Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by cartothemax

Congrats on your finish. Would the 2nd Counterspell be worth cutting in your mind for the 4th FOW? Also, how were the Meddling Mages in your SB? Do you remember which matches you brought them in for and what you named or were hoping to name?

Thanks in advance for insights.

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Oops, kind of forgot to respond for a while. Sorry. And yeah, I'm cutting the 2nd counterspell for the 4th FOW. The 2 counterspells were not amazing and I feel like I could have gotten by with just one. The MM's have been okay in the past, but I almost never saw them during the course of the tournament. I boarded them in against omni(obviously), Lands(To name loam, since they take Pfires out, and against BG Depths, to again, name loam. They were not amazing, so I think those are the cards I will cut to add 2 mentors to the board.

Philipp is currently doing an AMA over at reddit. Check it out!

http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/co...mes_legacy_gp/

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Originally Posted by Poron

Izzet Staticaster and Sulfur Elemental to make tokens cry

Really, I do not see how combo is a problem.
They run Decay for Cb? We drop Canonist and Meddling Mage on Infernal Tutor/Abrupt Decay/Show and Tell

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And you asume you always have both? It's pointless if you have MM @ Infernal and it's getting decayed instead of Counterbalance as is naming Decay w/o Counterbalance in play etc.

no, that's the point. we might not have them together and we have just MM. At that point we name Infernal Tutor

after many tests, Venser is much more a SB card.

3rd Vendilion Clique is much better.
Really, with 3 you can also afford to waste one for the early pressure this deck has never had...

Cavern of Soul can be pointless instead.. the most important creatures to resolve are Containment Priest and Vendilion Clique.. they don't share anything with each other and it prevents us a little more from playing Blood Moon

I am considering playing a Cavern in the SB, simply for clique and snapcaster. It's pretty easy to board -2 plains instead of -1, and just bring in the cavern.

For those interested in my Miracle deck, I did some updates, explained a few things.

http://itsjulian.com/?p=1661

It's just the list with the most alters, not my most recent one. :D

Greetings

So how many Mentor you playing in the SB?

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

For those interested in my Miracle deck, I did some updates, explained a few things.

http://itsjulian.com/?p=1661

It's just the list with the most alters, not my most recent one. :D

Greetings

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some alters are very nice, like tops and forces, but altered duals and BETA ones doens´t combine :( play all beta!! or at least all fbb :p

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Originally Posted by Ancestral

some alters are very nice, like tops and forces, but altered duals and BETA ones doens´t combine :( play all beta!! or at least all fbb :p

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Are you ancestral93 on cockatrice that just raged on me when I surgicaled ur Senseis?

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

So how many Mentor you playing in the SB?

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Is that question aimed towards me? Well, at the moment: At least one. Though everything fluctates during testing.

By the way: In case you missed it: I did an AMA (ask me anything) over on Reddit. I've had quite a large number of good questions. You might find some of your (unasked) questions there, answered! :O

http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/co...mes_legacy_gp/

Greetings

Played in several Legacy events at GP Vegas over the weekend/last week. Ended up 13-2 in matches over three events, losing to a storm player and a Jund player. There was an egregious amount of Omni-Tell in the room and I played against it in over half my matches. The victory allowed me to upgrade my Mercadian Masques Counterspells into Beta ones. Now I just need to save up for some black bordered dual lands. :laugh:

Below is the list I played and that I will run in Columbus this weekend if I do poorly at the invitational:


// Creatures (6)
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Venser, Shaper Savant

// Planeswalkers (4)
1 Ajani Vengeant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Other Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Dig Through Time
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

// Land (22)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Karakas
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Ruination
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Wear // Tear


The only card that I didn't like was the second Entreat the Angels in the sideboard, namely due to the fact that it often felt like I was over-boarding by bringing it in. I've tested some fringe cards in that spot, but nothing has really popped out so far. Pyroclasm is most likely going to be what goes into that slot. Ajani Vengeant overperformed for me greatly, tapping many Boseiju, Who Shelters All and Tarmogoyfs.

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Originally Posted by winglerw28

The only card that I didn't like was the second Entreat the Angels in the sideboard, namely due to the fact that it often felt like I was over-boarding by bringing it in. I've tested some fringe cards in that spot, but nothing has really popped out so far. Pyroclasm is most likely going to be what goes into that slot. Ajani Vengeant overperformed for me greatly, tapping many Boseiju, Who Shelters All and Tarmogoyfs.

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Since you MD 1 Entreat, I'm not against the idea of removing 2nd Entreat for Ajani. However, the reasoning feels weak.

Boseiju
Most Omn-tell will only put down that land prior to the combo turn they go off. In that case, do you really want to tap 4 lands to play something at sorcery speed that can be spell pierced at your own turn, just prior to Omni-tell attempting to combo? That's a huge risk. If I were to play a 4 CMC planeswalker spell against a combo deck, it better be a Jace because I can at least draw more counters if it resolves. The card just feels abysmal and not so interactive against combo decks.

Tarmogoyf
The issue with this line of reasoning is the context. To tap down Goyf, you have to take damage first, usually that damage is at least 4. This using-life-as-a-resource sometimes is an unnecessary risk, especially against RUG, not to mention it does nothing to Mongoose. Now, which decks run Goyf? Usually in the context of tempo decks like RUG, BUG. Again, playing a 4 CMC spell at sorcery speed that can be daze/pierce just isn't reliable enough. Furthermore, lots of BUG Delver decks now run Stifle. Not only it can stop Miracle triggers, trip fetchlands, it can also stop the Ajani activation you hope for, after you have taken the creature damage.

Conclusion
If anything, Ajani is one less clunky Miracle cards. However, I just don't see how it is better than Mentor.
Mentor vs Ajani as win-con
Ajani Pro: doesn't get Terminus away, actual life-gain, Decay free.
Ajani Con: require taking upfront creature damage to tap down, can run into pierce/daze, doesn't deal with mongoose.

Mentor Pro: no need to take upfront creature damage, can easily create monk tokens to block/attack, easier to cast against tempo
Mentor Con: can be Decayed, makes Terminus awkward

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Since you MD 1 Entreat, I'm not against the idea of removing 2nd Entreat for Ajani. However, the reasoning feels weak.

Boseiju
Most Omn-tell will only put down that land prior to the combo turn they go off. In that case, do you really want to tap 4 lands to play something at sorcery speed that can be spell pierced at your own turn, just prior to Omni-tell attempting to combo? That's a huge risk. If I were to play a 4 CMC planeswalker spell against a combo deck, it better be a Jace because I can at least draw more counters if it resolves. The card just feels abysmal and not so interactive against combo decks.

Tarmogoyf
The issue with this line of reasoning is the context. To tap down Goyf, you have to take damage first, usually that damage is at least 4. This using-life-as-a-resource sometimes is an unnecessary risk, especially against RUG, not to mention it does nothing to Mongoose. Now, which decks run Goyf? Usually in the context of tempo decks like RUG, BUG. Again, playing a 4 CMC spell at sorcery speed that can be daze/pierce just isn't reliable enough. Furthermore, lots of BUG Delver decks now run Stifle. Not only it can stop Miracle triggers, trip fetchlands, it can also stop the Ajani activation you hope for, after you have taken the creature damage.

Conclusion
If anything, Ajani is one less clunky Miracle cards. However, I just don't see how it is better than Mentor.
Mentor vs Ajani as win-con
Ajani Pro: doesn't get Terminus away, actual life-gain, Decay free.
Ajani Con: require taking upfront creature damage to tap down, can run into pierce/daze, doesn't deal with mongoose.

Mentor Pro: no need to take upfront creature damage, can easily create monk tokens to block/attack, easier to cast against tempo
Mentor Con: can be Decayed, makes Terminus awkward

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EDIT: For clarity, I am not saying to remove a sideboard Entreat for a sideboard Ajani. I mainboard an Ajani and an Entreat, and want to replace the second Entreat with something else entirely and am unsure of what that would be.

I should have clarified that I sideboard out Ajani against combo and leave him in against fair decks that often want to use Red Blast to take care of Jace - Omni is one of the biggest strikes against Ajani. The only reason I added back in a second Entreat was Moat really, but it was less needed than I had anticipated. My game plan against Omni is often to just allow everything to resolve and then to destroy Omniscience with a red blast or return it to their hand with Venser. Teferi helps a lot here, but often isn't needed. I was simply surprised how often I'd play against Omni, get into a fight over something on their turn with Venser targeting their Boseiju'ed spell, then tap their Boseiju down for the rest of the game.

Ajani is great against fair decks and I say that coming from a position that I originally felt it wasn't good enough to even be in the board. I think a lot of what feels good about the card has to do with having a diverse set of threats rather than redundant copies of the same threat. Often threatening to just destroy all lands with Ajani is enough to save you several turns, and the minus ability comes up more often than you would think. Taking damage also isn't a huge deal against most non-Jund Tarmogoyf decks. He also has far better synergy with Moat than Mentor does.

That being said, I think it is totally justifiable for Ajani to just be a counterspell slot for something like Spell Pierce or Spell Snare. I just have been very impressed with the card.

Ajani is terrible for Boseiju. I play Blood Moon for it or Cavern of Soul for Clique to respond SNT

Cavern of Soul is so stellar in the mirror that I think everyone will start playing Blood Moon in the mirror as well

I played the mirror a little recently and I'd a situation that occured a few times that left me pondering. In hand you have Sensei's Divining Top, Plains, 1-3 blue fetchlands, 0 Counterspell (the actual card), 0 Counterbalance. Obviously, fetchlands are great with Top but you want UU as soon as possible for a potential Counterbalance or Counterspell. I feel like playing the Plains is the best move but I was wondering what were your thoughts.

In the mirror, sure. But what if that blind card off the shuffle is a UU card? There are a few lines you could take: play the top off Plains, then spin on upkeep, which is probably the safest play if you went first. But if you were on the draw, I'd probably do blue source -> top.

Assuming you're on the play (and you mean you do have a CB and CS in hand, not that you have 0), I'd go fetch -> Tundra -> Top, here's my thinking:

- You'll probably have enough time in the mirror to find more fetches when you need them, so it's worth being able to get UU on Turn 2 if you need it.
- If your opponent plays a blue source and passes, you don't want to run a Counterbalance into their Spell Pierce, so you can spin on upkeep and still play another fetch.
- If your opponent plays their own Top, you can leave up UU to counter their Counterbalance.
- If your opponent plays any other spell, you can stick Counterbalance and go to town.
- The Plains is super awkward because you need to hit 4 blue sources to be able to cast CB with backup, so you're better off digging to find a 4th source rather than wasting a land drop on it. What white spells do you care about in this matchup? Council's Judgment? Disenchant?

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Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

Assuming you're on the play (and you mean you do have a CB and CS in hand, not that you have 0), I'd go fetch -> Tundra -> Top, here's my thinking:

- You'll probably have enough time in the mirror to find more fetches when you need them, so it's worth being able to get UU on Turn 2 if you need it.
- If your opponent plays a blue source and passes, you don't want to run a Counterbalance into their Spell Pierce, so you can spin on upkeep and still play another fetch.
- If your opponent plays their own Top, you can leave up UU to counter their Counterbalance.
- If your opponent plays any other spell, you can stick Counterbalance and go to town.
- The Plains is super awkward because you need to hit 4 blue sources to be able to cast CB with backup, so you're better off digging to find a 4th source rather than wasting a land drop on it. What white spells do you care about in this matchup? Council's Judgment? Disenchant?

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I actually meant no UU spells. There's not much much relevant white spells in the mirror unless on the SFM/Mentor creature plan except removal.

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Originally Posted by Varal

I actually meant no UU spells. There's not much much relevant white spells in the mirror unless on the SFM/Mentor creature plan except removal.

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So you have a starting hand of Top, Plains, 3 blue fetches, and what else? If you're on a mull to 5, then yeah you probably want to try and maximize your filtering by going Plains -> Top.

Let's say this is a mulligan to 5, you have the following options:

- Fetch -> blue source -> Top. Pro: You have a Top and UU on the second turn. Con: If you spin the top during upkeep to ensure you find a Counterbalance, you can't cast it until turn 3.
- Plains -> Top. Pro: You still have 3 shuffles left and might as well spin during upkeep because that single W isn't bluffing anything. Con: You won't have UU up until turn 3 or onwards.
- Fetch -> Pass. Pro: You're bluffing a Spell Pierce and maybe your opponent won't cast their own Top? Con: You didn't cast your own Top either.
- Plains -> Pass. Pro: You're playing around Spell Pierce, I guess. Con: Your opponent can just go to town.

The only way you're casting a Counterbalance on Turn 2 is if you just happen to draw into it, so I'd go T1 Plains -> Top, T2 spin Top -> play fetch -> pass, T3 -> fetch and now you have UU and spinning mana open.

I think you're completely missing the heart of the question. What's really being asked is what is worth more: the ability to have UU for a potential counterbalance/counterspell topdeck or an extra shuffle effect with top online. The odds that you draw balance or counterspell on your second turn is not that high. As such, the extra shuffle effect is almost certainly worth more as a guaranteed way to let you see more cards to make sure you find exactly what you need. It's not even clear that casting a balance on turn 2 is even going to be a safe play for you--if they counter it and follow up with their own balance you might have just lost.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

I think you're completely missing the heart of the question. What's really being asked is what is worth more: the ability to have UU for a potential counterbalance/counterspell topdeck or an extra shuffle effect with top online. The odds that you draw balance or counterspell on your second turn is not that high. As such, the extra shuffle effect is almost certainly worth more as a guaranteed way to let you see more cards to make sure you find exactly what you need. It's not even clear that casting a balance on turn 2 is even going to be a safe play for you--if they counter it and follow up with their own balance you might have just lost.

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That's imho not exactly right. Because first you must ask yourself if you want to spin Top on your upkeep. The upside is obviously that if you don't and find Counterspell or Counterbalance you can play it directly.
If you think about topdecking one of the two mentioned spells however, you should also think that the chance of having a miracle on top of your library is the same or higher (depending if you're playing more Entreat the Angels than Counterspell). So, if Top resolves and you just have 3 lands in your hand left there is actually no reason to not spin in your next upkeep.
The real question is if you want UUU at turn three or not. The way I see it, most players will be very slow in the mirror, building up lands and not just slamming stuff into open mana. In current lists, one open fetch can represent anything from Redblast to Spell Snare or Spell Pierce. Like you said, getting your CB countered for one mana and then they follow up with their own copy is devastating. The only way I'd slam CB T2 into 1 open mana from my opponent is when I have FoW backup. And even then I'll probably spin Top in my upkeep to further build my base instead of getting pierced and deploy CB at somepoint later.
So, from experience, as long as there's mana open, players will be very wary about counterspells (in general, not the actual one), so you should be able to play your lands unmolested for a few turns. And while doing that, you have the most chances of not drawing miracles and/or finding countermagic when you start with Plains and spin Top on your next upkeep.

Is there an ACTUAL way to beat Goblins game 1? I played against a tier 5 list (no Wastelands, no Ports, no Warren Instigator, but everything else pretty much standard) and still lost.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Is there an ACTUAL way to beat Goblins game 1? I played against a tier 5 list (no Wastelands, no Ports, no Warren Instigator, but everything else pretty much standard) and still lost.

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You need to assemble the "combo" by stacking Terminus, then Entreat the card under. Even if Goblins sandbags a Matron or Ringleader, it would take some turns for Goblins to setup post-Terminus. It's absolutely imperative for you to Entreat Immediately after a Terminus/Pyroclasm.

seriously? with 4 StP and 4 Terminus and 2+ Snapmage?

Nowaday there is even Mentor for chump block and Izzet Staticaster for the tokens (be them Goblin, Elementals or Monks)

How comes that Goblin is s threath?

Have you actually played against Goblins? They recover from removal (mass or spot) extremely quickly.

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Originally Posted by Poron

seriously? with 4 StP and 4 Terminus and 2+ Snapmage?

Nowaday there is even Mentor for chump block and Izzet Staticaster for the tokens (be them Goblin, Elementals or Monks)

How comes that Goblin is s threath?

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Have you actually tested the matchup, like... At all?

I play 1 Null Rod in SB for those matchups where I don't need CB.

mud
goblin
dnt

with Containment Priest it's usually more than enough to keep them from using Vial.

Without it, they're just a worse Merfolk..

I also play 1 Monastery Monk and 1 Izzet Staticaster and the usual 4+4 white removals..

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Originally Posted by Poron

I play 1 Null Rod in SB for those matchups where I don't need CB.

mud
goblin
dnt

with Containment Priest it's usually more than enough to keep them from using Vial.

Without it, they're just a worse Merfolk..

I also play 1 Monastery Monk and 1 Izzet Staticaster and the usual 4+4 white removals..

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You play NULL ROD in your SENSEI'S DIVINING TOP deck?

:eek::confused:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

You need to assemble the "combo" by stacking Terminus, then Entreat the card under. Even if Goblins sandbags a Matron or Ringleader, it would take some turns for Goblins to setup post-Terminus. It's absolutely imperative for you to Entreat Immediately after a Terminus/Pyroclasm.

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G1 would you ever FoW something that's not an Aether Vial? Like, I found myself FoW'ing Goblin Lackeys and Goblin Ringleaders when I couldn't counter them with CB/remove them before they could generate too much value.

Obviously I side Top out when I play Null Rod.

It's the obly way to have a 55% win (like) against MUD.

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Originally Posted by Poron

Obviously I side Top out when I play Null Rod.

It's the obly way to have a 55% win (like) against MUD.

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So, why not playing pithing needle, that do better for less mana?

Because MUD is always more common and they can play both Ugin and Emrakul through lands and Kuldotha, Metalworker and so on.

That's why I also side in Blood Moon.

Same side in against 12 posts. It's a sort of "desperate" SB, to have some chance against terrible matchup.

Before I was using Cursed Totem for Elves and MUD but Grim Monolith and everything else brought to Ugin way too soon to deal with it seriously.

so.. Null Rod and Blood Moon for MUD and 12 posts

What the hell does Null Rod hit against 12Post? They're not using Top as often as we are, nor is Top as crucial to their plan as it is ours.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

What the hell does Null Rod hit against 12Post? They're not using Top as often as we are, nor is Top as crucial to their plan as it is ours.

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My guess would be candelabra and expedition map, both key pieces in their game plan.

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Originally Posted by decan

Please leave this forum. you are definitely not qualified to post here

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That kind of comment is not constructive at all. Poron is just trying to think outside the box and offer suggestions, you can vehemently disagree with him, but there is no need to insult him.

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Originally Posted by skyout

My guess would be candelabra and expedition map, both key pieces in their game plan.

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By the time we draw that Null Rod (assuming we don't auto-mull to it), it's too late and they're already got 2 Cloudposts on board and one in hand, as well as a Tropical Island to cast Repeal. Sure, Candelabra is a nice target to hit, but I'd rather use the 1-mana Pithing Needle since it works against multiple decks, good and bad MUs, not just a narrow range. And it doesn't shut down our best card.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

What the hell does Null Rod hit against 12Post? They're not using Top as often as we are, nor is Top as crucial to their plan as it is ours.

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Expedition Map, which is the only thing that gets them out of Blood Moon lock

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

By the time we draw that Null Rod (assuming we don't auto-mull to it), it's too late and they're already got 2 Cloudposts on board and one in hand, as well as a Tropical Island to cast Repeal. Sure, Candelabra is a nice target to hit, but I'd rather use the 1-mana Pithing Needle since it works against multiple decks, good and bad MUs, not just a narrow range. And it doesn't shut down our best card.

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In that matchup is much more important to look for Blood Moon. I play 1 or 2 Tutors for those matchups infact..

pretty much to have a chance.

Null Rod? You absolutely have to be trolling here. There are a lots other ways to beat 12 post and MUD other than that.

99% of the reasons why I am here is to learn..