[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by sampi

What does everyone think about putting deep analysis back in the deck? Careful study not having flash back can sometimes be annoying. Also being able to use LED for colliseum and flashback a deep analysis seems strong. Then when you don't have it in your opening hand it's not a dead card in the gy.

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I'm not much of a fan of Deep Analysis, but I can see running it as a singleton if you feel like you're never hitting the draw-engine cards you need. The trouble with Analysis is that it's virtually impossible to cast from our hand and it's unlikely we'll have the mana to flash it back without using LED.

Still not sold on Amalgam. I'm glad to hear people have been using it successfully, though, and I agree that it might be a useful card for getting around Extraction effects. Its ability is free, too, which is good. Still, it feels like the worst recursive creature we have because it's dependent on other recursive creatures to come back. I'm interested to hear more if anyone does further testing.

Regarding PImp versus Street Wraith versus Amalgam versus whatever else, I've come to feel like Wraith is a really important addition to the deck—if not because of its power, because it can help us get around Chalices and Thorns. I've pretty much broken even with Eldrazi (even with Scion tokens) by siding out Careful Study and some singletons for a third Wraith, one or two Rays of Revelation, a Dread Return, and some extra reanimation targets. Blazing Archon is rock-steady, especially with Ashen Rider backup. Might not be necessary with Elesh Norn around, though.

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Originally Posted by sampi

What does everyone think about putting Deep Analysis ..... being able to use LED for colliseum and flashback a deep analysis seems strong. Then when you don't have it in your opening hand it's not a dead card in the gy.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I'm not much of a fan of Deep Analysis .... The trouble with Analysis is that it's virtually impossible to cast from our hand and it's unlikely we'll have the mana to flash it back without using LED.

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+1 Exactly the same reason for me. There will be games where you'll have 2 or 3 lands open, but I tend to find Thalia, Wasteland etc. tends to muck that up.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Regarding PImp versus Street Wraith versus Amalgam versus whatever else, I've come to feel like Wraith is a really important addition to the deck—if not because of its power, because it can help us get around Chalices and Thorns.

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I like Wraith for the same reason. Permission just can't really do anything to stop Wraith enabling a dredge, but I tend to keep them in hand as long as I can postboard, to answer something like Surgical Extraction should they target a dredger.
Given extraction seems to be the gravehate of choice for a lot of decks these days, Wraith isn't too shabby a choice... :wink:

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Originally Posted by slave

I like Wraith for the same reason. Permission just can't really do anything to stop Wraith enabling a dredge, but I tend to keep them in hand as long as I can postboard, to answer something like Surgical Extraction should they target a dredger.
Given extraction seems to be the gravehate of choice for a lot of decks these days, Wraith isn't too shabby a choice... :wink:

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I have not found the same. Wraith is great against Shaman. But in my experience, quality players know that there are usually only 3-4 targets for Extraction that are threats, maximum. They won't waste one on a Dredger if there's any chance you have a Wraith, or already have access to another dredger.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

I have not found the same. Wraith is great against Shaman. But in my experience, quality players know that there are usually only 3-4 targets for Extraction that are threats, maximum. They won't waste one on a Dredger if there's any chance you have a Wraith, or already have access to another dredger.

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If they don't have any other options they're not going to sit on their Surgical until you hit a bridge or Ichorid or Narco which may be the right move in SOME cases, but not all. If we have the chance to therapy they're not going to have the luxury of time on their hand. Although I would say that even using Surgical to clear Therapies would be decent because we not longer have the sac outlet and have to rely on blocking creatures to get zombies or solely rely on Ichorid dying. :/

Most of the deck's that run Surgical, run counters. If they have no fear of you comboing with Narco due to Extraction they can afford to counter Therapy. This doesn't change no matter what build you are playing, but Wraith doesn't help it much. Strictly speaking against Extraction that is.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

....in my experience, quality players know that there are usually only 3-4 targets for Extraction that are threats, maximum. They won't waste one on a Dredger if there's any chance you have a Wraith, or already have access to another dredger.

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Fair enough. I find Bridge, Icky & GGT are the main targets, usually in that order, against the more experienced opponents.
Thing is, with DRS being a useful little bugger, I find a fair few opponents will use DRS and extraction to take our dredgers.
YMMV and all that I guess.

I've actually been going back to Pimp of late. Being able to discard from hand in response to a DRS/extraction can be useful too.

Is the Eldrazi MU dice-dependent? Faced again Jund (2-0), Pox (2-0) and then Eldrazi (1-2), two times on the draw, two losses from being on the draw.
Only hate was three Faerie Macabre that never showed up.

Probably switching the 4th Prized Amalgam (in SB) with the 4th Abrupt Decay or the 4th Nature's Claim.

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Originally Posted by meffeo

Is the Eldrazi MU dice-dependent? Faced again Jund (2-0), Pox (2-0) and then Eldrazi (1-2), two times on the draw, two losses from being on the draw.
Only hate was three Faerie Macabre that never showed up.

Probably switching the 4th Prized Amalgam (in SB) with the 4th Abrupt Decay or the 4th Nature's Claim.

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hi meffeo, on modo the eldrazi players typically sb into 4 leyline and many will mulligan to 5 to find one. how has your experience been with that?

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Originally Posted by meffeo

Is the Eldrazi MU dice-dependent? Faced again Jund (2-0), Pox (2-0) and then Eldrazi (1-2), two times on the draw, two losses from being on the draw.
Only hate was three Faerie Macabre that never showed up.

Probably switching the 4th Prized Amalgam (in SB) with the 4th Abrupt Decay or the 4th Nature's Claim.

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

hi meffeo, on modo the eldrazi players typically sb into 4 leyline and many will mulligan to 5 to find one. how has your experience been with that?

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Our biggest problem against Eldrazi isn't graveyard hate. It's a problem, but they might to need to mull for it, and oftentimes they're strong enough G1 without it to not need more than one or two pieces of hate. I wouldn't be surprised if people are running a bunch of it, but I have a feeling that's just because they've got sideboard space to spare while the Legacy metagame figures out what to do about the deck.

On the draw, we need to strike gold quickly and to avoid getting locked out by Chalice/Thorn. So our 1-cmc cards are the first to go (except for Therapy, because paying costs can't be countered) because they get wrecked. I've boarded out singletons of Looting and LED in the past, but I'm starting to feel like dropping to 10-11 lands might work a bit better. What's difficult is figuring out how to replace those cards and how many Faithless Lootings, LEDs, and lands to keep in the deck.

Taking out those cards is pretty drastic. It also makes the deck play a lot more like manaless dredge. It's worth pointing out that if we draw first, we're naturally in a position to pass the turn if we don't have any 1-cmc action (or if that action's been turned off), which is what manaless builds do as a matter of course. Trouble is, of course, that manaless builds are pretty much all business, and we've got a lot of dead weight (lands, cantrips) that gets in the way of natural dredges.

So we need to draw/dredge cards without paying :u:, we need to stop them from racing us, we need to hit consistently with our dredges, and we need to worry about losing Bridge from Below and our hand disruption. I think having as many recursive creatures as possible is important because Eldrazi Spawn wreck our usual Bridge engine, so I can see the use in running a few Amalgams or Nether Shadows in the side. I'm still on the quad Ichorid plan in part for the same reason. Street Wraith cantrips for free, so I'm playing a quad postboard. I've had much better luck against Eldrazi ever since I started boarding out Careful Study and bringing in the extra reanimation package. I usually board in Blazing Archon, Ashen Rider, and (sometimes) FKZ. Blazing Archon has lost me the game only once, when I decked myself because the opponent kept tapping it down with Drowner. I bring in the Rider to stop opposing Metamorphs and cards like Drowner or Displacer that really mess with us. FKZ is just there for goes-fast, but G-Brand might be all we need.

With regard to graveyard hate, I'm becoming more interested in Ray of Revelation than I had been previously. Costs 2, so it's good in the face of Chalice. I've been bringing in two of them and no other removal, but I don't know that it's enough against 4x Leyline. I also think it's only really useful in a couple of matchups, so I don't know whether it's worth it to go up to 3-4.

In game 3, if I'm on the play, I often go back to something close to my G1 build. We're strongly favored on the play if we can get our engine going quickly. And if they don't open with Leyline.

I'm also interested in hearing how common the quad-Leyline 'board is for Eldrazi. The local metagame's pretty small and I don't play online, so I only get to play against one person (he happens to be the best player in said metagame, for what it's worth).

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Our biggest problem against Eldrazi isn't graveyard hate.
.....
I'm also interested in hearing how common the quad-Leyline 'board is for Eldrazi. The local metagame's pretty small and I don't play online, so I only get to play against one person (he happens to be the best player in said metagame, for what it's worth).

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I tend to agree, but I'm like you. There's been only one guy I've played locally who runs Eldrazi, and what hate he plays I don't know at this stage.

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Took the Dredge to the local. Good turn out. Went 4-1
Beat UG-Miracles (2-1), R-Burn (2-0), some Bant-Maverick style deck (2-0), RG-Belcher (2-1)
Lost to Grixis (1-2)
I was running 13 Land, 3 Icky, 1 DR, 3 P.Imp, otherwise typical list
Side: 2 DR, 2 Iona, 1 Ray of Revelation., 1 Ingot Choo, 3 Claims, 4 F-storm, 2 Unmask

For Miracles, I sided the DR package & Unmask. Got Unmask in my grip & used it turn1 on the roll to grab RiP, grind from there. G3 was a blow-out.
Burn was a blow out, as was Bant. I got some very good T1 hands/dredge's! :laugh:
Belcher got me in game1 with a massive swarm of goblins. From there I used discard and wrecked him in g2 &3.
Grixis was horrible.
I won game1, after that I decided to go all-in aggression and go for speed. He repeatedly took my biz and I just couldn't stabilize.
FWIW, he extracted Bridge & GGT (game2), Bridge (game3), together with DRS.

Grixis doesn't seem like a bad matchup to me. I've beaten this deck a few times, but last night they just blew me to pieces, quickly. :cry:
Was I lucky in previous encounters? Or is this a genuinely difficult opponent?

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Our biggest problem against Eldrazi isn't graveyard hate. It's a problem, but they might to need to mull for it, and oftentimes they're strong enough G1 without it to not need more than one or two pieces of hate. I wouldn't be surprised if people are running a bunch of it, but I have a feeling that's just because they've got sideboard space to spare while the Legacy metagame figures out what to do about the deck.

On the draw, we need to strike gold quickly and to avoid getting locked out by Chalice/Thorn. So our 1-cmc cards are the first to go (except for Therapy, because paying costs can't be countered) because they get wrecked. I've boarded out singletons of Looting and LED in the past, but I'm starting to feel like dropping to 10-11 lands might work a bit better. What's difficult is figuring out how to replace those cards and how many Faithless Lootings, LEDs, and lands to keep in the deck.

Taking out those cards is pretty drastic. It also makes the deck play a lot more like manaless dredge. It's worth pointing out that if we draw first, we're naturally in a position to pass the turn if we don't have any 1-cmc action (or if that action's been turned off), which is what manaless builds do as a matter of course. Trouble is, of course, that manaless builds are pretty much all business, and we've got a lot of dead weight (lands, cantrips) that gets in the way of natural dredges.

So we need to draw/dredge cards without paying :u:, we need to stop them from racing us, we need to hit consistently with our dredges, and we need to worry about losing Bridge from Below and our hand disruption. I think having as many recursive creatures as possible is important because Eldrazi Spawn wreck our usual Bridge engine, so I can see the use in running a few Amalgams or Nether Shadows in the side. I'm still on the quad Ichorid plan in part for the same reason. Street Wraith cantrips for free, so I'm playing a quad postboard. I've had much better luck against Eldrazi ever since I started boarding out Careful Study and bringing in the extra reanimation package. I usually board in Blazing Archon, Ashen Rider, and (sometimes) FKZ. Blazing Archon has lost me the game only once, when I decked myself because the opponent kept tapping it down with Drowner. I bring in the Rider to stop opposing Metamorphs and cards like Drowner or Displacer that really mess with us. FKZ is just there for goes-fast, but G-Brand might be all we need.

With regard to graveyard hate, I'm becoming more interested in Ray of Revelation than I had been previously. Costs 2, so it's good in the face of Chalice. I've been bringing in two of them and no other removal, but I don't know that it's enough against 4x Leyline. I also think it's only really useful in a couple of matchups, so I don't know whether it's worth it to go up to 3-4.

In game 3, if I'm on the play, I often go back to something close to my G1 build. We're strongly favored on the play if we can get our engine going quickly. And if they don't open with Leyline.

I'm also interested in hearing how common the quad-Leyline 'board is for Eldrazi. The local metagame's pretty small and I don't play online, so I only get to play against one person (he happens to be the best player in said metagame, for what it's worth).

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I agree with boarding out Study vs Eldrazi. I disagree with removing LED. it's the most compact way to load/reload after removing a Leyline. I always choose to draw versus Leyline decks that can't cast it. It's the best way to win the mulligan sub-game that often happens in those matchups. I've found that about 60% of the Eldrazi decks run Leyline. 30% Macabre, and the other 10 random nonsense like Relic. I disagree with removing lands, especially if your answer costs 2(Ray). However, if you keep said lands, and want a 1W answer to Eldrazi post-board, the best I've found is Serenity.

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

hi meffeo, on modo the eldrazi players typically sb into 4 leyline and many will mulligan to 5 to find one. how has your experience been with that?

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Actually, that was my first experience against Eldrazi and as I wrote, my opponent's hate was composed of three Faerie Macabres.

The DDD plan might be an option but I'm not sold on that, since the deck is particularly fast and has some broken starts (Turn1 Chalice of the Void set to 0 + 1 and / or Thorn of Amethyst. Do they really need gy hate pieces?

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Originally Posted by meffeo

Actually, that was my first experience against Eldrazi and as I wrote, my opponent's hate was composed of three Faerie Macabres.

The DDD plan might be an option but I'm not sold on that, since the deck is particularly fast and has some broken starts (Turn1 Chalice of the Void set to 0 + 1 and / or Thorn of Amethyst. Do they really need gy hate pieces?

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if you check out the mtggoldfish decklists for leagues most eldrazi on there run 4 leyline, but it is the modo metagame.

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

if you check out the mtggoldfish decklists for leagues most eldrazi on there run 4 leyline, but it is the modo metagame.

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How do you usually board against those decks? It looks like a fuckin' nightmare, even if in my humble opinion is really dice-dependent.

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Originally Posted by meffeo

How do you usually board against those decks? It looks like a fuckin' nightmare, even if in my humble opinion is really dice-dependent.

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On the play, I usually board nothing. They can play so many forms of GY-Hate it isn't worth boarding without knowing exactly what you're playing against. On the Draw I usually put in some Ancient Grudges and a dedicated Dread Return target.

DDD isn't an option, you'll be facing 5/5 tramplers by turn 3. Probably aggressive mulligans into fast hands is the correct option.

i guess the idea is you just hope that they whiff on leyline and then you are on the play. really difficult matchup. especially with endless one and chalice.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

On the play, I usually board nothing. They can play so many forms of GY-Hate it isn't worth boarding without knowing exactly what you're playing against. On the Draw I usually put in some Ancient Grudges and a dedicated Dread Return target.

DDD isn't an option, you'll be facing 5/5 tramplers by turn 3. Probably aggressive mulligans into fast hands is the correct option.

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I think it's a good idea to wedge in at least one extra reanimation target if we're on the play OR the draw. (N.B.: I still run two Dread Returns in the main.) We can lock them out if we hit it, and then we don't need to worry too much about what they do afterward. If we don't, Bridges are coming in hot against Scions, they can still damage-race us if we don't combo out on the first turn, and it's not particularly likely we'll get the chance to slow them down with Therapy (because Chalice).

I tried racing the Eldrazi without much boarding for a while, but I kept finding that we needed a god-hand to make it through the game but the Eldrazi player only needed a mediocre hand to lock us up if we didn't get there on T1. This puts the odds in their favor, even if we're better at mulligans than they are. That's why I like having more reanimans even on the play in this matchup. It's really important to get in ahead of Chalice or Thorn and to dredge as much as we can on T1, but oftentimes our recursive beaters aren't enough to race them.

I was pretty much shooting in the dark when I tried the DDD. It's actually better than you'd think if you've packed in extra reanimans, but you're right that it's useless if we haven't. It's worth pointing out that on the DDD-reanimation plan, the games get really close, so I'm open to revising my style if other people can report on how it's worked for them. And NEVER DDD on the play.

Do you run the Grudges to knock out their MUD cards? I'm still not enthusiastic about Grudge simply because I tend to see nonartifact graveyard hate from the Eldrazi player. If I've adjusted my plan the way I mentioned earlier, I don't find the prison cards to be that big of a problem. The doozies are Leyline, RiP, Scions, Drowners, and Displacers.

Parcher, thanks a lot for the feedback! I'm curious: in a list with 12 lands and quads of everything except 2 Dread Return, 1 G-Brand, 3 Street Wraith, and 3 Careful Study, what would you side out to put in the following?

1x Street Wraith
1x Dread Return
2x Reanimans (probs Ashen Rider and Blazing Archon or Elesh Norn)
2x Ray of Revelation

My thinking was something like -3 Careful Study, -1 Faithless Looting, -1 LED, -1 City of Brass. The extra Ichorid and Thug seem pretty helpful for reasons I've mentioned a few times. I think you're probably right about LED; it's the last card I would cut, and it's pretty agonizing to do so. We agree about Careful Study (I'm vacillating between running a fourth mainboard Study and a fourth mainboard Breakthrough in part because of this matchup), but what other cards would you cut?

[EDIT: Another thing LED lets us do on the draw is discard everything if we can't play 1-cmc cards—not ideal, but it's something—or it lets us Loot on the draw instead of DDDing.]

I would keep the LED and land, and lose the 4th Thug, and 3rd Dread. The odds of you being able to, or even needing to DR more than once are slim. Odds of you being able to DR profitably without hitting one of two are slim. And if you DR Griselbrand you automatically get to the 2nd Dread. The only way to punish losing a Thug by Eldrazi is Macabre. Which most dont run, and would be gambling hugely if they target dredgers with it. And I wasn't kidding about Serenity. For the same cost as Ray it removes Chalice, Thorn, and any mana rocks they might have as well. It's also a blowout vs some of the more fringe matchups like DnT, Enchantress, and MUD.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

And I wasn't kidding about Serenity. For the same cost as Ray it removes Chalice, Thorn, and any mana rocks they might have as well. It's also a blowout vs some of the more fringe matchups like DnT, Enchantress, and MUD.

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Serenity seems a fine choice and might gonna give it a try. I was wondering about Wispmares and Ingot Chewers but your idea it's interesting, Parcher.

My sb at the moment:

3 Lotus Petal
3 Nature's Claim
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 ...

How would you make room for Serenity? I'd play at least three copies.

Thanks in advance for your answer.

I know I'm the one who championed it, but you'd have to cut the Petal and Decay package. Right now, Surgical is the number one hate. RiP and Priest are tied for second, and Cage, and unfortunately Leyline are third. Decay is only good vs half those. I'm basically back on Unmask for that reason. It deals with Surgical and/or the counters the decks running Surgical have. It subs in the Petal slot fighting Combo. It deals with Macabre vs those Eldrazi decks, even though Chalice . And even can act as a discard outlet. Especially through Chalice, or vs Combo. Great with Bthrough there since you can T1 it vs Combo without LED, or T2 it vs Chalice decks. It also is fine on the play vs RiP and Priest. Prolly want some instant speed removal as well. Wear/Tear also dodges Chalice. Chain can deal with Leyline and Priest. Hysterically, it acts as a discard outlet vs Smasher, which you can then discard since trample is a big problem. If running Wraith over PIMP, I'd round out the S8 with a couple Fstorms and and extra land or two. Mainly for Shaman and/or Delver decks.