[Deck] Zoo

Hi. I have been following the Zoo and Burn threads for the last few months. I played competitively in the Junior Super Series tournaments 10 years ago in New York, slowed down in high school and my last tournament was GP Boston 2005. I got the itch a few months to play again, didn't own a single card. Bought Patrick Sullivan's entire Burn deck and enjoyed playing at a local tournament.

10 proxies are allowed. I picked up the Zoo conversion kit and prefer the fast version. My 10 proxies are 6 duals and 4 Tarmogoyfs. I do not like Steppe Lynx and would prefer Loam Lion, but feel a Savannah would throw things off, as my sac lands are Mesa, Tarn and Mire.

Right now, I look like this:

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf (Proxy)
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Path to Exile

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
3 Mountain
3 Taiga (Proxy)
3 Plateau (Proxy)

SB:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Path to Exile
1 Price of Progress
1 Sylvan Library
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Searing Blaze

The metagame is a quality mix: Merfolk, ANT, Deadguy Ale, Big Zoo, U/W Landstill, Team America, High Tide.

I do not have access to Wastelands and I do not like Rift Bolt so much, so I went with the 3rd fireblast, 3 PoPs and 1 PtE compared to Sullivan.

Skyshroud Elite, Isamaru/Savannah Lions, Ghazban Ogre/Wild Dogs all came up as 2+ power for 1 mana replacements for Lynx. Elite seems like an unnecessary risk, Ogre/Dogs could turn a Burn/Mirror match from even to lopsided with a bolt on their side. Savannah Lions has 1 toughness and Isamaru still only has 2 and I would not play more than 1 or 2 in the deck due to Legendary, regardless.

Is Rift Bolt a replacement? I like 23 creatures to overload a single mental misstep.

Thoughts are appreciated.

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Originally Posted by David Kaplan

Hi. I have been following the Zoo and Burn threads for the last few months. I played competitively in the Junior Super Series tournaments 10 years ago in New York, slowed down in high school and my last tournament was GP Boston 2005. I got the itch a few months to play again, didn't own a single card. Bought Patrick Sullivan's entire Burn deck and enjoyed playing at a local tournament.

10 proxies are allowed. I picked up the Zoo conversion kit and prefer the fast version. My 10 proxies are 6 duals and 4 Tarmogoyfs. I do not like Steppe Lynx and would prefer Loam Lion, but feel a Savannah would throw things off, as my sac lands are Mesa, Tarn and Mire.

Right now, I look like this:

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf (Proxy)
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Path to Exile

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
3 Mountain
3 Taiga (Proxy)
3 Plateau (Proxy)

SB:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Path to Exile
1 Price of Progress
1 Sylvan Library
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Searing Blaze

The metagame is a quality mix: Merfolk, ANT, Deadguy Ale, Big Zoo, U/W Landstill, Team America, High Tide.

I do not have access to Wastelands and I do not like Rift Bolt so much, so I went with the 3rd fireblast, 3 PoPs and 1 PtE compared to Sullivan.

Skyshroud Elite, Isamaru/Savannah Lions, Ghazban Ogre/Wild Dogs all came up as 2+ power for 1 mana replacements for Lynx. Elite seems like an unnecessary risk, Ogre/Dogs could turn a Burn/Mirror match from even to lopsided with a bolt on their side. Savannah Lions has 1 toughness and Isamaru still only has 2 and I would not play more than 1 or 2 in the deck due to Legendary, regardless.

Is Rift Bolt a replacement? I like 23 creatures to overload a single mental misstep.

Thoughts are appreciated.

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Hey David, were you a Sligh player back when Type 1 was popular? I remember that The Mana Drain adepts would mention you as an example of how an unpowered Sligh deck could beat fully powered Keeper decks. Not sure if it's you, or how you did it, but big props if so. :)

My personal preference has evolved from the Fast Zoo builds to the Big Zoo builds, but I think in modern Legacy, if you're going to play with 12 fetchlands, lots of burn, and "bad" late game creatures like Goblin Guide, you're going to want the early damage potential of Steppe Lynx. "Moderate" Zoo builds will often run Loam Lion or Kird Ape over Steppe Lynx, but none of them opt for any of the (10+ year old) 2-powered one-drops you mentioned as alternatives to Lynx, since creature power creep has left them in the dust. All of them lack the explosive power of Lynx, and neither of them are as consistent as Ape/Lion (smaller ass, dependent on opponent's manabase/life total, etc.). If you want to consider a more normal Zoo build, you gain access to Qasali Pridemage and a few copies of Knight of the Reliquary, but if your looking to race, I'd just sleeve up those Lynxes and start burning face.

Can we make a list of the upside of path? I keep noticing that i dont know very many bad matchups where i need to path a creature that i cant bolt. (or chain)
wht are our trgets for path that are un boltable?
stax deck stuff, KOR, tombstalker....theres gotta be more....
how has -1 or -2 path done for you guys
I feel like its most relevant against decks like bant and maerick with KOR, but arent those already good MU's?

also, for sb, thought on breath of darigaz? it hits empty the warrens tokens as well as random elves, etc, and can double as a finisher. even the 1 damage is relevant

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jnosrati

Can we make a list of the upside of path? I keep noticing that i dont know very many bad matchups where i need to path a creature that i cant bolt. (or chain)
wht are our trgets for path that are un boltable?
stax deck stuff, KOR, tombstalker....theres gotta be more....
how has -1 or -2 path done for you guys
I feel like its most relevant against decks like bant and maerick with KOR, but arent those already good MU's?

also, for sb, thought on breath of darigaz? it hits empty the warrens tokens as well as random elves, etc, and can double as a finisher. even the 1 damage is relevant

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Three paths is generally fine, with 1 more in the board.

There are quite a few creatures you need to Path:
Tarmogoyf
Tombstalker
Knight of the Reliquary
Countryside Crusher
Batterskull Germ Token
Master of Etherium
Myr Enforcer

The reason to run Path is because these will really shut you down. It's not just that these are the only ones that need Path for removal, it's that you need a good mix and quantity of Instant speed removal to push attackers through. Let's say you're not worried about Thombstalkers, Crushers, Masters and Enforcers. Ok. But if you cut out 3 key pieces of removal, you have a better chance of not being able to push your creatures through even smaller creatures.

Much of this depends on the rest of your deck, but if you cut Paths and your opponent has any creature with a Jitte on it, you want to kill it. It doesn't matter if a bolt will do it, you just need some type of removal. And if you don't have enough removal in your deck....

tl;dr: In addition to the creatures that can only be removed with Path/Swords, there is also an issue of ensuring a critical mass of instant speed removal.

Also Ichorid, and possibly Abyssal Persecutor/Phyrexian Obliterator, although you aren't likely to see either of those two very often. Personally I run 4 main, and two StP in the board. Opposing fatties are just bad news.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Also Ichorid, and possibly Abyssal Persecutor/Phyrexian Obliterator, although you aren't likely to see either of those two very often. Personally I run 4 main, and two StP in the board. Opposing fatties are just bad news.

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Good points. Obliterator is more common than Persecutor, but RFGing rather than bolting creatures is very relevant in the Dredge MU, not just Ichorid.

A lot of this does come down to the particular build too. A burn-heavy Patrick Sullivan style Zoo has less need of Path than a creature heavier build.

Has Tin Street Hooligan been (re)visited as a candidate for this deck in the Artifact heavy metagame we seem to be dealing with? Batterskull, Jitte, Aether Vial, Moxen, CotV, Affinity, Meandeck MUD, various combos (LED/Chrome Mox, Painter/Grind, Orb/Monolith), etc.

It seems like it would be fairly solid to have more Qasali Pridemages. Thoughts?

Also if you get landproblems, you can PTE your own creature to get land :)

I play a pair of Tin Street hooligan and he is amazing due to the fact that nearly every opponent runs SFM and Batterskull/Jitte/Swords. But I think two are enough, but as I said very good.

I think Ancient Grudge is better. Sure there's no body attached, but it's Instant, and you get to use it twice, which really puts pressure on counter-heavy strategies. Also, having one sitting in your graveyard forces the opponent to make tougher decisions, which is usually a good thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

I think Ancient Grudge is better. Sure there's no body attached, but it's Instant, and you get to use it twice, which really puts pressure on counter-heavy strategies. Also, having one sitting in your graveyard forces the opponent to make tougher decisions, which is usually a good thing.

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I agree Ancient Grudge is better Artifact hate, but I can't see running it main deck. Occasionally it's just a blank. Tin Street Hooligan I feel like could be a defensible 1-2 of MD in the current meta, it's always a body at the absolute least. Sorry I guess my earlier post didn't specify that I was thinking it could be run main.

@ richard cheese and from cairo
what are your metas? I dont see the need to have even 4 pridemages

I play Pridemage as a 4-of. I could never imagine playing any less.

Until the meta proves otherwise, I've switched my Grips to Ancient Grudges. There is no Counterbalance, Enchantress is always small, and X-Still decks packing Humility and/or Dueling Grounds aren't big either and the one enchantment we would want it against doesn't care about removal (Hive Mind). SFM decks, Affinity, Painted Grindstone...all of these decks either demand multiple answers or have counterspells. While Grip dodges them, Grudge essentially does too and when it isn't countered, it sure screws up their next plays. If the meta shifts around I could see changing it, but for now Zoo SBs should have 2-4 Anicient Grudge and 2-3 Pyroblast. My list has SFM in it, so my SB looked like this at Baltimore:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
1 SFM
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Thrun
2 Teeg

Not sure what I would change yet. It is meta dependent really, but this SB shores up SFM decks, Affinity, NO Bant/RUG, Show and Tell decks, and slow Ux control decks (and more incidental hate for Goblins and Merfolk), most of the popular decks going into Baltimore..

My current/Baltimore list: http://deckbox.org/sets/61221

Okay, many decks play artifacts that's true, but why would you play removal??
You got 4 qasali's and if there artifacts 4 removal is enough I think :)
Ancient grudge doesn't do anything and tin street holigan isn't strong either so^^
I just think 4 qasali is just enough...

Okay, many decks play artifacts that's true, but why would you play removal??
You got 4 qasali's and if there artifacts 4 removal is enough I think :)
Ancient grudge doesn't do anything and tin street holigan isn't strong either so^^
I just think 4 qasali is just enough...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

I think Ancient Grudge is better. Sure there's no body attached, but it's Instant, and you get to use it twice, which really puts pressure on counter-heavy strategies. Also, having one sitting in your graveyard forces the opponent to make tougher decisions, which is usually a good thing.

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It's a minor note, but to add to that, if you get Hymn'd and Grudge ends up getting canned, you still have it available for :g:.

I can't imagine playing more than 2 artifact hates in my sideboard considering 4 Pridemages main (and I think that 4 is the right number)...if I'm expecting a lot of the new crop of Affinity decks, I'm probably going to lean towards playing Meltdown in the sideboard. It can be absurd how much you blow up for a simple :1::r: with Meltdown. Even playing it for just :r: pretty much demolishes their mana base.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BantFTW

Okay, many decks play artifacts that's true, but why would you play removal??
You got 4 qasali's and if there artifacts 4 removal is enough I think :)
Ancient grudge doesn't do anything and tin street holigan isn't strong either so^^
I just think 4 qasali is just enough...

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My friend Affinity would like a word with you.

And so would Stoneforge Mystic and MUD, I guess ^^

Lol not seeing much affinity so idk :)