Did Maverick just become great again? I remember that summer before Miracles.
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Did Maverick just become great again? I remember that summer before Miracles.
Maverick still has the Great Wall of DRS and all of his BUG friends to deal with. Against a DRS knights will always be small as we don't really have a way to remove him after swords.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
I think if we can jump that hurdle, we have a chance.
On a random note: could a Smugglers copter/Renegade Rallier engine work? It would give you super recurring Pridemage/wastelands/fetchlands/Horizon canopies and destroyed copters could be brought back as well.
Copter loves exalted, and Provides a decent clock and a draw engine....also, Scryb Ranger could be used for enabling the copter and the Rallier!
It feels like if the meta does go towards DRS durdle fest then punishing fire is a viable option, although of course DRS exiles punishing fire, but it does mean 7-8 maindeck removal spells.
I see Maverick continuing to have a hard time. Lots of shit coming out the woodwork with Miracles' anticipated decline.
I still foresee UWx control being a thing (everyone acting likes it's a dead archetype already). I think the meta shifts to become faster -- burn, RUG delver maybe coming back, other delver decks still popular, reanimator and sneak still being strong, elves, lands, etc.
IMO punishing fire is too slow. And DRS decks more or less invalidate said card (either by eating it or playing cards that mitigate pfires engine). If there's an immediate change to Maverick, it's that we should probably run 2 or more Pridemage. I see SFM rising in the meta, moon effects, artifacts like chalice all rising. I'd also like to pursue ghost quarter, which I believe increases in value. Nearly every deck is multicolor. These look like strip mines right now lol.
Any thought of moving back to straight GW now that decay for CB isn't needed? Or is Deathrite Decay too good to not play? GW allows better mana, and less losses to moons. Also Maverick was traditionally very good against the Stoneblade decks that are expected to pop up again. The only real issue with GW is you definitely need to find answers to true name, but I think 2-3 Blessed Alliance (also good against Delver and Eldrazi expected to pop up) in the board is good, and Thalia, Heretic Cathar is probably going to also be very good against the Delver/BUG decks as well as Eldrazi and it's insane against Elves.
My future going forward list right now in the blind maybe would look something like this:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice (I actually could see 2 of these maybe if True Name is expected heavily)
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
SB:
3 Blessed Alliance
2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace (this may be wrong, but it's really powerful against Lands)
For the BUG control/midrange, Czech Pile control type decks I'm going to test a 1 of Sigarda in the sb. The main problem with Sigarda is the mana cost and just being to slow. But those matchups seem to be a grindy trade of resources that takes us to the mid game. They also don't pressure our mana very hard. They do have wasteland but it seems to be more for hitting utility lands or tempo plays early on if it presents itself.
I play Sigarda in Nic Fit and against GBx lotV decks she is an absolute house. The only way to kill her is through Toxic Deluge for them.
I need to do more testing against this MU but my hope is that the only real problem cards for us are DRS (as others have mentioned) for shrinking our Knights and allowing them to gain mana/tempo advantage and start pulling ahead of us early on. I think Jace/Lilli are also problematic. If we're both trading removal and then on an empty board they drop one of their PW that is very bad. They then just start to take over the game. I believe the PW problem is part of the DRS issue. DRS technically allows turn 2 lili and turn 3 Jace if appropriate. This is why killing early DRS and using Thalia/wasteland will still be a relevant gameplan against them imo.
Fast TNN starts are also dangerous but we can race with SOFI or stabilize with SOLAS/Jitte and post sb have access to zealous persecution.
As far as Leovold and Goyf go my hope is that we can just challenge them with bigger Knights/Scooze or equipment even.
I have done a little testing and so far with new Thalia I have found that in mid to late game when the other deck has already set up most of its lands and creatures a card like Thalia 2.0 doesn't pull us back. I suppose the same could be said for old Thalia but she also costs 1 less. However in the early game and if we can pump her out turn 2 the card is absolutely back breaking. It gives fair decks such a headache. So I hope she can be our own T2 drop that gives BUG a headache with all their non basics.
i play Thalia 2.0 since shes out and she is backbreaking sometimes..
Sigarda is probably the best fatty you want in a bug meta.
i had a lot of games where turn 3 Sigarda has ended games rather quickly.
IMO i would not go straight GW. sideboard cards like Zealous Persecution/Toxic, Abrupt Decay and Thoughtsize are really important.
i really like your inclusion of blessed alliance in the board. i think i will try and add 1 or 2.
great against every big monster like progenitus/griseldaddy/nemesis/etc. also good against burn to maybe buy you 1 more turn.
I have found all the leovold, shardless, and BUG lists in general to only be slightly harder than a bye. And since I run Scryb Ranger and Dark Depths, it is often them complaining that their deathrites feel invalidated. I am unsure anything at all needs to be changed against them unless they change themselves so drastically as to no longer be similar to their current itirations.
I am currently testing and experimenting with possible top replacements for my miracles list. Essentially, I fear the complacency that assuming miracles brings. So if I can find a variant first--even if it's 5-10 percent worse than the original, it would still be good enough to crush green men's dreams.
I'm not quite sold on dark depths but the fact that it seemably crushes BUG makes a good case for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TMagpie
It's just a different axis. Since they don't run either Karakas or Exile effects, instant speed indestructible flyer can often kill them even when they're ahead. You don't go for it immediately, you try to kill them with Sfm, Knights, moms, etc... and only if you either see an opening or if your board state gets wrecked do you start searching. I also love that if they Brick your knight with Truename you just make a flyer they can't kill and beat them anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
Edit::
Depths combo is not an easy splash. I run 4 DRS, 1 BoP, 22 mana producing lands and run 61 cards just to fit the Depths. (I also use 4 SFM and a Maze so that also really stuffs card space)
Ie, you have to *want* the effect of you want to run it.
I'm tearing up... new Maverick lists....Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
That being said, I love the Heirarch over DRS for the guaranteed mana generation. Especially against the new insurgence of DRS.
Take a look at Prelate, as I think turn 2 prelates are the future of the deck.
What do you guys think about mirran crusader?
On an stoneforge build its very powerfull.
And cares not about goyfs, leovolds, fatal pushs, decays etc...
I have been trying to piece together a build that does not rely on the graveyard, so we can run RiP against snapcaster/goyf/DRS.dec, and Miriam Crusader is a front runner for slots in that list. Knight is just so big in the reanimator/show and eldrazi matchups for just being so big.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_Deschain
RIP is good and I don't blame you for trying to put it in. I like what Thomas Herzog in a podcast said however, something along the lines of gy hate is good against us but we can fight through it.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
It shrinks Knight but we still have equipment to make big threats. If other decks try to bring in to much guy hate against us they're just diluting their deck.
I also like the idea of Noble. Very consistent and adds pressure + a human to be named off cavern. That said DRS can produce black which can be relevant post SB and also pressures with 2 grim lavamancer to the face and is GY hate.
For me right now it's apples and oranges moving forward and we can only really tell where we might want to shift towards once the meta settles a little.
So far BUG doesn't seem bad. If they start packing more dread of night/toxic deluge however that could be bad. Bloodmoon decks can also be rough so I could see it being reasonable to try and up the basic count at some point.
Overall I think we're in a good spot. Reanimator and Storm and Sneak and Show are very reasonable matchups (omni Sneak being quite a bit tougher) and same goes for lands/BUG/stoneblade decks...I think we will have a lot of close matchups that we can close the gap through tight play and our *tricks* to gain some percentage points.
Elves and Infect still worry me. For Elves md 2x Thalia 2.0 is my answer pre sb to try and make it at least a little better. So far new Thalia has been pretty good and even if she comes in at the stage of the game where an opponent has a bit more developed board state the 3/2 first strike is not bad and carries equipment well.
3x sfm also feels really good. T1 mother of runes into T2 SFM is quite the beating against a lot of fair decks.
I'm going to an 80 man "win a lotus" event this Saturday. Hope to check back in and post findings and results from it.
I've been running 4 basics for a while now (2x forest, 1x plains, 1x swamp), and i've been very happy with that setup. Fetching one of each is easy enough and can cast the entire deck (barring courser of kruphix in my list). Makes blood moon/ wasteland way less good against the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
I really like the idea of 4 basics. I think for my deck I would want 2x forest 2x plainsQuote:
Originally Posted by DoomRabbit
My current mana base is as such.
Lands: 22
4x windswept Heath
3x verdant catacombs
1x forest
1x plains
1x karakas
1x gaeas's cradle
1x horizon canopy
1x cavern of souls
2x Savannah
2x bayou
1x scrubland
4x wasteland
So my list runs G/W MD with 3 thoughtseize, 2 zealous persecution and toxic deluge as its black sb cards.
To add another forest and plains my initial thought is to swap out the cavern of souls and a bayou. Cavern in general is a flex slot and there's no MD black so cutting the second MD bayou seems to make most sense. Going down to 6 fetches could also be correct but that's less quick DRS food and general fixing. The other concern is then having 9 turn 1 black sources. Thoughtseize is a card that generally is my best T1 play against combo and 10 black sources already feels light.
I think this is definitely a situation where just running it/testing it is most appropriate and making dirtier changes from there. But maybe some of you can glean some wisdom on me.
Edit: The black sources are too important to hit and already light enough that for my current list the only thing I can cut with a clean conscious is Cavern. It replaced Forest x2 for Miracles but now doesn't make as much sense. Against bloodmoon decks we only really need one green source to GSZ for QP and being able to set up 3 lands that can't be wasted is really all we need I suppose. I think 4 would be most ideal but if it means I have less chance of getting the thoughtseize/zp off when I need to I don't think it's worth it.
And the Peacekeeper against elfs, sneak attack? maybe with a fauna Shaman in main deck?
My mana base is almost identical, with - cavern, bayou for forest, swamp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
I run main deck abrupt decay though, so that's where the swamp comes in, means I can cast decays through a blood moon
Hey,
This is my last post about Maverick.
In that list I changed sideboard:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge (big table clean)
1 Chalice of the Void (tutorable all in one star card, big what the f*** effect :) )
1 Crucible of Worlds (tutorable Life from the Loam Effect)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Choke
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
And I tested:
Renegade Rallier - After some testing, effect is too random, in theory he can back to game lands (wasteland, stage, dark depths) and hate beards. Refresh old problem with Eternal Witness - Deathrite Shaman and better targets for zenith.
When and where I want use - Sanctum Prelate?
Pure or almost pure green-white version of deck.
Almost only with 4 Swords to Plowshares and Aether Vial / Green Sun's Zenith pack.
With more mana dorks to drop him in second turn.
In more like DnT deck without Enlightened Tutors in sideboard.
We really need him? In the past Maverick can won with combo etc.
I want 3 in my maindeck and then I'll adjust accordingly. I was running 4x SFM so that definitely influences my opinion of him. With equipment he's gravy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_Deschain
Is not Prelade slow?
Peacekeeper with fauna on main deck does not remain unviable?
Prelate comes online turn 2, which is standard for hate bears in legacy, especially when we run 4 GSZ/4 Heirarch/1 Dryar Arbor. Fauna Shaman comes online turn 3 at the earliest and if you hit all of your land drops you can have a turn 3 peacekeeper against elves... more likely turn 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Humberto
I have taken gsz build into two leagues, one 3-2s and 1 0-3 (weird matchups).
I think vial may still be worth it.
What did you face?Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
League 1:Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
Sneak and show: 2-0
Storm: 2-1
BRgw Zombardment: 0-2
Bant/b: 2-1
Burn: 1-2
League 2
Storm with Daze (is this a thing?): 1-2
Burn: 0-2 (his draw lined up perfectly with mine)
UWr Blade/snapcaster/sweepers/jace: 0-2
Started off another league:
Elves: 0-2
Storm: 2-0
Sneak and Show: 2-0
UWr Geist of st traft: 2-0
I am going to do a lot of testing of all versions (zenith, vial, punishing), because I really want to just play this deck for the rest of my life.
I also plan on streaming some of this, so I will keep you guys posted
On the topic of cutting black.
Think of this: D&T, Elves, Aluren and TNN are on the rise. What does it mean for us?
It means that all -1/-1 effects, which many people have been cutting, are back to sideboards. Really, people. Don't play Hierarch over DRS in the new meta, or you will be heavily punished by Zealous Persecutions, Golgari Charms, Marsh Casualties and other stuff like that.
Black offers us many highly useful things, namely Decay (Delver come closer), Thoughtseize (it is really strong vs combo decks, I don't leave home without at least 3 in sb), and Persecutions to deal with all the abovementioned decks ourselves.
I think that a good compromise between speed and CA will be the way to go. I'm probably going to the next FNM with 4DRS + 1NH, 2+1 ADs, 1 Tracker and a Courser or a Rallier. I also think that Maze might make the way to the deck once again (previously, I really didn't wanna draw it against Miracles, but now - oh yeah).
Not sure what I think of Prelates, but it might be a strong sideboard card, since RUG Delver might become a thing again, and it helps in many other problematic matchups, e.g. Storm or Sneak and Show.
I loved Maze vs Miracle primarily to get extra value from KotR and DRSQuote:
Originally Posted by aspsnake
To keep things moving I currently have 2 builds:
Noble Heirarch and Sanctum Prelate
Heirarch ensures turn 2 Prelate/Knight/crusader and the list is mostly humans for Cavern of Souls to have value. Not much to be said as his is mostly the standard list with only Pridemage as a tutor target game one... exalted triggers on crusader are dumb.
Or
Renegade Rallier and Smugglers Copter
The looter scooter lets your Thalia's and Moms fly over for 3 and a loot, while filling up the graveyard for Renegade Rallier, the deck currently has 3 Scryb Rangers for interactions with DRS, Scooter and Remegade Rallier, as she always gives a Revolt Trigger.
Anyone else brewing?
Sounds like you are running pretty good given the matchups. UW control will always be an issue, so that 2nd league is just nightmare after nightmare. The rest of your games seem decent.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
I disagree. I think you should be able to handle UWx Stoneblade decks. Especially if you run many pride mage. None of their threats are good without equipment. And after board choke is still something I'd be running if I were you.
How do you feel about punishing? It was the original version of the deck that grabbed my attention, so I've always had a soft spot for it, but I've never really played it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Tried it earlier this week, and it felt super clunky after playing GWb for the past year. It also feels like quite a different deck, so I was most likely playing it wrong.
The issue with this deck was more he had so many 2 for 1s that I just got ground out. It didn't really matter what he won with, he went swords snapcaster too many times. Post board he pyroclasmed me and EE'd me. Luckily I know the pilot, and he said it can't win vs combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I like punishing maverick a lot, I cashed multiple scgs with it before. I think you still need the black so it's quite greedy however. I play 23 lands in my version. Just treat it like Naya stoneblade.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRabbit
I feel the exact same way. Punishing fire does the lord's work when everyone is trying to play fairly, you also can heavily game your sideboard for combo decks + you get things like sudden demise and pyroblast as potential sideboard. I think it was someone on the source that did well with it last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
My problem with PFire right now is that the uptick of Leotard/True Name BUG decks and combo decks that PFire is pretty shitty.
Cool! Any chance for a list? Really keen to give it a fair shot. I was straight naya in the list I tried.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
I may be wrong on this....
Punishing Maverick is a worst version of Maverick. If you want to play punishing fire I would play aggro loam. Combo is deffinently going to increase and so will elves and TNN decks. If we don't play black I think we will have a hard time dealing with these archetypes.
Just my opinion
That's Seraphix on this forum. Punishing Maverick also did well at MKM last year in the hands of Fabien Gorzgen and at EE5 in the hands of Mark Strassman (Strassbaw on this forum??) I always hoped that Gorzgen might find his way to this forum to enlighten us as to the ways of the Pun Mav since it appears to be the only deck he has played for the past six years, but, oh ho, alas, alas, he has not.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Their lists:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12433&d=271511&f=LE
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13842&d=281765&f=LE
Obviously this is speculation and no one really knows what the meta will look like exactly...but I think moving forward Maverick will be a deck with a lot of 50/50 MU with a few its favored against and a few unfavored. Speaking to that I think I want to try and keep my list as flexible as possible.
So far in testing Sigarda has been great. Against any grindy/fair MU it's such a beating. Great against the control decks as well. For now I'm keeping it in the SB as my fair MU bomb to bring in.
Thalia 2.0 is also proving herself well. I think her biggest benefit is being really good against one of our worst MU but still being good against a lot of the field. So far 2x feels really good. Any more and you start to run into the problem of getting stuck in hand with them and it just being blanked by karakas. I also don't want to clutter the deck with 3 drops. It's currently the flex slot but I don't think I'd want to go down to 1. You want to see it as early as possible and as a non GSZ'able 3 drop I think I would only see it more mid-late game where it's not nearly as effective.
If you can get aggressive enough with mana denial and removal she can stay live a fairly long time. It was always surprising to me how relevant she was at times even on turn 5+ when you are trying to close the game or get through a key attack with a weapon that will turn the tide of the game and their dude that would normally block can't, or you have them cut from a color and they can't find it on time. Or it buys your cradle an extra turn from an opposing wasteland to really give you a massive advantage. I ran 3 of her (albeit accidentally because I had a massive deck Reg error) at the last win a mox here and got top 8 largely on her back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
Here is my Punishing Fire list:Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRabbit
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Pyroblast
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
List is a little wonky, but still fine I think.