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Shout out to this gentleman for his victory while also putting the aggro in aggro loam and eschewing the GSZ package for 4 Goyf. http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15140&d=291745&f=LE
It must be especially rewarding to put COP:Red AND Warmth in your sideboard and get rewarded against the burn player in the finals.
It's good in any non-combo matchup, especially ones where chump blockers are relevant or where you want a source of card advantage that doesn't rely on the graveyard. It's also got great synergy with Knight and the cycle-duals.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Outpost has been maindeck in all of my testing. I try not to worry too much about nonbasic hate since it's intrinsically good against us no matter what we do. I'm also much more concerned about Ruination/From the Ashes than I am about Blood Moon.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
It seems like a really good choice for that meta, and he was rewarded for it. If I were to go a similar path I'd probably opt for a little more redundancy on hatebears instead of the full 4 Goyfs, but there's a lot of merit to ending games faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephemeron
Agreed. There's a ton of Loam in my meta and has been for a while. One of the problems I've found is that once everyone started playing Surgical in their sideboards, they learned pretty quickly against 4cLoam that if you just surgical away all the knights, the deck loses a lot of oomph. Victory through Bob and Scooze is a tough road to hoe. If I knew I had to slog through a bunch of BUG piles and Delver, I'd definitely like to sleeve up some goyfs and just overload their removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
The downside to that approach is that you're giving up 3 virtual copies of Gaddock Teeg (this is mostly an issue if you expect an uptick in Storm combo, though he's ok-to-good in other matchups) and GSZ for Dryad Arbor as acceleration. I'd leave Scooze because it's reliably great for me, but if we cut:
2 GSZ
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor
(1 Deathrite Shaman)
That opens up a lot of potential slots to incorporate better threats while still having decent combo matchups. A first pass might look like:
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Ancient Tomb
(1 Lodestone Golem)
Golem is fantastic against combo in any deck that can play it, and Tomb is obviously better acceleration than GSZ-->Arbor when it comes to playing Chalice. That might even open up bigger changes if we want them:
-2 GSZ
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Dryad Arbor
-1 Deathrite Shaman
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Dark Confidant
+2 Ancient Tomb (or 1 Tomb, 1 City)
+3 Tarmogoyf
+1 Lodestone Golem
+2 Tireless Tracker
With Tracker helping to offset life loss from Tombs and Bob being slightly more painful.
This is all very theoretical, but I think I'll be doing some serious testing along these lines soon.
I think Tarmogoyf is fantastic in Aggro Loam decks, but it can be hard to find room for him in a "stock" list so I've only played 1-2 at various points (the 2 might have only been in a Burning Wish list not a Kronberger list).
It's also important to point out that GSZ isn't just a utility tool, but a consistency tool. And it's one of the best consistency tools available to non-Blue decks at that. Inconsistency is one of this deck's biggest weaknesses, so I'd be reluctant to cut GSZ primarily for that reason.
I get where you're coming from with this, I'm actually trying to think of ways to increase consistency as well. The alternative to cutting the GSZ package is likely to cut the Bobs for a source of card advantage that's a little more reliable, so additional GSZs and some more flexible targets. The downside to that is that you lose a lot of your 2 mana plays and you're still raising the curve overall. I'll probably end up testing both approaches, but I've been dissatisfied with both non-Knight halves of the creature plan lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphix
I'm not certain I follow the line of thinking that cutting card advantage cards (despite being unreliable, as you say) is a way to increase consistency. I'd probably be looking at dropping the DD combo, looking at my mana base in terms of cyclers and running two libraries.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I've seen a few 25 lander lists going up to three GSZ and upping the targets as a more streamlined approach, but even they were running 3-4 Bobs.
I am willing to admit I am married to the card though.
I actually treat Bob as a consistency tool in Aggro Loam as well. One way to draw the right cards is to simply draw a lot of them. I've played Aggro Loam lists with 0 Bob a decent amount and really felt a difference. Bob is a bit hard to evaluate because he looks kind of bad on paper (goblin piker you have to untap with to get any value), so I can somewhat sympathize with the desire to cut him. If not playing him my plan would be to play a number of extra Libraries/GSZ in his place.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I agree. Miracles is dropping to 17 lands in order to have high spell density, decks need to be able to compete with that. Bob, Library, and Chalice give us the tools for the long game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphix
Wait, what? Is this really a thing? I haven't seen miracles play less than 20 land. If we ever get to a point where Miracles can play fewer lands than Delver and still be the best deck I think I might have to quit Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
I guess someone may be doing it, it certainly isn't the norm...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephemeron
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post998221
Not sure if it's the norm at all, and probably wouldn't apply 4C Loam since we play Wastelands, but some people are doing it.
Looks like it might just be for Miracles mirror, based on the other posts referencing a similar sideboard change.
But yeah, when the marquee control deck of the format is playing 17-18 lands, something's up.
Ohhhh, ok, it's a sideboard strategy against the miracles mirror and 4c control and stuff like that. That seems a lot more reasonable. I'll come in off my ledge now haha.
3-1 at the weekly last night. It had occurred to me that I hadn't actually run the deck without the DD combo in a long time, so I ran a ghost quarter and a cabal pit in those slots and honestly it felt fantastic.
RD 1, Infect 2-1
Originally I felt this match up was more even, nowadays I find it pretty hard to lose.
Obviously they have draws where they have t1 idiot t2 kill you, but in general our density of removal and mana disruption is more than they can handle.
Not much else to report for this really, other than feeling silly when my opponent told me he doesn't run daze - I'm sure this isn't the norm, correct me if I'm wrong.
Classic deck that dies to chalice, pfire and wasteland.
RD 2, Enchantress 2-1
I don't have very much experience with this match up, no one usually runs this locally.
The games I won he mulled to 4 and ghost quarter worked overtime being able to mess with his utopia sprawls.
It ended up feeling like a goldfish race honestly, they have a formidable amount of lock pieces that your abrupt decays need to line up well with.
Does anyone have any insights for this match up for the future?
RD 3, 4c Delver 0-2
This felt pretty tough, usually feel pretty good with this match up but they definitely can get an edge on you when you stumble on land drops.
He also played like, a million TNNs, and with my current list down to 2 LOTV it was definitely a nail biter.
MD abrupt decay lined up well against my chalices, usually a huge trump in the match up and I just couldn't seem to piece anything together while he had a strong start both games.
RD 4, Grixis Delver 2-0
Definitely better than 4c, the lack of abrupt decays is pretty major.
I was on the play game 1 with a t1 GSZ for 0, turn 2 kill your DRS, wasteland your only land for the game GG.
Game 2 was definitely more of a game with some nice swingy plays and a surprise Chandra, Torch of Defiance from my opponent.
Eventually a pair of 12/12 knights is just too much to handle and a tabernacle kept her elemental tokens in check.
In general the match up seems pretty skewed in favor, they can definitely hobble together some problematic draws with good cabal therapies and Young Pyros.
Boarding for Grixis I tend to take out teeg and a pfire (expecting surgicals), bringing in The Tabernacle and a Deluge.
I have a pair of STPs that seem they'd be pretty reasonable though I do struggle with finding things to cut for this match up.
Has anyone been giving ghost quarter a whirl recently? My highlight of the evening was tutoring for one after my opponent pithing needled my wastelands in an attempt to protect his inkmoth.
It's always in my sideboard, partly for density of wastelands, mostly because needle/surgical tend to be brought in against us post board. Haven't been disappointed yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by juzamjimjams
There's an enchantress guy at my shop and chalice on one for utopia sprawl and wild growth, wasteland, charms,deluge do work. Enchantress ramps hard so keep them off mana. Kill sera sanctum ASAP and decay the enchantments that let them draw.
They have a lot of protection so you may want to save your decays for those and rip helm, but chalice really slows them down
Yeah, Infect is a great matchup for us. I was testing against my buddy the other week and I felt like the only way I could lose is if they had a god hand. Chalice, wasteland, and tons of removal is way too much for them to overcome usually. I'm a little surprised your opponent isn't running daze, it's really good in infect and therefore usually at least a 3 of.
For enchantress, I'd prioritize killing their enchantress effects, since without the ability to draw extra cards, the deck is just a clunky pile. Wastelands are good for sanctum but otherwise a bit mediocre since they run a ton of basics. This is a matchup where Ghost Quarter will really shine for you since they'll play Utopia Sprawl and stuff like that on basics. Bring in Charm and Deluge to take care of Argothian Enchantress and save Decay for the really troublesome stuff like Enchantresses Presence.
This. Just kill their engine pieces via decay and lili, land a chalice and also land a teeg which shuts down a bunch of their win conditions: helm, replenish, the angel making enchantment, etc. The deck is a huge pile if they don't get anything going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitend89
On enchantress, cant echo enough what has been said already. My buddy plays alot of random decks one of them being enchantress, so I have played that matchup far too many times. Keep their engine down and try to kill them quickish. If they start hiding in their pillow fort, it will snowball and you will get locked out until they want to kill you. Teeg and chalice can slow them down. if they do resolve Solitary and protect it with groves. Deathrite can get the final points of damage in.
Got a good lead on 4 Groves locally, so I will eventually be joining you guys in aggro-loam land! Just need some GSZ, 1 knight, dryad arbor and another windswept heath now, and maybe a couple sb cards. Thanks to all who offered their advice last week!