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No problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serguei
Yeah it's much easier because Dack Fayden is draw first then discard, so library order choices aren't as complicated. You can always put the same 2 cards back and keep the 3rd in hand (either FoN or StP).
I first thought it would be WD like you said, but then found the line where you win OTD by protecting Griffin with StP because Land Equilibrium still lets you play an untapped Plains as a 5th land if you sac a tapped land.
Regarding the banlist, do you think we could slim it down?
Particularly tolarian academy, ancestral recall, oath of druids or tinker do not seem to belong (it should be possible to design decks that can use them, but I don't think it would be pervasive).
It would make it easier to notice which cards are banned or not (e.g. I didn't notice that duress was not on).
I bolded the cards I thought were worth discussing:
Ancestral Recall
Balance
Black Lotus
Blackmail
Blazing Shoal
Burning Inquiry
Cabal Therapy
Chain of Smog
Chancellor of the Annex
Channel
Chaos Orb
Dark Deal
Dark Depths
Delirium Skeins
Earthcraft
Falling Star
Fastbond
Field of Ruin
Flash
Force of Will
Gerrard's Verdict
Ghost Quarter
Hymn to Tourach
Inquisition of Kozilek
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Laboratory Maniac
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Singularity
Lupine Prototype
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Mental Misstep
Mind Rake
Mind Swords
Mind Twist
Mishra’s Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Oath of Druids
Oko, Thief of Crowns
Shahrazad
Shelldock Isle
Show and Tell
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Thassa's Oracle
The Rack
Thoughtseize
Time Vault
Time Walk
Timetwister
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Wasteland
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Will
I support the unbanning of Fall, Trall and Ya'll
Worth discussing? I'd curious to know how to resolve it? It seems to be as broken as Chaos Orb.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Were you joking?
Some of these cards are there because they are "staples" on the ban list. We wouldn't play them anyway.
Field of Ruin was banned because it dominated season 1.
Falling Star is banned because we can't really play it. By definition, its effect isn't random, but we can't throw it, so we can't really use it. This banning makes sense to me.
Mana Drain I would have liked to play last round, but I couldn't...
So my questions for trimming down the ban list would be:
- Do we want to ban staples, like Ancestral recall?
And for individual cards:
- Can we make a combo deck with Earthcraft?
- Can we make a combo deck with Oath of Druids?
...
My point would be that why not remove from the banlist unplayable cards that we wouldn't play?Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I thought that the less cards on the list, the more readable it is, the easiest it is to check the banlist before submitting a deck.
We can make combos with Earthcraft and Oath, but they are likely to be bad enough to not really be threatening, while on the combo side, the format is maybe more defined by T1 LED/Rites/Iona, T1 barbed schoker, T1 magus of the moon, T1 From Under the Floorboards, etc...
A T2 combo deck needs to be resilient or disruptive.
I can also imagine aggro decks with sharazaad, but I think they would really lose to most decks.
On mana drain, yes, it could have make it more interesting that counterspell, without threatening to warp the format. So why not unbanning it?
Not joking, I just think the card is bad enough it doesn't need to appear on the banlist. I would resolve it by being unable to make a virtual object physically touch another one, or flip. So basically "no effect" card.Quote:
Originally Posted by jhhdk
Field of Ruin is effectively Wasteland in this format. (Lupine Prototype took the fall first.) Trust me, you do not want it around. Falling Star is a dexterity card, so it adds nothing even if legal.
Oath of Druids at best is probably a weaker version of t1 Iona. The potentially risky option is Tolarian Academy, but given that you need cheap artifacts to make it give mana, and the good mana rocks are still banned, it should be fine.
Shahrazad's issue is that the subgame actually follows standard Magic rules, so it's really a glorified upgraded Flame Rift in white.
OK for field or ruins, but is there any value of having any of the other cards on the banlist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
There are a few thousands of cards that do not add anything to the game. A glorified flame rift shouldn't be big trouble.
Falling Star should probably stay with Field of Ruin, everything else should be fine.
I think as a rule any cards not legal in Vintage should be automatically banned. Even if they would not break 4CB, these cards are essentially not real Magic cards, amusing pieces of cardboard not part of the game as we know it:Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
- dexterity cards
- ante cards
- subgame cards
- "Un" sets
- Consipracies
- Schemes, Planes, Contraptions, and other weird gigantic non-cards
Cards like Falling Star and Shahrazad shouldn't need to occupy space on the banlist, impeding readability. They should be on a separate static "lol these are not real Magic: The Gathering cards" list with ante cards and the other cards banned in every sanctioned format. That's how the official B/R lists treat them.
The banlist for each 4CB season should be separate from that, to keep it concise.
As for unbans, I agree that Earthcraft, Tinker, Oath of Druids and Yawgmoth's Will should be unbanned because they are too clunky to combo compared to other combos that are legal. You could use LED or Bazaar to put Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Blightsteel Colossus back in library, but then you only have one slot for mana to cast the enabler.
Saprazzan Cove, Tinker, Blightsteel Colossus, Key to the City is a turn 7 fatty. OK whatever.
Rushwood Grove, Oath of Druids, Bazaar of Baghdad, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is a turn 4 Oath, but you lack a way to give opponent a creature to turn on Oath, so you're stuck waiting for the opponent to cast a creature or just hardcasting Emrakul on turn 17. Hickory Woodlot enables turn 2 Oath but is illegal because you can't actually beat a goldfish.
Hickory Woodlot, Forest, Earthcraft, Squirrel Nest is infinite tapped tokens on turn 3 with no protection, not much crazier than the Midnight Guard combo that was never good enough even after 24 seasons of common bannathon.
There is no rule stating you have to beat a goldfish in a standard round, so turn 2 Oath is perfectly legal. (This is also relevant because of Karn Liberated.)
Well even if it's legal, it's incapable of ever scoring more than 2 points (DD) and could score less, so it seems safe. The version that doesn't draw is a turn 4 combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
There's a land that gives the opponent 1/1s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
I have played Oath in competitive play waaaay back in the day. Oath was absurd and should never have been printed.
But anyway.
If you guys feel like this banned list is too long, my brain goes "what the heck did you think about last season then?" But I'll trim it down a bit.
I'm keeping Field of Ruin because it dominated and we banned it because it was annoying. I'm also keeping Mana Drain at least for the Deviant seasons, just in case.
But I'll unban:
Ancestral Recall
Earthcraft
Falling Star
Oath of Druids
Shahrazad
Timetwister
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Yawgmoth's Will
And I'll use FTWs suggestion for banning cards that require physical dexterity. I'll update the banned list in a minute.
Can we ban Barbed shocker for next round?
It's kinda oppressive.
Submissions for the round have already opened, but we could ban it for the round after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
Oath is absurd, yes. The question is whether you can abuse it in 4CB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
You need: 1G mana, a way to give opponent a creature, Oath, a way to put a card to your library, a fatty
Usually that ends up being 5 cards, unless you can find sufficient overlaps between roles.
Forbidden Orchard gives opponent a creature but doesn't produce 1G, so now you need a 5th card to produce the 2nd mana.
Chancellor of the Tangle, Forbidden Orchard, Oath of Druids, Brainstorm is a turn 1 Oath with turn 2 Chancellor, but this is worse than the slower Emrakul deck without Orchard and about as fragile as Goblin Lackey tricks.
In regular 4CB I think this is a non-issue. However in Deviant rounds there are enough options to get that 5th effect that maybe it is still too good. I could go either way on Oath. The problem with Oath-Emrakul is that Emrakul makes the combo resilient to disruption and removal, but it's still arguably slower than a lot of legal turn 1 stuff.
I have no issue with the size of the list. But it seems like some other players do and miss banned cards, so I take dte's point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Personally I think the size of the list is irrelevant because it's in alphabetical order, and the size of our decks is only 4 cards.
This is how I check my submissions.
List my 4 card deck in alphabetical order.
Look down the list for the letter corresponding to card #1.
Find it? Nope?
Keep scrolling down towards the letter for card #2.
Find it? Nope?
Keep scrolling down to the letter for card #3.
Find it? Nope?
Keep scrolling down to the letter for card #4.
Find it? Nope?
Ok my deck is legal.
You only have to verify 4 cards in an alphabetically-ordered list, which means only one scroll through the list and you can skim over most cards that start with different letters.
That would work whether the list is 10 cards or 500 cards without much difference in effort or accuracy.
But if other players are finding it difficult, especially in bannathons, then I think we should minimize the list to keep the game fun and accessible.
Yeah, that's why I went along with it anyway. Unbanning these cards shouldn't hurt the game, and if it does, I'll just add the troublesome card again.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
For me it's more the issue of we're discussing several things between rounds right now, which makes everything more difficult to follow for me.
Right now, I would like to focus on who has already redone their calcs for last round, as we're about to post decks for next round and I don't have standings for last round yet.
I also have a strong feeling some of us don't have the time to keep up with the thread right now and are missing chances to give their thoughts on new rules or bannings.
Though maybe it's just me not having brain space for all this because of COVID generally screwing with our lives.
I'm finally making time to do a proper analysis of my results, and it's during the week that I sent in an illegal deck. Oops. Should be easy to calculate.
maxx!: Mistcutter Hydra, Misthollow Griffin, Food Chain,Force of WillPlains
1. Asthereal (TO): Counterspell, Counterspell, Vraska the Unseen, Vraska, Relic Seeker
Counterspells get Food Chain and Griffin. If I make a small Hydra, little Vraska kills it before I can race. If I try to OHKO, the bigger Vraska races me easily. 0-6
2. jhhdk: Exploration, Exploration, Xantid Swarm, Scute Swarm
Yeah there's no way I can beat this. Hydra doesn't even trample, so he gets chumped forever. Should've played Maga. 0-6
3. Wrath of Pie: Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy, Transgress the Mind, Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
Transgress is fast enough to get my Food Chain. Griffin eats a Trophy, and Vitu-Ghazi beats my Hydra. 0-6
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Exploration, Steppe Lynx, Cloudstone Curio, Exploration
OTD the Lynx knocks me down to 2 before I go off. Chumping doesn't help GS. OTP I'm a turn faster. 6-0
5. dte: dark ritual, tel-jilad stylus, mesmeric fiend, reality acid
Fiend can take Hydra, then Acid gets the Griffin. 0-6
6. Reeplcheep: Exploration, Azusa, lost but seeking, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
OTP Azusa chumps my turn 4 Hydra, then Kozilek chumps next turn (lol), then I die to Valakut before I can attack again. OTD I just die to Valakut before I go off. 0-6
7. H: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, From Under the Floorboards
You will always have Zombies to chump and there's no way I can race. 0-6
8. FTW: Veil of Summer, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Archon of Valor's Reach
Archon names creature and I can't ever do anything. 0-6
9. alphastryk:Force of WillIsland I guess, Dack Fayden, Beacon of Destruction, Land Equilibrium
Dack can always make me discard 2 cards before my 4th turn. Food Chain by itself does nothing, so making a 3/3 is the best I can do. Beacon kills my threat and then slowly kills me. 0-6
10. maxx!: Mistcutter Hydra, Misthollow Griffin, Food Chain,Force of WillPlains
This is me :|
11. silkster: Shocker, Path to Exile, Chancellor of the Tangle, Leyline of the Void
Don't reveal Leyline and you can dump my whole hand before I can cast anything. 0-6
12. Tylert: Liliana of the veil, Leyline of sanctity, Assassin's trophy, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
OTP Trophy hits my second land, then Liliana comes down and makes me discard. I play a third land, but if I play Food Chain now then Liliana discards my last card. If I pass and discard Food Chain to Liliana, I'm left with 1 threat, and LotV edicts it. Can't win. 0-6
13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin
FoN can hit Food Chain, but I don't think that actually matters. All Serguei has to do is always leave W open to plow my Hydra, and cast Griffin at some point to stare/trade with my Griffin. I can't break through that, and Ulamog gets me eventually. 0-6
6 points. Not good!
And to think I almost sent in a normal LED/Unburial deck. Calling an audible hours before the deadline has never worked for me, yet I keep doing it. Here's to next season, haha.
Hey, that's my M.O.! I almost send in straight T1 Barbed Shocker with Leyline of the Void. And I totally forgot which day is which and have no idea what to submit now.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxx!
I've read over some of the recent stuff, but not all of it. I like the shorter banlist for readability. It's always easy to check your deck, but that's not the only way I use the banlist. I also like to hold the entire banlist in my mind and try to think of broken stuff in general. I know it's minor, but it's such low cost. The pauper/peasant banlist was huge and unwieldy, but it was large for a specific reason and it was worth it. Unbanning Tinker etc. is all upside to me.
I'm a little sad that no one wanted to play double Ideas Unbound with LED and Emrakul last round.
I really did think the Berserker round was one of the better ones and I think it would made a great bannathon season, either as is or just a bannathon season of "only creatures and lands".
Looks like we have the results in now, so here's standings for round 4:
1. Wrath of Pie: 60 - 5
2. H: 57 - 4,8
3. jhhdk: 54 - 4,5
3. Reeplcheep: 54 - 4,5
5. dte: 51 - 4,35
6. FTW: 39 - 3,3
7. silkster: 34 - 2,8
7. Serguei: 34 - 2,8
9. Tylert: 30 - 2,5
10. Asthereal (TO): 28 - 2,3
11. alphastryk: 9 - 0,8
11. GoblinSmashmaster: 9 - 0,8
13. maxx!: 6 - 0,5
Which would lead to these standings for the season so far:
1. dte: 18,5
2. FTW: 15,9
3. Serguei: 14,6
4. Tylert: 13,9
5. Reeplcheep: 12,2
6. Wrath of Pie: 10,8
7. silkster: 10
8. maxx!: 9,7
9. Asthereal (TO): 9,4
10. H: 9,2
11. jhhdk: 8,7
12. GoblinSmashmaster: 7,7
13. alphastryk: 6,6
So dte proudly leads the pack, with FTW in pursuit. Wrath makes a nice jump in the ranks with an excellent result for round 4.
EDIT: Adjusted for the Serguei - alphastryk match.
The deadline for round 5 has passed, and I'm missing alphastryk and FTW. Last round was rather messy so I'll give you some extra time to send in decks.