That is a diverging line of play from the others that we should be taking as far as our typical mana denial strategy. It is an interesting thought though.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajfennewald
Printable View
That is a diverging line of play from the others that we should be taking as far as our typical mana denial strategy. It is an interesting thought though.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajfennewald
It's pretty hard to deny lands from mana with all the loaming and crucibling & explorations etc. Maze of Ith's & Glacial Chasms make worthwhile targets for wastelands though. But as UR player I can tell that Price is beast against lands.
I am not totally writing this idea off. It could be useful against Esper, Jund, BUG... etc. The meta game has really developed into a lot of these decks with greedy mana bases (RUG included). It also would be the finisher... that is to say as long as you aren't going to die and your opponent will, it seems fine. I am just wondering if there is something else out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by syfilisx
Sulfuric Vortex beats Lands, and is useful in other matchups as well. Might be harder if they are playing Abrupt Decay or whatever, but generally if you can get a few swings in with early creatures, Vortex + Burn should be enough to finish them off.
Nimble Mongoose is your best threat here since it dodges Maze of Ith. Don't walk a bunch of threats into an Engineered Explosives if you can help it.
Don't forget to side in your graveyard hate if you have it. A timely Surgical Extraction or Tormod's Crypt can give them fits.
I had recently bumped my two boarded Vortexes down to one and later cut the singleton copy. I like the Vortex plan over the Price of Progress plan. wcm8, I had come to basically the same conclusion. You want to get some early beats in and then try to burn them out as they are establishing control of the board. Vortex does some good here as it gives us inevitability and shuts down Zuran Orb. I think Vortex is going to be the game plan for the next event. I will probably board about the same but with the inclusion of 1-2 Vortex. wcm8 what are your thoughts on the Jund match up?Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
It's bad. Even against a mediocre Jund player, the raw power of the cards can just stomp all over RUG. Their 75 is designed to beat our 60, and there doesn't really seem to be any single option that would turn the matchup around. Pray to the topdeck gods. Winning this matchup is largely going to depend on luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
Cards that might help:
Chill (hurts us too... But can really slow them down)
Submerge
Mind Harness
Obstinate Baloth (Jund might actually be easy if you play 3-4 of these. Pretty narrow)
Rough // Tumble
Pithing Needle (on DRS or Lili, or even Punishing Fire)
Life from the Loam
Divert / Misdirection
Sulfuric Vortex (and maybe even Price of Progress)
Scavenging Ooze (if he can survive a few turns its pretty great)
Midrange decks like Jund and The Rock are designed to beat Blue tempo. If you're seeing this round after round, you're probably better off just running a different deck altogether.
Thanks! I had been considering bringing Vortex back as you suggested. I have also been back and forth on Misdirection/Divert. I may have to give them a try. A lot of the options that you have mentioned I either have tried or have been running. There are two guys at locals that play Jund now. The one occasionally play Affinity and the other is sporadic in attendance. I think the rest of my match ups are pretty decent to good after board. I don't think either of the Jund guys are particularly good players, which is the worst part about losing to them. I may have to take another hard look at my meta and see if it is time to switch over to Miracles or Stoneblade for a few weeks. wcm8 thanks again for your suggestions!
I've actually found the Jund matchup to be fairly even. They have many powerful cards against us, but so do we against them; it comes down to skill with the deck and a decent mulligan.
Stifle's the obvious MVP here, because a majority of the players a majority of the time are trying to do one thing against RUG: cast bloodbraid. Mostly it's because they've all been told that it's a powerhouse versus blue (which it is), but I think they miss the fact that BBE is best versus UW.
For our concerns, however, it should be treated as a combo card; prevent them from reaching it with Stifle and Bolt (DRS, Bob) and keep a threat in play (goose being the most robust). Jund's a greedy deck, requiring a lot of its manabase, so punish it. Pierce Hymns, save Snares.
In boarding, I agree with Vortex--Jund is a suicide black deck in it's heart of hearts, and fucking them out of DRS life gain is huge once they dip beneath ten. Divert is also powerful, and Submerge and Rough//Tumble are both savage at the right time. Don't forget you can submerge in response to Cascade, screwing them out of a goyf + BBE swing.
Make sure you drop FoW firstmost: the last thing we want to be doing to two-for-one-ing ourselves against the marquee deck of two-for-ones. Pierce and Daze still have merit, as Jund players love to tap out, but probably Daze would probably be the next thing I'd cut.
This isn't Team America, where Jund is a virtual auto-loss; RUG has plenty of ways to deal with it. I'd also run the following as my flexes for an open, esp. one where Jund may be a menace:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Fire // Ice or 2 Forked Bolt
If you want to tayler RUG to beat jund I would suggest increasing the burn count in the deck. I have had alot of susscess with blue zoo agasint jund (5-0) in matches. The main relevant differentiating factor between blue zoo and RUG is I run alot more burn (12 peices). Jund does not respond well to always losing their deathrite shaman and having to deal with alot of reach. Also maindeck grim lavamancers are good here.
RUG Delver is incredibly threat light; 12 creatures is the norm. As such, having 1-2 of our creatures killed early game is a pretty big deal. Unfortunately, Jund is well equipped to do just that as they run Bolt (kills Delver), Abrupt Decay (kills Delver and Goyf and can't be countered), Liliana of the Veil (kills Mongoose), Punishing Fire (kills Delver + inevitable win of the Goyf war for them). If they open with a removal heavy hand, it's really, really tough to get a threat to stick. And this is with them still trying to cast other spells (disruption, threats). Having been on both sides of the table, it's a very tough matchup for RUG Delver if the Jund opponent is competent.
Just wanted to quickly point out that Pithing Needle does not work on Punishing Fire. It's a triggered ability caused by the opponent gaining 1 life. Needle only shuts down activated abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I've had some success lately against Jund using a build with 7-8 removal spells on the maindeck, and submerges and rough/tumbles on the sideboard. Post board I take out FOWs and a number of spell pierces. The match up is pretty difficult when you are on the draw. Stifle and nimble mongoose play a key role in the matchup.
Yeah, if you're build is running 8+ removal spells, then you'll have a fairly decent chance against Jund as all of their creatures, save for Goyf, are */2 guys that die to virtually any burn spell. However, most builds are only running 4-6 removal spells, so that's when Jund becomes a major problem.
Current test list. Idea is to be more stack oriented game 1, and then can side into burn for post-board games against creature/midrange decks. Please let me know your thoughts. Forked Bolt is the biggest ? in my board. Please remember this is a test list.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce
2 Fire // Ice
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Board:
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Forked Bolt or Pithing Needle (name on Griselbrand, Jace, Lilly, Deathrite, Top, Wateland even)
made 2nd at a 28-man today, though I double-ID'd and we split Top 8. So, not much to talk about as I only played 3 rounds.
List was as stock as it gets, with a side adjusted for metagame:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Fire // Ice
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
SB:
3 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
Round One: Elves
Game one He casts Craterhoof with a swarm of pointy-earred men. I have nothing but Tarmogoyfs and Mongeese
Boarding:
-3 Daze
-2 Spell Pierce
+3 Submerge
+2 Rough // Tumble
Game two I stifle both of his fetchlands and fishbowl with Delver for six turns.
Game three he fetches a Bayou, plays deathrite. I kill it, with double submerge in hand, which keep him off progressing his game. Eventually, he has a Heritage Druid, a sick Llanowar Elf and just the bayou. in one turn I waste the bayou, kill the Llanowar and run out Delver, who flips. He pokes for one, I maul for three. I win the race.
Round 2: T.E.S.
Piloted by Ning, arguably one of the best players in the American NE, this was an intense match. I played super tight and was rewarded by many lucky draws.
Game one I misjudged what he was doing; when he chose not to imprint Chrome Mox I should have known something was up, and could have forced his dark rit. I chose not to, going against my gut instinct; as a result he had Empty the Warrens at Storm 6.
Boarding:
-4 Lightning Bolt
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Ancient Grudge
+2 Rough // Tumble
Game Two I have the opener containing a Flusterstorm, Stifle and a Delver. It's an intense round and I took sparse notes as I wanted to focus on recouping after game one. I play it safe, keeping at least one or two mana up for counters/stifle. Eventually Delver flips and I get there.
Game three I mull to six to double brainstorm, double force, spell snare and tarmogoyf. I keep, and the gods of greed reward me with a top-deck Scalding Tarn.
He asks the judge what the Tumble half of Rough // Tumble does; I tell him it's terrible.
It's still a tight-as-hell game, but eventually a 4/5 goof gets him to 3 life. He has 5 cards in hand, I have a Daze and a Force.
Lotus Petal. I think; resolves.
Lotus Petal. Uh oh. I think more, awaiting the dreaded Silence; it resolves.
Lotus Petal. Not much I can do now, anyway; he has four mana, and if he has the empty, I just need to dig for Rough // Tumble. Resolves.
Dark Ritual. Incredibly aware of my game one mistake, I consider countering it. I decide that there's a possibility that he doesn't have a storm spell in hand, and, given that he already has enough mana for anything in the deck, giving him the extra storm is moot.
Infernal Tutor, hell bent. Massive sigh of relief as I pitch the Daze.
Great games, definitely some of the best play I've executed in the past few months.
Round 3: Rock/Dark Mav/"JunkBlade"
These games were easy mode compared to Ning. Favorite sequence from game one: Snare an SFM, Bolt a Dryad Arbor to block an exalted pridemage with my newly 3/4 Goof and waste his tapped wasteland. He's left with a tapped plains and nothing else.
Boarding:
-3 Daze
-2 Pierce
+3 Submerge
+2 Rough // Tumble
Game two he covers lost ground with a timely RIP to nullify goyf and lingering souls to impede Delver. Neither are enough.
The next round the 1st place Esper player and I ID, though in our "for fun" games I run roughshod all over him. The Jund player afterwards draws with me and Top 8 splits the prize.
All in all, made 160 in store cred and had a sweet day of stifling.
Why would you take all the four bolts before taking out Fire//Ice? It's such a bad card against Storm. Bolt isn't great, but it can add some clock, and make Ad Nauseam a little worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Especially since bolt goes to the face better and kills xantid swarm for less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
Fire // Ice is completely kosher to pitch to FoW, whereas any other card has some kind of downside. It can also have narrow, yet useful, applications, such as being able to kill two goblin tokens, or tapping down a land or LED to gain a virtual time walk.
Fire // Ice just gives you more options, imo, whereas bolt is just a burn spell (though, granted, the best one ever made). I'm also uncertain of the inclusion of Rough // Tumble vs storm, but I think the empty kill is their usual route vs us.
Why would you want to tap a LED? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Well, if it's on upkeep, you can deny them a black lotus, esp. If you're waiting for ancient grudge you tucked away with a brainstorm or ponder. It's also good to buy you a turn for delver to flip or a creature to deal lethal, and you gain incremental advantage by tapping city of brassQuote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer