you said it. fairly successful. at your local game store. werent you the guy who said miracles was an unfair deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
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you said it. fairly successful. at your local game store. werent you the guy who said miracles was an unfair deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
I went 10-5 at SCG Worcester for 32nd place with this list.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=85191
My matchups were:
UWR Stoneblade 2-0
Maverick 2-0
UW Vial w/Standstill 2-1
Burn 2-1
Shardless BUG 2-0
Goblins 2-1
BUG Delver 1-2
Lands 0-2
MUD 1-2
Merfolk 2-1
Grixis Control 1-2
Omnitell 0-2
BG Depths 2-0
Elves 2-1
Painter 2-0
Overall, I think there were at least 2 matches that I could have won if I had played better, especially the match against BUG Delver in round 7. Going forward, I would add some amount of Monastery Mentors in the board, as well as try to fit the 4th FOW in the main somewhere.
What~!? I'm confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by toletole
The deck is closer toward SFM blade list than Miracles. Post your question on the Stoneblode thread instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by fluuu
Worst card
I'm sure Ein would say that Plains is the worst card in Miracles and he would run 20 lands if he could.
The real focus is that cards are competing for slots. As a result, they create cascading effect on other slots, on land count as well.
Clique and Snapcaster are competing for the same slots. Based on what you value more, your land count and ponder count will be adjusted accordingly.
Swords, Red Blast, and Councils are also competing for the same slots.
Now for the most important and most obvious,
JtMS, Ponder, Snapcaster, and dTT arre all competing for the same slots.
Conclusion, just find a combination that would work for you, 0 for certain card is acceptable.
I started playing Mentor before Joe put it in his deck. I started playing an increased number of Snapcasters before Philipp. Brad and Joe have both cut down to one Entreat. There was a time when people were playing three.Quote:
Originally Posted by decan
Things change, and I believe I'm moving in the right direction.
I also think 1 Entreat is fine, due to how much it is clunky without Brainstorm. 0 never.
I see Mentor as a great wall, but hardly as a WC. Just win more may be.
Karakas + Clique, instead is always always stellar
People underestimate just how quickly a Mentor can take over the game. It allows you to kill combo decks so much faster than Entreat.
And I said it was going to be fantastic (in this thread) in Miracles before anyone started playing it [emoji51].Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Hooray for me!
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
Why? The deck still has counterbalance and sensei. It has the miracle coreQuote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Because this is at core a control deck. Quad Mentor and Daze is not a control core. I was brewing a deck with Countertop and then 6 Pyromancer/Mentor, that played Daze, Gitaxian Probe, and all that good stuff. It's definitely not the same deck, but does seem viable.
it doesn't.. it would just suffer everything
Eng Explosives
Terminus
Pyroclasm
Staticaster
Toxic Deluge
Golgari Charm
Massacre
Mentor is very good against deck that require chump blocker imho.
It covers the same spot that Elspeth does but in a better way. it's faster and doges Pierces.
I'll have to agree here. The best thing mentor does is win the mirror imho, and there are other ways to do that. against everything else, I think there are better cards - namely Stoneforge Mystic - which do a lot more on the matchups they matter. But maybe I'll have to see it for myself first bevor I'll dismiss Mentor completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
On the matter of DTT, I don't actually think that it's that good. I've been playing 2 copies main and it just doesn't seem placed so well in this deck. Most people are cutting the 3rd Jace for the second copy, but almost everytime you're playing DTT, you're looking for high impact cards. And DTT can't provide them everytime, so you have to take a cantrip to go on. Honestly the best thing DTT does is clear the top 3 cards for another SDT activation. Most of the time I wished it was a Jace, so I've gone back to 3 Jace, 1 DTT and am quite happy.
For reverence, I'm currently testing this list. I'm not completely happy right now - and it certainly does need more testing / a bit of tuning - but at the same time it works pretty well, getting me a 3rd place at a GPT and 3-1 in 3 out of 6 dailies (the other being me playing.. badle ;) ):
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
[21 Lands]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
[03 Planeswalkers]
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
[04 Artifacts]
3 Counterbalance
[03 Enchantments]
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
[05 Creatures]
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
[15 Instants]
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
[09 Sorceries]
[60 cards maindeck]
Sideboard:
1 Blood Moon
1 Batterskull
1 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rest in Peace
2 Stoneforge Mystic
[15 cards sideboard]
[75 cards total]
Cavern of Soul is really required?
I mean you don't want to play a creature here unless you can protect it here (via Karakas or CounterTop) so.. you're not playing Mentor or SFM unless you set CT and you don't play Clique if you don't have Karakas (sure, that'only the theory).
do you name Humans I suppose? overall for Priests in SB also no Meddling Mage in the sb?
How do you deal with Sultai?
I don't think Cavern is required, but it has really been a house everytime I played it. Naming Wizard while playing G1 is correct as it makes all your creatures uncounterable, after sideboarding it's depending on which creature you have in your hand or want to resolve.
Also, protecting creatures isn't absolutely necessary because against the decks you want your utility creatures not being countered (like Miracles, Omnitell, Combo) you don't have to be afraid of removal.
BUG.. yeah, I'm not 100% sure what to do against them right now as the matchup feels harder than it is. Stoneforger does help a lot, Blood Moon outright wins, but there's the problem of getting to a point where you can safely deploy all the key cards, which is a bit hard. Actually, this is the matchup I feel most uncomfortable with.
Edit: I don't think you need MM in the SB, as it stands, the SB is too tight. There's lots of cards I want to pack in there, but don't find the room between main / SB.
I also played miracles, went 5-1 0-3 (losing 3 matches to competent people, but also felt close).
Monastery Mentor is absurdly good as a sideboard card.
I then lost playing for t8 of the modern premier IQ to literal hooting mandrills. /wrist
Congrats on your finish. Would the 2nd Counterspell be worth cutting in your mind for the 4th FOW? Also, how were the Meddling Mages in your SB? Do you remember which matches you brought them in for and what you named or were hoping to name?Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinsplayer
Thanks in advance for insights.
I tested a mentor back during SCG Houston (ended up placing 19th at that event) when no one was prepared and it was insane in certain matchups. Now its a little more commonplace and more people are prepared but it can still run away with a game if they don't have removal in time for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvisyu
at the very least, it makes it much more difficult for people to sideboard versus you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ticalstal
Do you only bring Mentor in for the mirror and combo?
I'm tempted to just run Sulfur Elemental like Joe. Mentor seems like the kind of card you'd actually want to cut if you had enough slots against combo, and I'm not sure "The Cheese" is so strong that it's better than the elemental with flash.
That makes a lot of sense.
I was really into the Mentor idea (and I'll still try him, of course)... but if it's true that he's coming in only for the mirror and combo, the Elemental has wider applicability (and looks pretty good head-to-head vs. a Mentor).
Is Esper Miracles still a thing? I kinda want to play Miracles IRL (I play it from time to time in Cocka) but I only have Tundras and U. Seas, only one Volcanic. I do have a Moat tho.
I've heard that there's like 4 variations of Miracles, anyone can give a brief outlook on each one?
Or should I just build Deathblade
There have now been several mentions in the past few days by people bringing in Mentors against combo decks because it gives you a faster clock. I do not understand this. Speeding up your clock while still being slower than the opposition doesn't seem like it would help.
The race isn't to kill them before they kill you, it's a race to kill them before they Decay your Balance.
I play Mentor against everyone. It beats other Mentors and Mancers, stalls Goyfs and Tasigurs, asks 'Terminus or die', and kills really quickly without having to have a load of lands in play.
But tapping out against combo on turn three seems rather dangerous.
I think bringing in mentor in a combo match is just wrong. you tap 3 mana on your turn and cant leave up counterspell or mana for spinning top multiple times for example. Remember: 3 mana is a lot since most of the time you board out lands against combo. The only combo deck i could imagine bringing him in is UR omnitell to fight pyromancers. In combo matches EOT snapcaster or clique is much safer and wins you the game as well.
From my experience Mentor is a late game card which you use after u terminused the board away twice. In the earlier turns it dies to bolt, stp, decay without any use. correct me if im wrong, but most of the time you need 3 spells to make Mentor survive a bolt considering that you board out forces. Even if you get one or two tokens, those are used as blockers and wont win you the game.
His biggest strength is that he cant be pierced, flusterstormed or reb'd and therefore is great in the mirror. but generally most of the time an eot entreat wins you the game more quickly and more safely.
Esper Miracles was not a thing, most likely never will.Quote:
Originally Posted by owerbart
No one can make you play/build anything. If you're not sure between death blade and miracles, test these 2 decks on Cocka more. Any control decks including Miracles require patience and the learning curve takes time. Everyone has preference in play style and you probably have an inclination already.
I don't know which 4 you're referring to, I'll just list the obvious four versions:
Reid Duke's MD creature-less: Tries to abuse Dig and Jace to no end.
GP Kyoto winner YUTA TAKAHASHI's legend-ponder: Best of both Ponder and Legend build, skewed Mana base to include Wasteland against heavy Omni-tell meta. Modification required for generic meta.
Lossett's Legend: Heavy favor in the mirror and combo MU.
SCHONEGGER (ein)'s Ponder: Heavy favor against all fair decks, not so much against combo game 1.
Izzet Staticaster and Sulfur Elemental to make tokens cry
Really, I do not see how combo is a problem.
They run Decay for Cb? We drop Canonist and Meddling Mage on Infernal Tutor/Abrupt Decay/Show and Tell
That's what I'm saying. The wizards all interact while providing a clock; Mentor just does damage. I was trying to figure out earlier where else people were even running them. Nobody seems to be talking about where the card shines except the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
I know it's not the same of Karakas, but we would save our Meddling Mage and Snapcaster Mage with Riptide Laboratory.
we chump block while reanimating all our cantrips.in the graveyard
Poron, doesn't the fact that it only produces colourless mana cause a lot of problems with Entreat/Judgment/Jace? It's the same issue with Academy Ruins.
There's also the old Helm of Obedience/RIP builds, but I haven't seen anyone playing those in a long time. A few people are testing Thopter/Sword as a kill condition that doesn't get disrupted in the ways that most Miracle kills do, but that's still a relatively new experiment.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
yes, you're right.
May be for those who are playing Cavern of Soul, it might be tested in that spot..
Karakas best card of the deck. It's just incredible how many cheats you can do with it and Cavern of Souls (which was a great call, thank you)..
Combo decks with AD are already good MUs.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Why do you care about Goyfs and Tasigurs? Just turn them into farmers or tuck them.
If we always had access to the exact cards we need, we'd be playing Belcher. We want as many of our cards to be good before we're winning as possible. Entreat is bad until it kills them, and even when it's killing them, is vulnerable to more things going wrong than a 3-mana Creature. Mentor is good well before we kill them, and can be cast way earlier. It also doesn't require Brainstorms and Tops to be good, they just make it better.
So you are trying to tell me that 4 swords+3 snapcaster+4 terminus+(2-3 Jace) isnt enough too survive long enough until you entreat the angels for the win? :laugh: :laugh:
why dont you actually provide us with you latest "fairly successful" list? That way i can understand why its so overpowered or is it super secret tech?
Actually, that's technically not true. Mentor's advantage is gradual over 2 or more turns; a non-lethal Entreat for 2 Angels is still a tremendous pressure. This is especially true in the SB games when time becomes an issue. Sure you can sit there and make more monk tokens, as long as your opponent can block non-flying creatures and soak up rest of the damages, you are even more likely to reach a draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Mentor really is just the next logical step once you have committed to Cavern, I give you that.
Both Angel and Mentor will die to Abrupt Decay, the vulnerability isn't all that different, don't see that as an argument.
On a separate note, the recent trend really is about Cavern. Once you are running it, you open yourself to lots of pros and cons. Lossett has already addressed all the pros: guaranteed hand disruption via clique, edge in the mirror. Cavern + Karakas + Legendary Wizards = combo.
Here's my issue with that: Again, you're dancing, or whatever you want to call it, with the board state. This goes against the Ponder-cantrips philosophy. Another problem is that you are now even Weaker against RUG Delver and Vial-tribal-Wasteland decks like Goblin and DnT. These decks don't care much about the uncounterability, and you might just need that Cavern to be the White or Blue source you used to run (Tundra) for that precious removal or Brainstorm stuck in your hand.
If you are committed to that Cavern + Karakas route, you're pretty much sold on Legend Miracles. That means you have to operate even faster, harder to avoid draws.
I disagree. Decay destroys ONE mentor but NOT ALL angels. In the BG/x MUs you usually entreat for 4+. you would have to chain a bunch of instants in order to get something good enough out of mentor.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I'd argue, if you have time to Entreat for 6 mana, you're already pretty set in the BGx matchup. Two monk tokens is usually pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by decan
You could just play Cunning Wish and go grab Wear//Tear then flash it back with Snapcaster, and on that note, I have no idea why people are not running 4 SCM, especially with the Cavern plan some decks are gravitating towards. Since my SB has some flexibility I also have Riptide Lab. (SB) in there to grind people out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
I don't like DTT and cards that mess with the top of my library trying for 'value'. Ponder's are cheaper for library manipulation and can be cast T1 to go find your countertop / lands. I don't think Miracles wants to be playing DTT at all, but YMMV.
On Council's...I do think it's necessary even if you run Cunning Wish as there are some problem permanents that we have a hard time answering if they resolve G1. Trust, me, it's real worth it to get WW if the alternative is losing to SoFaI, Sylvan Library, Counterbalance (depending on the state of the game, 3 is generally 'safe' to get resolved), etc.
Plus, CJ also serves another important, but less flashy role. We lack in 3 CMC cards, which in some MU's, are our most important spot (e.g. Omni-Tell/Lands/etc.).
What I'd like to do is try and find room for a Spell Snare in the main. Lists are so tight...
Entreat vs Bug is almost the worst.
It gets Spell Pierced, Dazed, Flusterstormed and its tokens can be Pernicious Deeded or Maelstrom Pulsed.
Keranos and Mentor are stellar there.. if you expect many BUG, Karakas is your best card to save your Cliques
there are so many singleton silver bullets in this deck (Karakas, Cavern, Venser, Keranos, Canonist, Sulfur Elemental, Staticaster) that DTT is always good to see here
I'm really thinking about the second. mm
Don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron