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Bruh
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I don't know how to respond to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Dromoka should just be Sigarda.
Also, all walkers and no Standstill makes Matt a dull boy.
That list looks definitely weird, and that means that it is amazing. I bet that it's very fun to pilot.
Anyways, I have been playing a good lot of PW lists after Arian posted his in June/July and I have to say that I don't think a heavy PW approach is a winning one. It's the funniest and most enjoyable approach to the archetype in my opinion, but my conclusion is that the core of the deck only needs a "supporting" PW (new nissa) that improves what we do well already (drop giant dudes and recur dead giant dudes).
We only want *multiple* walkers against miracles basically, because against creatures rhino tusk Dromoka titans are the best already, but even then I noticed that they can (and will) win out of nowhere due to entreat or the infinite answers they have to literally everything in their colors.
The best walker against miracles in my experience was big Sorin (and Vraska, which I also played..........) because he could kill jace.
But after a lot of play testing, I eventually established that the most "unfair" card against miracles is tsunami, it literally is the only sort of I win button in the late game because it literally wins on the spot. They have to have mana open on the spot or otherwise they can't remove the effects of the sorcery afterwards. Instead planeswalkers are slow (except new nissa, again) and give them time to entreat or find something to remove our threats which is very very annoying.
I played every good PW in junk colors but the only one I'm currently running is nissa because she instantly gives a 5/5 haste (good against control and gives a protective 5/5 against smasher and goyf) and can regrow a dude, the girl is underrated in my opinion.
E. I can't talk about blue walkers, jace seems very good in the control match up.
Walkers are a trap, you're playing a GSZ deck. Play to your strengths. If you so desperately want a walker, take a catch all like Karn or Ugin.
Diversity in threats is a strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
I wholeheartedly agree, but note that I was talking about a *heavy* PW approach. I like the idea of strong creatures, necessary rhino life gain AND a support role oriented planeswalker. Nissa is our girl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
GSZ is the reason to play the deck, and the reason I will always play Dromoka over the baneslayers or the non green titans. Walkers are not fetchable and shall not be the main focus of the deck, just a happy little bonus that improves the consistency of what we do well already.
Now the real question is if Atraxa changes this.
I still have never been impressed by Rhinos. I can see the use of a single one, for a threat/stabilizer that's cheaper than Thragtusk and carries a Sword well because of trample. But running more than that just looks like it's dedicating a ton of slots to matchups we already win, and losing out on removal and card advantage for the matchups we actually have trouble with.
I also agree, infact I am no longer playing more than 2 max rhinos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I've been working on an Abzan Nicfit list with a friend of mine for a while now. Could use some constructive criticism about how to finish off the deck. Please note that the numbers that show ranges (ie, 0-3 or 1-4) are places where I'd like some notes about what direction would be best. I may be under or over 60 in the MD or under/over 15 in the main.
It seems to me that this deck should a high win %, if built properly, against any fair deck. But, there's a dozen decks that do that. How do we build this main and sb such that it breaks ever versus control and wins in the post board. How do we build it such that it breaks even in post board games versus combo?
Cmc 0
1 Dryad Arbor
Cmc 1
4 Veteran Explorer
3-4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1-3 Sensei's Divining Top
0-3 Swords to Plowshares vs Path to Exile
Cmc2
3-4 Abrupt Decay
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grim Flayer
1 Qasali Pridemage
0-1 Gaddock Teeg
Cmc 3
1 Courser or Kruphix
1-2 Eternal Witness*
1 Tireless Tracker
0-1 Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse
2-3 Pernicious Deed
0-2 Liliana of the Veil
0-1 Toxic Deluge
0-1 Kitchen Finks
Cmc 4
2-3 Siege Rhino
0-1 Huntmaster of the Fells
0-1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Cmc 5
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
0-1 Thragtusk
0-1 The Gitrog Monster
LANDS
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1-2 Plains
0-1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
Sideboard
0-2 Slaughter Games vs 0-2 lost legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needles
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Trinisphere*
2 Duress
1 Null Rod
As a side note, I've been toying with the red splash idea. Mostly, this was because of the idea that our combo matchup can be so bad and running slaughter games can be a life saver if you can get to 4 mana. Blood moon has also been a possibility.
Recently I saw a list, that I wasn't huge fan of, that had two intereating card choices. It splashed blue for Atraxa, Praetor's Voice and Leovold, Emissary of Trest
I appreciate your thoughts.
I mostly have questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
Why 4 Forest?
Why a Reclamation Sage in the SB when you already run a Qasali Pridemage in the MB?
Why have spotremoval in the SB, to what end?
In general - what's your thinking behind the odd choices? What do you think they do that you need to improve certain MUs?
Your list seems rather unfocused.
I would think that 8 walkers demands some number of Oath of Nissa. That way you don't have to have a fragile landbase to support the tougher-to-cast ones.
Two things I noticed from a glance- running Dryad Arbor and Deluge/Deed are non-bos, you'll wasteland yourself to clean up the board. And you can't really afford to run Gaddock Teeg mainboard in a deck that runs 4x GSZ. It's a fine sideboard card, but turning off all of your Zeniths is a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
Not sure I like Gitrog in your five-drop slot. I mean sure, it generates card advantage on a 6/6 body for 5, but I'd rather have Nissa, Vital Force in that slot. It's not a zenith target, but all of her abilities are relevant. Grim Flayer is some interesting spice though- but I don't see the appeal as a Zenith target personally, which is going to be how you'll get it more often than not with it being a one-of. I'd rather naturally curve into a flayer to set up your next few draws rather than Zenith for one.
And I dont think a Junk Fit list breaks even against combo unless you put like 4x Thoughtseize, 4x Hymn and 2-3x Surgical Extractions in your board. And even then you still lose to the good ol' Turn 1 Emrakul that can still happen on the draw.
Arbor + Deed/Deluge is fine as long as you run Meren and Diabolic Intent.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfulcake
All the above stuff is at least slightly questionable.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
You only want Dryad Arbor if you're playing Meren.
Play 4 Cabal Therapy unless you want to lose to STP and combo decks.
You need 2 tops minimum, run 3 unless you have a good reason. There aren't any good substitutes in Abzan colours (Library is okay but don't run more than 1)
You need some number of Swords/Paths, or you lose to Lands and other decks that make big creatures. Run Path if you consider your clock to be more important than your DnT matchup.
No need for 4 decays unless Miracles/Delver is absolutely everywhere. You have Swords to make up your removal numbers.
Grim Flayer doesn't really do what the deck needs. If you want an agressive CA guy, play Tireless Tracker.
Teeg is fine, swap between side and main depending on your meta.
Courser is pretty unimpressive unless you see way too much Burn.
1 Witness is enough, you have Zenith.
Liliana is pretty crap without more graveyard interaction. Therapy is not enough.
Deluge can swap in for the third Deed if you run lots of noncreature permanents and are more worried about midrange than aggro.
Finks are a sideboard option if you're facing down a ton of fast aggro.
Rhino is pretty much straight up better than Huntmaster if you have access to white mana.
Titania is awful unless you're building around her at least a bit (i.e. running Sylvan Safekeeper).
Always play Thragtusk unless you have a good reason not to.
Gitrog is a 6/6 and doesn't do much else. If you see a ton of Eldrazi, swap him for Glissa. If you don't, just cut him, he's not good anywhere else.
A few others have hit important points, I would like to point out further that you shouldn't be considering Lily of the Veil. She's not great in Junk Fit, because you don't want to be discarding threats and you're not running cards that synergize with her like Modern Abzan does (Lingering Souls, etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
Lily is better suited for decks like Punishing Fit (or even Sneak with Groves/PFire) because it synergizes with PFire when you're plusing her.
Solid advice. I would also like to point out 3 Deed is definitely the sweet spot. The card is too good to cut down to 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
the list was thrown together but oath was considered. deed makes it lose a lot of its allure.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
As for the viability of the deck, I am not hopeful. I am just biding time while leo and atraxa lose price online so I can work on more competitive lists.
The downside of Oath dying to Deed is somewhat mitigated by the fact that it replaces itself. The rest of the text is really just gravy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
I didn't think of the Meren/Arbor synergy, that does offset the issue. Plus I can't argue with the value train of Meren ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Admittedly, I just really don't like Dryad Arbor as a card in general, I've played it a few times and was never happy to see the damn thing. I understand the upsides as a free elvish mystic and GSZ for 0, but I think Nic Fit has plenty of adequate ramp already.
Looking at the "current" Scapewish versions of the deck (e.g. this and this) I want to say that the manabase looks terrible! How can this be consistent? I tested a few games and afterwards did just some random starthand peeking - the number of times the starthand lacked reasonable mana was too high!
I do not think that playing a PFire package is worth to drop ALL fetchlands - but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Additionally I want to state that the whole Burning Wish package is a ton of fun but in my experience just helps to improve G1 against Miracles by providing Access to Slaughter Games.
I do really think that the deck needs a rework, and I'm planning to come up with one.
Are there any more recent approaches to tackle the current meta (especially including Eldrazis) with this deck?
Burning Wish also lets you run 5 virtual copies of Scapeshift while not having your hand clogged with them anywhere near as frequently.Quote:
Originally Posted by emuhell
Running Punishing Fire is IMO not worth it, mainly because it's at its best against the decks you should already beat, and it ruins the manabase pretty badly.
IMO you should drop the Groves for a more stable manabase, and run Kolaghan's Command in those slots instead. If you see a lot of Eldrazi, you're probably screwed no matter what because Warping Wail counters all your good spells, but multiple Thragtusks are probably your best bet.
Scapeshift is barely competitive in modern and the back up plan is not realistic.
I guess you meant to say it's barely competitive in Legacy... well we are not working on Nic Fit because of its competitivity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
I think that the deck should be Nic Fit with an "Oops, I win" in it - just like SneakFit currently is.
EDIT: of course we want to raise the competitivity.
I think his point is that the card Scapeshift isn't good enough for Modern at the moment because of the speed of the format (TitanBreach is the better deck by performance). Legacy is considerably faster than it was when Scapewish was strong. The reason people are moving to different builds is because Scapeshift requires you to be at least at turn 5 (usually much later) in order to end the game. With the way the format looks, this is too late generally since the list also has to play many lands to guarantee the consistency of Scapeshift.Quote:
Originally Posted by emuhell
Scapeshift is a very powerful effect which does reliably end games. However it has almost no utility unless it's scoring lethal, and it applies pressure to the mana base pretty badly.
- You have ~2 cards you never ever want to draw (Valakuts)
- You have another ~1 card that's completely useless unless you're going off (Scapeshift)
- Burning Wish is pretty slow given the current speed of Legacy
- Jund doesn't have a particularly good backup beatdown plan, especially when your manabase is strained so you can't play Punishing Fire safely.
- A lot of hate that combo decks get to ignore is good against us. Namely, Wasteland.
I don't think there's a way to get Scapeshift to a fast enough speed to combo off competitively against most enemies. That means we're going to need to go down a more midrange plan with the combo as a backup. I'm tempted to say that zero Scapeshifts main is the right choice, and just playing a Burning Wish midrange/control deck most of the time.
Played Sneaky-fit yesterday at the LGS, with pretty much a stock list except I subbed scooze for tusk, and a 3rd top for 2nd DRS. 3 Tops has always felt like the right number for me.
Played Miracles (2-0) punishing fire vs jace and gideon was just back breaking
Infect: (0-2) mulled multiple times both games to find business, and never felt like I was in it in either game.
Bug delver (2-1) was tight all 3 games but a resolved sneak is basically gg.
U/B Reanimator: (1-2) Collective Brutality is a beating vs all our GSZable answers. One of the games saw this play Kill my DRS take my GSZ and drop a Gbanned in the yard, so broken, that needs the ban hammer.
Thoughts; I never saw Meren, I like her but I believe I sided her out every match, as she is slow, and if they do bring in Yard hate, at best it is a 3/4 for 4, Maybe a Tireless Tracker to fill that spot? Also I like Sidisi but with no way to tutor for it, it just seems like a 5 mana tutor. To the Slaughter was fantastic vs reanimator, and zombie fishes, I am going to comtemplate playing a 2nd in the board. I am definitely going to be bringing out this list again.
Please, don't question my loyalty to making this deck better.Quote:
Originally Posted by emuhell
Sneak attack will likely win you the game but it also inherently works with your deck of large creatures and its acceptable to jam it on 4 mana.
Agreed with most you say, albeit I think titanshift is more consistent than breach but that is sacrificed for a 1 turn faster. Another thread. hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
That's a spot on analysis. I fear nic fit is simply too weak a burning wish deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love scapeshift but I know it needs something huge to be playable in legacy and I know if that happens and made legal in modern, I will lose scapeshift in modern and that's not a good trade off imho.
I think Rubble's thought process on tsunami is correct but making it resolve is the uphill battle. (not giving him credit for tsunami since it wasn't him, just good thinking)
Collective Brutality is great. I guess it's another point in favor of discard spells, since Therapy and Thoughtseize go under it.
To The Slaughter is great, although I'm currently leaning towards Pithing Needle in that slot. Still works against lands, Miracles and Griselbrand decks, but easier on the mana and helps vs DnT instead of helping kill Goyfs and Anglers.
Again, this is an issue of speed. We simply don't have enough room for all the cards we need in Scapewish to go off quickly AND not die. There's something to be said about theorycrafting a list that focuses completely on the ramp and combo, but it likely will not have any other plan and this is a format where looping Wastelands exists and Blood Moon is more relevant than ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
The other issue I see is that Scapewish was strongest in an era of RUG Delver, Maverick, Miracles, Goblins, and Sneak Show. Shardless and Deathblade allowed it to stay strong for a while but Miracles and Shardless are the only decks that survived from that era.
Collective Brutality is a real card. Anyone who is thinking about it should give it a try. It's seriously broken.
You can ask Arian how he feels about To the Slaughter. He was very happy with it.
Well, I had typed up a really long tournament report from my weekly last night, but I didn't copy it before submitting and the forum logged me out. Here's the short version because I'm not typing that all over again.
For reference, here is my list:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Siege Rhino
1 Primeval Titan
1 Grave Titan
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Nissa, Vital Force
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Silvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
SB:
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Krosan Grip
1 Karakas
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Liliana, the Last Hope (Usually is Engineered Plague or Dread of Night, wanted to try it out)
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
R1: Loss to Tin Fins (1-2)
Game one I'm able to beat down before they can put together their combo through Deathrite. Game two I whiff on therapy and he combos. Game three I hit Goryo's Vengeance on therapy but he just rips another one blind off the top and wins.
R2: Win vs. Pros-Bloom (2-0)
Game one he isn't able to assemble the combo through decay and random beats including a Rhino. If he hadn't ramped me with his own Veteran Explorer I might have lost. Game two I disrupt him long enough to get Kaya and Liliana going with Tracker for attacks and close out the game.
R3: Win vs Miracles (2-0)
Game one my opponent invests early in Venser + Karakas but I'm able to disrupt it with Deed + Swords. He's fairly dry at this point and I test him with a series of bombs (GSZ into Rhino into Grave Titan). Titan closes out the game in two turns. Game two my opponent floods on counterbalances early but I'm able to keep him off the lock thanks to Deed and Therapy. Nissa does serious, serious work alongside Volrath's Stronghold. My opponent exhausts a lot of resources fighting off Nissa - several Terminus and a Swords and a Vendillion Clique on chump duty. I end up winning with Liliana, Rhino, Nissa on board and tracker in my hand. Silvan library was insane this game.
R4: Win vs. Grixis Painter (2-0)
Game one is super grindy. Kaya faced down Tezzeret at one point. My opponent was barely hurt by Deed wiping out something like 6 or 7 of his permanents. Eventually I get there with Rhino and Primeval Titan. My opponent says he could have won but played too cautiously, so I might have gotten lucky.
Game two is similar to game one. Deed, Pridemage, Eternal Witness + Stronghold get me there through Tezzeret, Daretti, and multiple smuggler's copters.
Overall I wouldn't change the deck at all other than the trial Liliana in the board and maybe Dryad Arbor. Arbor didn't feel necessary vs. Miracles and I don't have a lot of backbreaking turn 3 plays to ramp into in my build. The deck felt flexible, powerful, and like it had an answer to almost anything the opponent was doing. Obviously combo is still a weak spot, but we do have tools to make it a game.
My one question-mark right now is Aluren. How do you guys board for Aluren, and how have you typically beaten it (how do the games play out)? There's been a lot of Aluren in my local meta and I've been able to dodge it so far.
Also, and this is just a thought I've been toying with - could we theoretically cut 1 land, 1 threat, and 2 whatever cards for 4 Gitaxian Probes?
Questions? Thoughts? Comments?
Almost any modal card is good since they're letting you do multiple things for one card, but Collective Brutality is like a super Command, since you can do three things with it instead of just. And you can do it on turn 2 without a downside in the right deck. Card is nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
Also not sure how I feel about To The Slaughter, 3 mana over 2 mana is relevant. A lot of the time it's going to get rid of a creature, so its just an overcosted edict, but being able to kill a planeswalker as well is pretty neat. What matchups is it good against though? It's nice against a Marit Lage or an Emrakul, but I'd rather Blood Moon my opponent for the first and I'd probably still lose to the second with a To the Slaughter in hand anyway.
As someone who has played Scapewish off and on for about 3-4 years and won an IQ during the hayday of Cruise with it, I unfortunately agree. I have an undying love for shift, I have it pimped out in modern (where it is not a good deck right now) and I have to admit that it is just too dang clunky/underpowered for legacy. I moved away from Nic Fit for that reason, Shift was the only version I liked given it could actually close games quick. Now with these sneaky fit lists floating around (praise be to Arianrhod and friends) I wanna give Nic Fit another go. Just bought into it on mtgo so lets see how it goes :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
I like the idea but the deck has to be fine tuned:Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
- Not enough island to my taste. Jace is a damned gigolo...
- Not sure you can tank long enough against Drazi with that setup. Some combination of Strix / SCM might be needed or other ideas to be assessed.
- Leovold + Teeg ? I feel there is a bit of overlap, here.
- Ishkana is good to very good in a BUG shell (according to my testing).
- 1 copy of Perilous Research somewhere? So much juice with BUG in general.
I don't like lotv outside of PF builds, personally. Also with Atraxa, does master bio become more interesting?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
To the Slaughter was actually primarily for Miracles and Lands, where they have a single threat to answer. It's specifically for decks with a single threat. It never comes in against any creature deck. We have better tools for small creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfulcake
I beg to differ. Ramp is the first thing people tend to skip on, and often in favor of CMC >= 5 cards. That's just silly. Heck, looking at what we came up with for the SE version of the deck even my list is still a ramp slot short of the mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfulcake
The thing is - the ramp cards we do play usually also function as removal bait, ensuring our opponent doesn't have the removal anymore when the actual threat comes down. Or rather, that's how I play out my games. Feed my opponent a DRS or 2 or whatever little crud I have, then overpower them with a Tireless Tracker (since they're now fresh out of Bolts/ADs). Advance my board state, and at some point go "Rhino, Rhino, Rhino".
I personally find the ramp thing not really all that great as I don't find that I am trying to ramp stuff out so much as survive until I can cast Rhinos and such. I think Vet and DRS are really the best ramp by far as Vet stops ground pounders from attacking and synergies with cabal super well and DRS isn't a dead draw late game like other ramp spells. While they both have the potential to just straight ramp I find lower CMC spells are much better being interactive and letting us get to the late game rather than try to accelerate to it. After all this not to say ramp is bad but that I personally would rather be playing more interactive spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
You totally missed the point, both on what skipping on ramp detains and on the functions that ramp cards fulfill. Skipping on ramp means as much as "cut down the number of DRS they play". And the list you posted suggests otherwise, I might add.Quote:
Originally Posted by mstephenson
Yes, I agree but have you ever got the oppnent to sac a planeswalker?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
I will agree that the suntitan is bad and should just be a meren as it was mediocre as hell when I played it this weekend and that the sorin could stand to be something cheaper I am not really sure what though maybe just have it be the Garruk Relentless and have another card in the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon