[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Jund Fit with Grove/Fires seems fine right now, as would just Jund Fires (w/ BBE).

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I have a local player that has been building Jund as a 2nd deck and he has been a little disappointed. I'm trying to come up with a deck I like that has a big, splashy plan alongside a good grind plan. Hybrid decks are how I like to sling magic. I'm currently trying to see if I can get a cohesive list together for Nic Fit w/PFire or some sort of grindy Turbo Depths/Lands/Jund mashup that plays a good fair plan but can still make a 20/20. I want bombs and I think Jund Fit might scratch what's been itching.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Great responses, thanks. I definitely want to put together some sort of Grove/Fires variant in Legacy. Right now I'm playing Punishing Maverick and it's *ok*, but doesn't really tickle my pickle. I've played a good amount of Nic Fit in the past (Junk Rhinos) but that was in the DRS era.

Is Burning Wish good enough without Scapeshift? I was thinking it allows for a powerful non-blue control variant that has game against combo decks.

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I believe the most powerful thing about combining with Scapeshift is that you get to use one Wish early for control - grabbing Therapy or removal essentially. Then your 2nd drawn Wish is ready to grab Scapeshift and win on the spot (win-con being 4 cmc means that you can more easily do this in a single turn). If you aren't going for Scapeshift in Jund then I would suggest having at least 1 wish target that either wins or massively tilts the game, probably at 5-6 mana. Not sure what that is...

Worm Harvest? Gets through countermagic and discard, makes use of fetches and you get to continue to power it out. Perhaps there's some Loam variant with Grove/PFire and this.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I have a local player that has been building Jund as a 2nd deck and he has been a little disappointed. I'm trying to come up with a deck I like that has a big, splashy plan alongside a good grind plan. Hybrid decks are how I like to sling magic. I'm currently trying to see if I can get a cohesive list together for Nic Fit w/PFire or some sort of grindy Turbo Depths/Lands/Jund mashup that plays a good fair plan but can still make a 20/20. I want bombs and I think Jund Fit might scratch what's been itching.

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I think there is big difference in playing NicFit with Scapeshift and NicFit without Scapeshift.
Because I do not have a playset of Badlands (still working on it) I did not have many possibilities to playtest it.
I Played RGB NicFit and i can say that this combination of cards was amazing to me:

4x Collective burtality
4x Punishing Fire
4x Faithless looting
4x Cabal therapy

I did not play Wish in this build as i was working on the amount of Looting in the deck. I still dont have a final number. I can say one think this deck ramps very very fast. I played a 7 drop because of that. I still dont have a final number.
Because you filter your deck quickly and you can abuse all the cards from the Graveyard it give a different approach to the game than a Scapeshift deck, where you want to reach seven land and have a combination of those 2 cards:
Burning wish, thought seize and Scapeshift

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Originally Posted by square_two

I believe the most powerful thing about combining with Scapeshift is that you get to use one Wish early for control - grabbing Therapy or removal essentially. Then your 2nd drawn Wish is ready to grab Scapeshift and win on the spot (win-con being 4 cmc means that you can more easily do this in a single turn). If you aren't going for Scapeshift in Jund then I would suggest having at least 1 wish target that either wins or massively tilts the game, probably at 5-6 mana. Not sure what that is...

Worm Harvest? Gets through countermagic and discard, makes use of fetches and you get to continue to power it out. Perhaps there's some Loam variant with Grove/PFire and this.

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Natural Order comes to mind as an alternative to Scapeshift. I could play 3 in the main and have 2-3x BW to get the 4th. Dryad arbor and a suite of value creatures like Vets, Scooze, Witness, etc would provide plenty of fodder for some big targets.

These are the ones I would consider:

Elderscale Wurm
Worldspine Wurm
Progenitus

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Natural Order comes to mind as an alternative to Scapeshift. I could play 3 in the main and have 2-3x BW to get the 4th. Dryad arbor and a suite of value creatures like Vets, Scooze, Witness, etc would provide plenty of fodder for some big targets.

These are the ones I would consider:

Elderscale Wurm
Worldspine Wurm
Progenitus

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The problem is those creature dont have written "i win" on them. Without haste i do not think it is good to play them. I will prefer a B-Wish to be played as a tool box device if you not play an instant win condition like scapeshift.

Found an old box of cards in my parents attic this weekend, was going through them (btw, what the absolute fuck is going on with Ice Age Snow lands being like $2-$3? Thanks for the $$ I guess) and found an old card that I, and probably everyone else had forgotten about:

Kjeldoran Dead

Has anyone tried this as a sac outlet for Explorer yet? Seems like it's worth investigating. But maybe it's bad, I dunno, this isn't really my deck, but I saw that and thought "hey, I should mention this". So, here ya go, mentioned.

https://twitter.com/Bahra01/status/1137858770535669761

Bahra did make it to the Top 4 of the Legacy Challenge today. Apparently, Yawgmoth is really good.

I can't make out the list, all I can see is it's Junk colored with 1 Meren/3 Yawgmoth and the usual suspects. Aside from the obvious interaction with Vet I didn't see a reason to play Yawgmoth in Nic Fit. There's definitely something I'm missing, unless Yawgmoth is just a better Phyrexian Plaguelord?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I can't make out the list, all I can see is it's Junk colored with 1 Meren/3 Yawgmoth and the usual suspects. Aside from the obvious interaction with Vet I didn't see a reason to play Yawgmoth in Nic Fit. There's definitely something I'm missing, unless Yawgmoth is just a better Phyrexian Plaguelord?

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I think you missed "draw a card"

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Originally Posted by [reptiLe]

I think you missed "draw a card"

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So he is a 4mana not GSZable 2/4 you have to sac your own crit to draw a card. How is he better then Phyrexian Arena? I Also do not see a potential.
Looking at the deck I see a combo with Lingering souls, probably pontiffs and possibly useless SFM.
Yawgmoth will definitely be better if you could sac him for a better effect like Plaguis is.

I know just by looking at the deck that this will not work in my metagame.

He probably requires a certain meta, but he seems very powerful against both control and midrange

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Originally Posted by [reptiLe]

I think you missed "draw a card"

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I assumed people would understand the word 'better'. Sorry for not explaining clearly.

I just don't know if a better Plaguelord (that distributes -1/-1 counters while drawing a card) is actually good enough. I don't see the proliferate ability becoming relevant too often, it's just incredibly slow. It does synergize with Meren and Scavenging Ooze, but that is just digging way too deep to be reliable. Protection from humans can be good against Death and Taxes I suppose, and the fringe humans deck in legacy.

EDIT: Isn't Liliana, the Last Hope just a better use of your mana for pinging small creatures?

I have the suspicion that Yawgmoth and that random 1of Therapist were only included with the intention to hype and advertise the new cards...as you have mentioned there isn't much point in playing him here...

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

He probably requires a certain meta, but he seems very powerful against both control and midrange

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I agree, and that meta is called 'modern'. I don't see this guy as legacy playable. He's a 4-mana play that neither wins the game nor actually pushes your own strategy forward. Other 4-mana creatures typically played by Nic Fit: Siege Rhino, Meren of Clan Nel Toth, Academy Rector, Arena Rector. Again, I see synergies but I don't think playing 2 4-drops that synergize together (Meren + Yawgmoth) as fast enough, and by the time you have mana for Yawgmoth you've likely already shot off a Veteran Explorer and have enough mana already. If I want to draw extra cards I think Tireless Tracker is about a million times better. If I want repeatable removal I think Punishing Fire/Grove is a million times better, or Pernicious Deed + Eternal Witness/Niss VF. If Yawgmoth were tutorable with GSZ I think it would potentially be good, otherwise it appears to be just fun-factor testing of new cards.

I think there's some more to this list than you give it credit for. In particular, Lingering Souls becomes an insane draw engine and sweeper with Yawgmoth.

Fair, I think that could be very good. I don't see how it's better than Deed/Deluge at sweeping, but the card draw is appealing. I'm not sold, but I am willing to admit I'm wrong if it proves out over the next few months. Having another avenue for Nic Fit to progress would be very exciting indeed.

Bahra mentioned that Cavern naming Human was huge throughout the challenge. 2x Cavern to enable some powerful tools might should be something to explore. Perhaps more Trackers could be fit in. I remember Cavern very fondly when I was playing Academy Rector.

I think yawgmoth is mostly a control card, but your second Veteran Explorer is put in overdrive with yawgmoth:
G: Pay 1 life, put two lands onto the battlefield untapped, draw a card, shoot a -1/-1 counter on something

That's a lot of value. In particular, tokens, undying, Bloodghast-like creatures work well with Yawgmoth

Being able to proliferate Nel Toth's experience points by pitching a creature which you will get back with Nel Toth seems reasonable, I think it would be better if there were more planeswalkers or other cards to proliferate into.

I think the protection from humans is surprisingly relevant, especially against death & taxes or a Snapcaster here and there.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

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I think the protection from humans is surprisingly relevant, especially against death & taxes or a Snapcaster here and there.

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D&T has maindeck access to Karakas and snap dies to fetch ->DA.

We already have the edge against D&T with P-Deed also naming their Blades and P-Revoker with CT.

If Zombie Fish will be a Human this will be better but now it is only good against some Maverick or 4C Loam.

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Originally Posted by Matsu

D&T has maindeck access to Karakas and snap dies to fetch ->DA.

We already have the edge against D&T with P-Deed also naming their Blades and P-Revoker with CT.

If Zombie Fish will be a Human this will be better but now it is only good against some Maverick or 4C Loam.

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Agreed. I don't necessarily think Yawgmoth is a good card, but I see the utility. Apparently it played reasonably well. The biggest attraction for me would be Lingering Souls or other token creatures.

Hangarback Walker looks like it can benefit from both the proliferate and the sack ability.