one's playing lots of counter to be better at stopping me play magic, and yet most decklists I see of Merfolk tend to concentrate in perm's rather than a large counter-suite.
Does anyone playing Merfolk even play Daze anymore?
Thoughts?
FANAttIC, I really like your list, I'm using almost the same MD here, but I'm using 2x Merrow instead of Clique. I don't have flusterstorm, what can I use to substitute it?Quote:
Originally Posted by FANAttIC
Thank you.
The closest analogue I could think of the top is Daze. I know it looks nonintuitive (to have Daze in the side) but it works in intended matchups.
Flusterstorm usually goes in vs combo or other spell heavy decks (obv is obv), while TNN and Jitte are likely candidates for sideing out.
That means top heavy part is gone and Daze is good again. With 4 Catcher, 4 Chalice, 4 Force + x Daze + x Pierce combo should be ok.
Hi, i'm new to the forum and legacy in general, so please be lenient.
Is there a fixed opinion about Harbinger of the Tides on the thread?
In Modern he is a "Vapor Snag" on legs and contributes to devotion very well, but could he be good enough for Legacy? I saw lists with the full playset main for a while, but now nobody plays him.
Are there any insights of the more dedicated players? In my experiences the tempo advantage was pretty nice (especially on Delvers with Chalice in play). Or is just the environment (Cascade creatures) not healthy anymore.
I don't want to hog this board but I will answer about Harbinger.
Returning Delver is great and mostly the only significant creature he will return.
Legacy and modern are different species (which is good for diversity) and some cards are great in legacy (speaking about Merfolk deck), like Image and Clique, while some are great in modern, like Harbinger and Tidebinder.
I wrote lengthy post somewhere about playable legacy creatures which can be returned by Harbinger, and that number is small.
We are packed in legacy, I think there will be no room for it.
Only my opinion, of course.
IMHO, it is difficult to find space for Harbinger of the Tides in the deck. I tried it fist in MD and it didn't work for me. I moved it to SB and it also didn't work (for me). It never worked (for me) because of its restrictions. First, you can unsummon only your opponent's creature. And that it fine since this is what I want to do in most of the times. But sometimes I'd like to be able to save my guys too. For instance, save True Name Nemesis from Toxic Delude. Second, the target creature should be tapped, and sometimes it is too late to do anything about it, especially if there is Mother of Runes in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokk
I personally prefer to run a couple of Echoing Truth and a copy of Rushing River in MD. Echoing Truth is good against tokens (for example, works extremely well with Miracles when your opponent with Counterbalance in play is casting-drawing two Tops to boost Mentor), and Rushing River with kicker is good in response to Wasteland targeting my non-basic land.
I, on the other hand, like having two Harbinger in the board. I play a creature heavy list (28 + 6 manlands) and I really like the interactions that happen with Harbinger. I like how I can remove their threat and still beat down afterwards. Thats my thought on it :)
Daniels - how do you like Merrow instead of clique?Quote:
Originally Posted by daniels
Budget restrictions. Merrow is an "ok" option imo. I would use clique, if I have it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wasabizod
Enviado de meu ASUS_T00J usando Tapatalk
Ah, got it. I'm playing in an event today and use a pretty similar MD to Fanatic but was interested in clique vs Merrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by daniels
Cheers!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hi all,
Sorry I couldn't post this earlier, I played in the eternal extravaganza last weekend. I went 5-4, which is not great; but the meta was super hostile (at least my pairings were). I played the list I posted earlier last week.
I beat Death & Taxes, Elves (twice), RUG delver, shardless BUG and lost to Reanimator, Esper stoneblade, lands, death & taxes
A round by round summary:
R1: lost 1-2 to reanimator. G1 I got my own Griselbrand and he could not longer race me. G2 i got locked under a quick elesh norn. G3 I had the image to copy elesh norn, but he had the SB disfigure. Reanimator feels 50-50 to me, it's quite hard to beat their good draws. 0-1
R2: beat death & taxes 2-1. He needs triple serra avenger to kill from 1 life in G1, but True Name and Jitte did some work game 2 and 3. 1-1
R3: lost 0-2 to esper stonebalde (erik smith). G1 I keep at bad hand (double chalice), although I'm 90% sure he's on stonebalde. Was a mistake, I was never really in the game. G2 I made a sequence of small mistakes that cost me the match. I really felt underprepared for this match up, I always found it very challenging to play. 1-2
R4: beat elves 2-1. My opponent mulliganed to a single cradle in G1 and doesn't draw another land for like seven turns. G2 he runs me over with a fast Natural Order. G3 I manage to lock him under chalice. 2-2
R5: beat RUG delver 2-1. I race double delver to win G1. G2 I flood a little and eventually die to rough tumble clearing the way for tarmogoyf. I'm in control of G3 and TNN finishes the job. 3-2
R6: beat Shardless BUG 2-1. G1 and G3 TNN goes uncontested. G2 he buried me under card advantage. 4-2
R7: lost 1-2 to Lands. He has two great starts with turn 1 loam into more goodies in G1 and G3. He misplays G2 and let me steal it. 4-3
R8: beat elves 2-1. He mulligans to five into a no lander G1. I die to turn 3 Natural order in G2, and G3 I lock him under chalice because he accidentally boarded out his reclamation sage. 5-3
R9: lost 0-2 to death and taxes. G1 I loose to triple SFM in spite of TNN. G2 I can't find a lord to finish him off, and he is able to equip serra avenger with batterskull at 1 life to take G2. 5-4
I was a win away from winning some duals, but I played so many bad matchups I wasn't incredibly disappointed. Still, I felt I could have played better a few times, and I wasn't so happy with my sideboard. Given my pairings, I wished I let Chalice in the board but that's probably just because I got unlucky. I think I'll keep them for the SCG Open at the end of the month. Factory was great: it killed my opponent twice and should have as well in my stoneblade match. Daze was so-so and I missed the second jitte main and the 3rd dismember and echoing truth in the board.
I'd make a couple of changes, MD: -2 daze -1 islands, +1 Jitte, +1 echoing truth, +1 factory; SB: -1 cursed totem, -1 Jitte, +1 dismember, +1 pithing needle.
This leaves me with :
4 Cursecather
4 Silvergil Adept
4 Lord of Altlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 True-Name Nemesis
3 Phantasmal Image
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
1 Echoing Truth
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Mutavault
2 Mishra’s Factory
3 Cavern of Souls
12 Islands
Sideboard
3 Dismember
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Back to Basics
Which is basically fanattic maindeck if I'm not mistaken (save for wasteland)
Thanks for reading
Dinosaurus - sorry to hear the rounds didn't go well, but definitely like where you finished on the MD (I play the same main deck as Fanattic).
I played 2 3-round events to day going 1-2, then 0-2 drop. I'm still not happy with the sideboard, but today was good for me since I played a lot of new decks.
Round 1 I beat Miracle Mentor thanks to echoing truth. TBH, echoing truth did work all day and I'm tempted to up my SB to 2 from 1 currently.
Round 2 I misplayed in game 3 against burn, playing a second mutavault (had 3 island, one mutavault out) allowing him to Price of Progress me for lethal.
Round 3 I lost to deathblade in a complete slaughterhouse. He went 2-0 on me, each game was T1 DRS, T2 Liliana. I FoW'd his SFM each time but Lil would just rip apart my hand and board so I couldn't reach critical mass.
Round 4 I played Goblins and went 1-2. We also played a fourth game during time between rounds and if I can get 2 TNN, he's hosed. Echoing Truth was also nice for the tokens off of Krenko, but it's a really hard match.
Round 5 I lost 2-1 to BUG Delver. The pilot (Nelson) is someone I play with often and the match feels 50-50. I beat him 2-1 before the matches started, so I probably kept sub-optimal draws.
So, a few questions:
1. What's the best way to deal with Liliana? Do you keep mana open T1/T2 to spell pierce? Anytime she hit the board, she did tons of work, and I was never able to attack at her. I'm still working on my SB, so Pithing Needle would be great, but never saw that :-(
2. What's the right line of play against Goblins? Mull unless you have a few Lords or TNN? Is that normally a good matchup and I just kept bad hands?
3. What games do you board in dismember against? I've been running Submerge since I see a lot of Goyf, but maybe Dismember is better in an open meta.
Cheers!
I also play FANAttIC's main (:tongue:).
Random thougths and opinions:
- Reanimator is maybe above 50-50 for me because other than 4 Catcher, 3 Image, 4 Force in the main, I have 4 grave hate in 3 Relic and 1 Cage, plus 2 Venser is nice for his Show route, plus additional 2 Pierce and 3 Flusterstorm. It is also low to the ground deck so Chalices work vs a lot of his cards.
- Factory is fun for pumping Mutavaults, I wish I had space for them.
- Why -1 Cursed Totem from your side dinosaurus? Half of your matches were good targets for it. Was it bad when you drew it or having just one is not enough?
- Echoing Truth is the Truth.
- Beating Lili usually involves playing Lord and Mutavault turn 3 (so we either sac Muta or have Muta to finish her off) or Catcher + Adept + Muta by turn 2 or TNN after Lili did her thing or having Vial to overload her. I don't think slowing down and keeping Pierce mana is the right play (at least not for Lili, I would save it for thier solution to TNN), we are the beatdown. I like having 3 Relics vs Lili decks, it just destroys their creatures whatever they might be, other than Confidant (Goyf, Lavamancer, Ooze, Tasigur, Angler, Souls...). Not to mention Punishing Fire and Life From the Loam. Turn one Relic feels like I am laughing in their face...
- Goblins is not a good matchup. We are the beatdown here, they have card advantage + Cavern/Vial on Goblins + Piledriver, so we transform to pure beats (TNN, Jitte, Mutavault for Piledriver, Dismembers, whatever we have, and a bunch of Lords). This is one matchup I would rather have Reej instead of Clique. It is hard leaving countermagic since the only thing we could counter is Pyrokinesis and ReB, but those are brutal.
This weekend I have a small tournament, I'm testing this list based on FANAttIC recommendations, but I'm not sure about the list. The meta here is probably full of Burn, Reanimate (most of them are Monoblack), some Delver (UR and Shardless), Maverick, Goblins, Lands and Omnitell.
Any recommendation? Any good list with Daze? I just don't have Clique and Flusterstorm. Here is my actual list:
12 Island
4 Mutavault
2 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Phantasmal Image
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Daze
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Dismember
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 2 Harbinger of the Tides
Quote:
Originally Posted by FANAttIC
Drew it twice, still lost to elves twice with it on the battlefield. Again D&T the value is too marginal. It was clearly worse than JItte, and I would also have preferred a needle or a chalice in this spot.... Wasn't too happy with itQuote:
Originally Posted by FANAttIC
Hi, if your meta is full of reanimator, lands, goblins and maverick, the recommendation is to +1 needle, +1 relic, -2 harbinger.
Peter
Chill might be a possibility. It would hit Burn, Red Delver, Goblins, and anything with Punishing Fires.
Alright team, my 75 is locked, passport in my bag and I'm heading down to GP Seatac today after work! Good luck to all of you who are going and I'll try to have report up soon after. Have a great weekend all :)
good luck, and have fun!
Unfortunately, I lost top 8 to a loss against an Omnitell. In the first game, I had two Cursecatcher and one Daze to stop his Show and Tell. I could stop the first Show and Tell, but he had two in his hands, so he won. In the second game I've sided in 3x Spell Spell Pierce and 2x Echoing Truth, left the 3x COTV in the main deck to help.
He tries to Show and Tell and managed to beat my FoW and one Daze, so the SnT resolved, but he had no more cards in his hands and I've won this game. The third game was awful. He won the counter war again (I just had Daze and one Cursecatcher) and beat me with his Emrakul.
Do I need 3x wastelands to fight against their sol lands and to make Daze more effective? Is there anything else I can do to avoid Flusterstorm?
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniels
Harbinger does nothing in legacy so you could replace them with Venser, Shaper Savant.
This way you could let Show resolve and bounce whatever he have. It could be bad if his thing is Sneak, but if he has no red mana you are golden.
You have too many slots devoted to creature fight: 2 Dismember, 2 Truth, Jitte and 2 Harbinger.
Some of those can be trimmed for Vensers if you still want to use Harbinger.
hi. i've never played merfolks, so sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, but why isn't Tidal Courier used anymore in merfolks?
If Master of Waves is not good/fast enough for legacy then Courier will not see play.
We also don't play that many creatures like Goblins do.
Thank you, I'll try your recommendations. I'll also test Arcane laboratory in the sideboard. I'm curious about one thing: how often you guys get flooded using 21 lands? one more land makes a lot of difference here.Quote:
Originally Posted by FANAttIC
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Flooding is an issue for sure. Some cards that can be used as mana sink are Jitte and mutavault. I personally like to play at least one mishra's factory to make use of extra mana in the midgame, but many prefer wasteland.
The deck often needs 4 lands to function fully, so I think 21 lands is necessary (the modern deck can play 20 because of spreading seas and the absence of jitte)
I believe 20 lands is probably right if you don't play clique and Jitte (like legacy merfolk did until recently)
How are we against MUD? Faced it twice in GP Seattle side events and it didn't work out. In both G1s I ended up drawing two Chalices, and dead cards never help, but I think I'm unlucky and/or playing the matchup wrong. The MUD players said Merfolk can overwhelm them early on before they can start dropping bombs, but I was never able to mount a significant offense. A likely mistake was not boarding in Dismembers: they said they really like to keep their Metalworkers and Forgemasters.
I found MUD hard as well. A fast start with a vial is probably your best chance to win, and Clique and Image can help sometimes.
I've only played it a handful of times. I like Dismember for sure
How to beat MUD:
Hold force for ugin, tidal warrior, bounce their blockers if you have it. That is about all you can do. Forgemaster is a kill if you are running dismembers(I dont), I generally don't care about metalworker. I kind of throw it out as a likely loss while I beat all the bluedecks in the room, luckily local meta only has 1 MUD deck at a time usually.
Heh I faced MUD in the first two rounds of a 5-round "Battle" where you need to over 9 points to get prizes (e.g. 3-0-1), so starting at 0-2 and counting on the rest of the room didn't exactly work. :tongue: I get that sometimes that's the best you can do though, and like I said I should have brought in Dismembers so I made some mistakes too.
Just curious: why isn't Metalworker a big deal to you? They seemed to ramp up as quickly with that as with actual Loci, and one opponent said that was a more important card to them than Forgemaster.
If they are ramping into a large creature and I have a vial, I am more than happy to let them have it(except hellkite), I will also happily phantasmal it/bounce it/etc. Ramping isnt the main issue in the match it is making sure to keep pressure on and not lose to the walkers.
So, my earlier question of when Harbinger makes sense finally gets an answer in MUD. I guess my Clique/Truth (the slot and thematic sibling of Harbinger) fills a similar role though.
Realistically, if Metalworker or Forgemaster are tapped they already did the damage, MUD also plays boots to give his threat hexproof and haste, so Harbinger is not the answer.
Hi all,
Short tournament report, I top-8ed a local legacy event today, playing the list I posted a week ago or so.
Round 1 ANT
G1 I mull to five into no interaction and he kills me turn one.
G2 I have double cursecatcher, and he can't move for a while. He has to spend two decays on lords to stay alive, which means that relic and cage stay in play. They keep him out of threshold/piF and he can't go off in front of double cursecatcher.
G3 He mulls into a no-lander and can't draw a land for four turns, when it's way too late.
1-0
Round 2 NicFit Pod (BUG)
G1 He gets pod going and kills double TNN with ministry of pain (ouch) but I someone manage to race him. I got a bit lucky this game.
G2 He cabal therapy TNN blindy, but doesn't have much to follow up. I play some threats and force a pod for the scoop.
2-0
Round 3 Death and Taxes, splashing red
G1 I have jitte online turn 3 but still loose to triple mom (the third one preventing jitte from connecting) followed by SFM into batterskull and SOFI.
G2 I get TNN + Jitte online and that's enough
G3 I get triple TNN and he quickly dies with a pair of sudden demise in hand
3-0
R4 R5, being the top seed, I double draw in the top 8
QF: Painter
G1 I'm on the play, I keep a very fast hand of vial, mutavault, three lords but no interaction. He has grindstone + painter and kills me turn 3. I don't mulliganing trying to find FOW was a good idea.
G2 His hand is slow, I find chalice to drag on the game. He tries to race me with dorks and then hides behind ensnaring bridge. I build an army of lords and venser the bridge twice for the win.
G3 He kills me on the upkeep on my second turn with pyroblast backup for my dismember thanks to ancient tomb.
The deck performed well, it had game against all opponents. He had great hands in the quarterfinals, but I had a fun time.
I'll play the same 60 for SCG Open next weekend, with only a couple of tweak to the board. Factories were great again today, I'd encourage people to try them.
Cheers!
Round 1 was recorded:
http://www.twitch.tv/phlogisten/v/26959967
Don't do "had all theese" unless he is your best friend or asked for it :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by dinosaurus
It's nice that you've won against few really bad matchups, which confirms that we are getting close to ideal main.
Is there any particular reason why you did not sacrifice Relic in G2 in response to his Infernal Tutor after he Cabal Therapied you for two FoW's? You had Cage in play so why not to purge graveyards to deprive him of thresholds and draw a card? Or you were concerned about two Abrupt Decays left in his deck and possibly hand?Quote:
Originally Posted by dinosaurus