Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ziggy_stardust
Most of what I've learned is from the school of Lossett, so I can't recommend his stream enough (well, aside from the fact that he is now focusing on other archetypes, like Tezz, but he still brings out the Miracles from time to time).
Joe Lossett is a good player, but his success outside of Magic Online is not great. Did he even made Day 2 at the last Legacy GP? His version from my experience just seems to be the least good one against Delver decks, which are a great part of any BIG legacy tournament. I also don't get the hype of Venser. This card sucks against Delver decks, Death and Taxes and most non S&T Combo decks (yes you can bounce things and srew infernal tutor, but still not good against Storm), where he still is not that great because Griselbrand will still draw a bunch of cards.
Sadly the only real pro that ever played Miracle is Raphaël Lévy, and although his list is outdated and has a strange land count it's still one of the best lists of Miracle (even better than Joe's, he would have more success with Raphaël Lévy's version than with his).
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Can we talk about the deck instead of making this a huge pissing contest?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
You can't possibly have played with Venser and say it sucks against D&T. It's amazing against equipment (well really it's good against their whole deck). Now, I can understand someone arguing that D&T is such an easy matchup that you don't need Venser. But that doesn't appear to be your point.
And while I don't think my tournament results are particularly impressive lately aside from the fall invitational, how does not making day 2 of one particular event prove anything?
It isn't surprising that very few pros play miracles. It is not an easy deck to play, and almost by definition they are devoting most of their time to other formats. The comment about Levy I think is precisely backwards. He is holding himself back by not playing a better build.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adryan
Joe Lossett is a good player, but his success outside of Magic Online is not great. Did he even made Day 2 at the last Legacy GP? His version from my experience just seems to be the least good one against Delver decks, which are a great part of any BIG legacy tournament. I also don't get the hype of Venser. This card sucks against Delver decks, Death and Taxes and most non S&T Combo decks (yes you can bounce things and srew infernal tutor, but still not good against Storm), where he still is not that great because Griselbrand will still draw a bunch of cards.
Sadly the only real pro that ever played Miracle is Raphaël Lévy, and although his list is outdated and has a strange land count it's still one of the best lists of Miracle (even better than Joe's, he would have more success with Raphaël Lévy's version than with his).
There're couple issues with a post like this.
1. off-tangent
Are we discussing deck or player? Discussing a player's performance vs another player's performance at different tournament size is unfair most of time. Are you suggesting that the Legacy tournament size has to be 1000+ in order to be valid? United State's Legacy circuit, which is usually done by SCG, has about 200~500 per, is fair in my opinion. Joe finishing 9th in SCG:LA (281 players) speaks for itself, take it for what is worth.
Now, when it comes to Levy, is he a better player overall? The answer is probably yes, but that doesn't say much since we are talking about all formats. Even if you filter down to Legacy alone, with any decks, the answer is probably still Levy. However, that's based on randomly picking a deck, giving to 2 players. You cannot make strict comparison if they're not running identical 75.
Therefore, I would leave out the player names and just focus on discussing deck lists. Doesn't help when you start discussing a player's success to draw conclusion about the deck itself.
2. deck itself
when you discuss decks that are published from given tournament, you have to take into account which area it is from and what was trendy at the time. Obviously, Joe's focused against Sneak and Show, which was popular at the time. Levy's list is for everything but combo. The bottom line is really to understand deck lists and decide what is best for you locally.
With the current TNN meta, Levy's list is looking well-positioned again.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
@ joe
Ok it was wrong to state that Venser sucks against D&T like it sucks against Delver decks. But he still was mediocre at best, and i've seen myself wanting other cards more whenever i had Venser against D&T
Maybe i haven't played enough matches against D&T with Venser (only more than 10 i think, but against an extremely good player), but he still feels unimpressive against a lot of other decks.
F. ex. against Esperblade he feels clumsy, and i rarely was ever in a spot where i prefered Venser over a fourth JTMS. Of course i can be wrong about him, and it would be a great pleasure to read a deep analysis why Venser is such a great and needed card in your eyes. Yes he's versatile and can do a lot of things (i watched your stream and learned all the tricks when i started playing Miracles a few months ago), but he still feels clumsy in the midgame and doesn't provide a great board impact. I think playing a fourth Jace is better against more decks in the current meta than Venser.
@twndomn
I didn't want to minor Joe Lossetts results or his experience with this deck, but i don't think it will bring much progression for this archetype if everyone thinks that Joe's list is the best and no other good player ever touched Miracle.
Raphaël Lévy's list is at least as good as Joe's. Every list is better in a different meta, but in a wide open meta, like a GP Levy's list will be better, because it's stronger against Delver and non Miracle Jace decks etc. and maybe even Jund.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I don't think you need to worry about everyone blindly assuming my version is the best. As far as I can tell, almost nobody plays the exact list that I do. The two others that I see streaming miracles online (bahra and truckis) both often play a small stoneforge package in the sideboard, which has a significant impact on many matchups.
I also think it would be nearly impossible to determine a BEST version of the deck. Playstyle has too big of an impact. For example, I could never play Levy's list. I want to be able to keep many one land hands, and you probably can't consistently get away with that with only 20 in the deck.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adryan
Raphaël Lévy's list is at least as good as Joe's. Every list is better in a different meta, but in a wide open meta, like a GP Levy's list will be better, because it's stronger against Delver and non Miracle Jace decks etc. and maybe even Jund.
If we are looking at the same list (GP Stasbourg) then I don't understand how you can even come close to making a comparison. That list is so completely outdated that I don't know what you expect to get from it (Jace Beleren and Path to Exile?). While I'm sure Raphael is a great player, I don't understand how someone can come to the conclusion that exchanging Counterbalances for Elspeths and dropping down to 20 land is stronger against Delver decks.
I think most of the interesting things about this list have already been explored and either incorporated into main stream lists (maxing out on sweepers) or cut (Elspeth in a TNN meta for example). Testing out a full set of Ponders might be the exception because that is one thing that few Miracles players (me included) are willing to mess with. I really hate Misdirection and shame on you Joe, but really when all is said and done, I think Joe's list is one of the stronger ones to look at right now.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I like the idea of humility main.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
That nice guy
I like the idea of humility main.
In Strasbourg I took my Noble Hierarch and rammed it up Raphael Levy's ass with a Sword of Fire and Ice on it for three turns and won that game. He had Humility in play. Maybe it feels better than it is? It is the same as Moat, you like it, but is it good?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
I also think it would be nearly impossible to determine a BEST version of the deck. Playstyle has too big of an impact. For example, I could never play Levy's list. I want to be able to keep many one land hands, and you probably can't consistently get away with that with only 20 in the deck.
There's always a BEST version of any deck in a meta. Of course you can't have THE best but you can come as close as possible.
Guillaume's Pro Tour Theros Top 8 Esper Control was a masterpiece for the expected meta and he would have probably won, if he would have played perfectly.
Saito's current U/W list is also really close to the best Control list in the current standard meta. If you use a lot of math and are an excellent player or at least intelligent and think a lot about every choice, you can always find a list for every deck that is perfect or very close to perfect.
I'm also not a fan of the playstyle argument. For me there's always the right play with the biggest expected value. Things like it depends on "playstyle" will hinder your development as a player, because there's always a best play in any given situation.
I also could be wrong, but that's my opinion. I just never was in a situation or i never could imagine a situation, where math, knowledge etc. can't help you and the best way to play the game further is your playstyle.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
^^^
Control is about answers and solutions to problems. Each tournament presents different problems. You can walk into some tournaments with 3 Rips and additional hate in your board and dominate. That lisy is better than Snapcaster into Ponder any day.
Anyway, I wrote a thing.
RE: My report. I was just trying to get something written and out before it all went from my head, and so I could mull it over myself too.
The list I played was sort of in preperation for SoL. I have in the past played Ponders and Snapcaster Mages, but everyone's going to just be slamming "1W: Target Blue player has nightmares" at Paris, so wanted to get familiar with this much slower variant. My old lists would also play 3 Counterbalance and 3 StP. After some discussion with Ross he convinced me to play 4 Swords whether I liked it or not. There was a game where I cast all 4 and 3 Wraths, so I'm happy for that. We then discussed the discrepency between his 4 Counterbalance, 2 Jace and my 3/3 split. He argued that the full set of CB's allowed you to assemble it incredibly quickly, whilst also being able to just throw them into countermagic and still have loads left later on. Random additional threats are always good. I argued the same for Jace, and we agreed that just playing loads of both was good and we'd have to find room elsewhere. That room came from cutting Helm of Obedience. I also hated drawing RiP against some decks that are quite popular in England, so felt that just the one would suffice. As a later game play to empty the yard. With the Helm cut I wanted a 4-drop that I could Tutor to counter Jaces and Sneaks (amongst other things), and Humility seemed way too good to pass up. I wanted a Moat, but making everything 1/1's against things like Delver, Stoneblade, and any of the tribla decks was a sweet trade-off, not to mention its uses against Sneak.
With the permanents sorted the Spells fell into place the second Tutor was always there when I was considering the permanents, and never left. The four Wraths were always necessary, with the Verdict taking the fourth spot as it costs 4, which is useful for CB and earlier casting without setups, and also being super good against Delver/TNN decks what with it being uncounterable. I then opted for 24 Lands due to me cutting cantrips. A fairly straightforward idea, but a friend of mine (David Inglis) played ThopterSword with 3/6 Plains/Island, and I was excited to up my basics count as it was.
The board was mostly going to be 1-ofs from the start, either as random bullets, as is the case for the Cage, or to up the counts on my main deck, such as in the case of Terminus and Verdict. I always expect a fairly open field and prepare for everything at English tournaments, but skew towards things like Loam and Nic Fit, which is half the reason I feel UW Control is good in England; everyone's making guys, relying on the Graveyard, or playing a Delver variant.
Disenchant is better than Wear & Tear, sadly. 2-1's are rare, and it just fucks your mana up when you need to deal with things and either start getting Wasted or do go for the Mountain. I was fine when I was playing Pyro with it, as Clasm achieves a lot more, and they can rarely untap into a Waste for much value. I loved the Mountain all day, but I think it was a psychological thing. I don't actually recall it being better than a Volc in any situation, and I never fetched it. I also don't play REB, so that's a thing.
The Legends in the board were for a change of pace. I can switch into Flash Creatures aggression where necessary, and Clique is good against combo, with Venser helping in the S/T MU.
Going forwards, there is the aforementioned removal of Red. B2B serves the same overall purpose as Blood Moon. It doesn't destroy decks in quite the same way, buy it makes you better against 3-colour Delver, and buys you time all the same, and then they blow it up whilst you already have 6+ Lands in play so you've already won. The Pyro comes out for a Propaganda. Pyro is a million miles ahead of Prop, but Prop is also good against S/T. Would I use a Moat if I had it? Maybe. It's unDecayable, but it also costs a lot, and I'm casting it through Thalia. If anyone has any good 2-mana Artifacts/Enchantments (or 3-mana Creatures) that I could try out in this slot I am open, as I feel it is all I'm missing right now.
The Lands become 4 Plains, 7 Islands, 9 Fetchlands, Karakas, double Tundra, and a Gate. I may cut a Basic for a 10th fetchland in this build, as it's always nice to have Fetchlands, but that does bring me into a lot of life payments for my mana and efficient draws, so I may not. The next week or two will tell.
I hope this was more what people were after. I'm not a big player, so I'm not entirely sure what exactly I'm supposed to pay attention to for these reports and things, and it really showed in my sideboard plans. (I only pulled Jace out in one match, which I now know was wrong.)
I'd also like some advice about boarding out Counterspells. I'm never sure when it's correct to pull out my Forces (and/or Counterspell) and would like a more general idea of what it is good against. It obviously stays against the more Spell-based decks, and comes out against decks that are pure card advantage such as Jund and Shardless, but against things like Nic Fit and D/T I feel like it should come out, but felt like I could really use it for a few things in the MU's when I didn't have it.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
YamiJoey
The Legends in the board were for a change of pace. I can switch into Flash Creatures aggression where necessary, and Clique is good against combo, with Venser helping in the S/T MU.
Yes, you should have at least 3 flash creatures in your 75. I prefer 3 Vendilion Cliques. The reason for this is that we have so few threats matches against "unfair" decks can be very hard without a clock. Clique gives the requisite clock, while giving information and disrupting the opponent. In my opinion it is the best card we can run against any unfair decks.
Quote:
Going forwards, there is the aforementioned removal of Red.
I think that a lot of people are losing focus on the important questions. Namely: What matchups will I expect to face frequently, and how much do I need to improve these matchups. Furthermore, after you decide which cards you want, you should consider if there are any alternatives. For example, REB is nice vs. delver decks, but frankly creature removal plays almost exactly the same role against them. In my opinion when red is most valuable (ie esperblade decks and combo decks), such decks are not running wasteland and thus you shouldn't need to fear fetching volcanics in those particular matchups.
Quote:
The Lands become 4 Plains, 7 Islands, 9 Fetchlands, Karakas, double Tundra, and a Gate. I may cut a Basic for a 10th fetchland in this build, as it's always nice to have Fetchlands, but that does bring me into a lot of life payments for my mana and efficient draws, so I may not.
Now here's a question that hasn't been talked about much, but is something we should all consider: how many fetchlands is ideal? I used to run 9, considering 10 just like you. However, there was the life loss that was annoying, but what was worse actually was having too many shuffle effects. Often I'd have to get land, but I'd also really want the cards on top of my library and wouldn't want to shuffle. I'm not really sure what the ideal number is, but I've been running 8.
Quote:
I hope this was more what people were after. I'm not a big player, so I'm not entirely sure what exactly I'm supposed to pay attention to for these reports and things, and it really showed in my sideboard plans. (I only pulled Jace out in one match, which I now know was wrong.)
Something that really helps is to browse the DTB forum, then write down your SB plans for each match. Doing this multiple times before a tournament will really help you for your sideboard plans. While helping you play better, this also has a very important effect for our slow deck: helping us not lose to time. Doing this exercise also helps you make sure your board matches up properly with your deck. For our deck we can have some polarizing cards for particular matchups. I could throw 15 creature hate in the board, but I probably wouldn't even have that many cards I want to board out!
Quote:
I'd also like some advice about boarding out Counterspells. I'm never sure when it's correct to pull out my Forces (and/or Counterspell) and would like a more general idea of what it is good against. It obviously stays against the more Spell-based decks, and comes out against decks that are pure card advantage such as Jund and Shardless, but against things like Nic Fit and D/T I feel like it should come out, but felt like I could really use it for a few things in the MU's when I didn't have it.
Basically, I take out force of will against any fair deck that doesn't have any truly powerful spells. This is primarily aggro decks, and you will win these matchups through attrition and generating some advantage over time via top, terminus, balance, or Jace. Force puts you behind for a little bit of tempo that you usually don't need in these matchups. I'd leave force in against combo decks or anything playing Jace, as a general rule. As for normal counterspell, I never board this out unless I'm against a vial deck. It can answer any card they play, and the 2cc cost is only an issue in the first couple turns. However, after sideboard our curve is usually a little better anyway. In fact, I usually play 3-4 counterspells in my 75 (since they're good against all archetypes), usually with 1 in the board to bring in as a catch all. Other people might disagree with the numbers and usage of counterspell, but it's always been one of the most universally solid cards for me because it helps being a relatively efficient answer for any type of threat that's useful against almost every archetype.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Valtrix, You mean to say 3 Vendilion Cliques correct? (I don't think you meant 7)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
Yes, you should have at least 3 flash creatures in your 75. I prefer 7 Vendilion Cliques. The reason for this is that we have so few threats matches against "unfair" decks can be very hard without a clock. Clique gives the requisite clock, while giving information and disrupting the opponent. In my opinion it is the best card we can run against any unfair decks...
7 Cliques! Judge!
All kidding aside, Clique is amazing. There should always be 2+ copies in the 75 I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
...Now here's a question that hasn't been talked about much, but is something we should all consider: how many fetchlands is ideal? I used to run 9, considering 10 just like you. However, there was the life loss that was annoying, but what was worse actually was having too many shuffle effects. Often I'd have to get land, but I'd also really want the cards on top of my library and wouldn't want to shuffle. I'm not really sure what the ideal number is, but I've been running 8....
For the old supreme blue lists 9 was usually the number. I'm at 10 right now and sometimes whether I should shuffle is a hard decision. I don't think there is a different 22nd land I would run instead though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
Something that really helps is to browse the DTB forum, then write down your SB plans for each match. Doing this multiple times before a tournament will really help you for your sideboard plans. While helping you play better, this also has a very important effect for our slow deck: helping us not lose to time. Doing this exercise also helps you make sure your board matches up properly with your deck. For our deck we can have some polarizing cards for particular matchups. I could throw 15 creature hate in the board, but I probably wouldn't even have that many cards I want to board out!
I really like this approach. Its similar to what I do for large tournaments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
Basically, I take out force of will against any fair deck that doesn't have any truly powerful spells. This is primarily aggro decks, and you will win these matchups through attrition and generating some advantage over time via top, terminus, balance, or Jace. Force puts you behind for a little bit of tempo that you usually don't need in these matchups. I'd leave force in against combo decks or anything playing Jace, as a general rule. As for normal counterspell, I never board this out unless I'm against a vial deck. It can answer any card they play, and the 2cc cost is only an issue in the first couple turns. However, after sideboard our curve is usually a little better anyway. In fact, I usually play 3-4 counterspells in my 75 (since they're good against all archetypes), usually with 1 in the board to bring in as a catch all. Other people might disagree with the numbers and usage of counterspell, but it's always been one of the most universally solid cards for me because it helps being a relatively efficient answer for any type of threat that's useful against almost every archetype.
I take force out even more than that - and will often board down a few copies if not all of them vs Jace decks because I have access to REB effects. Counterspell prettymuch comes out vs goblins and that's really about it for me.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
YamiJoey
^^^
Control is about answers and solutions to problems. Each tournament presents different problems. You can walk into some tournaments with 3 Rips and additional hate in your board and dominate. That lisy is better than Snapcaster into Ponder any day.
I'd also like some advice about boarding out Counterspells. I'm never sure when it's correct to pull out my Forces (and/or Counterspell) and would like a more general idea of what it is good against. It obviously stays against the more Spell-based decks, and comes out against decks that are pure card advantage such as Jund and Shardless, but against things like Nic Fit and D/T I feel like it should come out, but felt like I could really use it for a few things in the MU's when I didn't have it.
1. Given the fact that you have data of previous tournaments or you can know what's popular you can do some math and therefore build a deck that's good in the current meta. Legacy is very open, although Delver decks remain the biggest part (please also note that there are a lot of Delver variants currently that don't rely on the grave). So if you want to have success with Miracle keep in mind that the Delver matchup is very important at a big Legacy tournament (>1000 players), then you have TNN/ SFM, Jace decks, Combo etc. just look it up (there's lots of data around the internet. So you want a Miracle list that is mathematically good/ decent against the majority of decks, you are about to face. With that in mind you build the perfect list for a given tournament. The % of some decks in the metagame is of course not 100 % correct, but there won't be any big surprises like f. ex Jund being 20 % of the field. Its more like +/- 1-3 %.
So there's always a perfect list for any tournament. Of course you can play in the first round against Lands, then against Dredge and be very unhappy that you didn't play RIP Miracle. But that's just variance. The majority of the time you will have more success when you analyse a lot and build the best list for a tournament.
2. No. Snapcaster into Ponder is not what is strong about Snapcaster. It's the fact that he's good in every matchup. He can be another removal spell, another counter, another cantrip. He can even delay Liliana and or pressure Jace slightly. He's just so flexible, is not clumsy like all the Blood Moons, Energy Fields, Rest in Peace, Humility you may have in your E- Tutor Miracle. He's even more flexible (not powerful) than Counterbalance because he can interact with the board. Snapcaster Mage is needed for this archetype, because you are a Control deck and Controldecks want two things: 1. Flexibility 2. Card Advantage
3. Why do you play Force of Will against Combo decks? Because they don't have redundancy. There are a lot of cards that you don't care about but there are a few key spells you need to counter at all cost.
The same can be applied to other decks. F. ex. Maverick. They don't have a lot of redundancy. They have so many cards you don't care about but there are (were ^^ deck is dead) some key cards that you are very afraid of -> Armageddon, Teeg plus Mother, Planeswalker.
So depending on your list it is good to not board all FoW out.
Same can be applied to a deck like Nic Fit. About what cards do you really care? Not many so maybe leave in some Forces.
Decks like Shardless BUG, Jund have a lot of redundancy, so FoW is bad there. Of course there are some other factors like the abundance of Discard etc. but in general my concept can be applied to a lot of decks.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adryan
2. No. Snapcaster into Ponder is not what is strong about Snapcaster. It's the fact that he's good in every matchup.
Snapcaster in every deck outside of miracles that he's been played in has an upwards of 16 valid targets. Standard, Modern, Legacy, you name it. In most Miracles lists, there's only 10. That's assuming that counterspells are good in the matchup. If your Spell Pierce are dead, you're down to 7 or 8. At that point, it's closer to a combo piece that requires one of the 8 matching components to get a payoff. I suppose an Ambush Viper is always a thing, though...
Levy ran all those Ponders in his list because of this. He also was building Miracles in a metagame dominated by Shardless. Thoughtseize, Hymnn to Tourach, and the like force topdeck situations, and Snapcaster is one hell of a value-bear against those decks. Snapcaster -> Ponder is only bad if your opponent has a Deathrite Shaman untapped and in play, and I've played that scenarios in Modern enough to know that it's still in your favor. I'm willing to bet that Levy would be back on 3x Counterbalance in another GP, given the disappearance of BUG. Also, you said no pro players played Miracles. You should scroll through this list sometime:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t[T2]=3&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=11%2F10%2F2010&end_date=02%2F02%2F2014&city=&state=&country=&start=&finish=&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name[1]=Sensei%27s+Divining+Top&simple_card_name[2]=Counterbalance&simple_card_name[3]=Entreat+the+Angels&simple_card_name[4]=&simple_card_name[5]=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison[1]=%3E%3D&card_qty[1]=1&card_name[1]=&comparison[2]=%3E%3D&card_qty[2]=1&card_name[2]=&comparison[3]=%3E%3D&card_qty[3]=1&card_name[3]=&comparison[4]=%3E%3D&card_qty[4]=1&card_name[4]=&comparison[5]=%3E%3D&card_qty[5]=1&card_name[5]=&sb_comparison[1]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[1]=1&sb_card_name[1]=&sb_comparison[2]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[2]=1&sb_card_name[2]=&card_not[1]=&card_not[2]=&card_not[3]=&card_not[4]=&card_not[5]=&order_1=date+desc&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show+Decks&p=1
You can track the progression of the deck, right up to the virtual printing of the BGx deck by R&D after Miracles swarmed that Invitational. This isn't just some fringe deck that got dreamed up, one day.
I do think it's funny that you got on Joe for not making Day 2 at the single American Legacy GP of the year, while ignoring his finishes at 8 or 9 round SCG Opens. I'm inclined to put more stock in his 9th place finish at an Open, than a laundry list of FNM-sized Daily Event cashes that the version you're advocating has gotten, recently. I personally don't like Joe's individual card choices at all, but I think he's just such a strong player that he gets there regardless. I'm even guessing that Joe's stream is what caused Legacy dailies to even fire consistenly on MODO. No wonder the top deck on MODO is Miracles. (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy) Do we have any data on the percentage of Miracles decks that are joining the dailies in the first place? Calling Levy a "pro" and leaving Joe out that category in regards to this deck is ridiculous. I recall watching Levy do commentary at a Euro GP and him talking about how much he dislikes Control. That should tell you something.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
You just don't take Joe's list or a RIP list and make f.ex. -2 Rest in Peace -1 Energy Field and put 3 Snapcaster into it. Yeah then probably Snapcaster Mage is not strong.
And your analysis about why Levy played the version he did is completely wrong. Just look it up. There wasn't a huge thought process of " hmm Shardless BUG is gonna be popular i have to this and that".
He played the version he played because he likes it. Always assuming that there's a big deck everybody has to prepare for is also wrong. This is Legacy. If there's something that is widely considered as a best deck in the format, it will be about ~10% at a GP.
So it's definetely possible that you won't face it. So preparing a whole deck and making cardchoices because of one deck is stupid and was not what Levy did.
Also thank you for posting a list but i could'nt find any Pro. Maybe there are some but definition of a Pro is at least one Pro Tour Top 8 or several GP Top 8's. Everything else are just achievements of good players in my eyes. But of course you can have a different opinion about that and consider Joe as a pro.
Just one more thing. I think it has more with the fact to do that Wotc actually supports Legacy on Magic Online. The majority of MOCS cards were Legacy cards. Cards for 2014 were Natural Order and Tropical Island.
But yeah probably maybe Joe made some players join Legacy on Magic Online, but i doubt that he's responsible for Legacy Dailies.
The numbers of Miracle decks actually fluctuate very much, and some weeks Miracle was like 3% of the meta.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I wasn't actually disputing Snaps or Rips, I was just making a point thatbthere is no one list, and it's not really even close. Certain Delver variants are 58 cards strong in the main in virtually every build, with the additiona two or three flex slots and the sideboard being where you make your meta calls, and even there you always end up at seven or so cards that must be boarded, or played in the flex slots. With control we don't even have a set number of Lands, never mind the arrangement of them.
Can we stop dicking about and get back onto some discussion about the deck rather that its players? You have to be good at Magic to win consistently with this deck. Let's move on and discuss stuff that maybe hasn't bee discussed yet, or not yet resolved.
My question: Why do some of you run so few Lands? I would NEVER drop below 23 again in this deck, with 24 bring my goto number. I also seem to be running a lot more basics. My low counts were 7, with my usually opting for 8. Some play much less. I'm now around 10. What brins you to play so many fragile Lands?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hello,
The number of lands you want is determinded by the castingcost of your spells, the grade of libary manipulation
and the draw and shuffle effects you have in your deck. So for our deck to do what it should be need double blue
and one white and one addtional land to cast most of your deck . So every land after the fourth is not so important to you and
maybe a bad draw in some situations, expect Karakas in the legendsbuild. For the late Game you need additional lands to cast
Entreat but our grade of libary manipulation is great engough to find these lands in time. So since you only need 4 Lands seven easyly fetchable
basics a engough for our Manabase i would think over that again when more stiffles will be played but for now you have 10 fetchties and / basiscs
so you have 17 outs and you just need 4 lands from it. Its even better if the enemy don´t play wasteland and its worse if they play waste, mindcensor
and vindicate. Some thing which could be ourruing again after the Sotl release.
Ok this counts only for the UW version because of the soild manabase.
In the UWr you need more lands because you have to fetch for double island then one plain and then you have to find a mountain
to get you deck efficient and prevent dead draws from REB and consorts. Yes you could argue that we can play Volcanic and this
is easier to find but also easier to disrupt and so you have to bring at least a mountain and a Volcanic to be shure you maybe get
your Red mana.
Last but not least I have to answer to this.
Quote:
Please do some math guys, i don't want to post that in detail, but REB is a lot more versatile/ better than Oblivion Ring.
A card can as fleible as you want if you can´t cast it. So assuming we are talking about the save way to play mountain cause half of the decks
were you are playing Reb have Wasteland(4 out of 8 decks to beat) so a mountain is quiet the right choice to avoid getting wasted half of the time and that we need
double UU and one W land for or deck to work safely.
Ok if you agree then we can discuss how we get this mountain in time without srewing our Manabase. Most of the time we have 6 Fetchlands
4 Scarlding Tarn and 2 Arid Mesa.
for this exapmle I assume we got a hand with a r/x fecthland and a U or W basicland without top or brainstorm.
There is a chance of 10% to get one of those at our first turn. But even if we get it we have to fetch for blue with it.
So the chance for the other five will change to 9% without addiotional draw or top. But even if we find it again we will fecth for blue again because
we need UUW to have a stable Manabase. So in the third turn we only have a chance of finding a fecthland which we need to fecth for the mountain
of 7% which is not realy such a high number.
You can say yes but we have other fetchlands and yes thats quiet true but the 4 other fetchlands have a chance of 6% in the first, 7% in the
second and 7% also in the third if you get one of those the chance will decrease for the following turns. So we can say that it is more likely that
the fetch we draw is one of the R/X lands.
Finding the mountain is with 0,016% for the first, 0,019% on the secound and 0,019% at the third turn
to low to relay on this. In comparrsion the percentage of finding a other land is if you play 23 land is 20% at
the first, is 23% at the second turn and 23% at the third turn. Again if you draw a land of those the chance will decrease slightly.
This is only for the deck if start. If you are on the draw it will increase slightly because your libary cotains one card less.
So there is a chance of 93%pecent to not find the fecth for the montain without disrupting our manabase by our own. For me this chance is to
high and so I chose the UW varaint to enshure I have no manaproblems.
Best regards
Teveshszat
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
How about UWb?
Humility
Dread of Night
Makes DnT cake.
Can also use Night of Souls' Betrayal and Engineered Plague to get extra mileage out of that Humility. Also, going black gives us Massacre.
