[Deck] Zoo

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Hey David, were you a Sligh player back when Type 1 was popular? I remember that The Mana Drain adepts would mention you as an example of how an unpowered Sligh deck could beat fully powered Keeper decks. Not sure if it's you, or how you did it, but big props if so. :)

My personal preference has evolved from the Fast Zoo builds to the Big Zoo builds, but I think in modern Legacy, if you're going to play with 12 fetchlands, lots of burn, and "bad" late game creatures like Goblin Guide, you're going to want the early damage potential of Steppe Lynx. "Moderate" Zoo builds will often run Loam Lion or Kird Ape over Steppe Lynx, but none of them opt for any of the (10+ year old) 2-powered one-drops you mentioned as alternatives to Lynx, since creature power creep has left them in the dust. All of them lack the explosive power of Lynx, and neither of them are as consistent as Ape/Lion (smaller ass, dependent on opponent's manabase/life total, etc.). If you want to consider a more normal Zoo build, you gain access to Qasali Pridemage and a few copies of Knight of the Reliquary, but if your looking to race, I'd just sleeve up those Lynxes and start burning face.

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I did run Sligh in T1 a few years back. Good times. Legacy seems like a broader format now.

I ran the above list at a local 15 man tournament this weekend. Beat NO-RUG, Goblins, Big Zoo and drew with Bant.

Very happy with the card choices. Would cut the 3rd mountain for a 13th sac land if I had it. The red blasts and grudges sat on the side as the Merfolk and U/W control decks did not do well. I could see cutting a pyroblast for a 2nd searing blaze, otherwise I really liked the 75.

So Caleb has shown that Blue Zoo is possible. Has anyone tried a Dark Zoo lately? Dark Confidant seems like a pretty solid card to get into Black for. Not sure if there is anything else in Black worth running, but it's possible. Anyone else try it yet?

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Originally Posted by CorpT

So Caleb has shown that Blue Zoo is possible. Has anyone tried a Dark Zoo lately? Dark Confidant seems like a pretty solid card to get into Black for. Not sure if there is anything else in Black worth running, but it's possible. Anyone else try it yet?

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I looked into that last year but discarded the idea (as did others). Objectively, you get a better deck, but you're straining your manabase. Ostensibly, Bob allows you to refill your hand quickly, but I'm not sure this is the right metagame for it with lots of Bobs, Mystics, and Cliques making cheap removal spells more popular. Another bummer is that it's vulnerable to the same sweepers that Zoo traditionally is weak too, unlike other sources of card advantage (Jace, Elspeth). You can argue that in some sense, being forced to play a 4th color is straining on your manabase just like running 4-drops are.

If I were to go back to Dark Zoo though, I'd probably want to play more burn to take advantage of the card advantage from Bob.

Anyone have an opinion on REB vs. Choke in the sideboard? The former seems much better against Merfolk and most blue combo (Painter's Stone), but the latter much better against slower Standstill decks, Team America, and others.

reb is for show and tell
choke is for uw batterskull and landstill
teeg is a beast, play him in the main.
grudge is teck vs batterskull and landstill, also grip
play lots of blasts for show and tell, cuz it's your only hope if they have hive mind

Any thoughts on choke vs grip in the board? Does choke win the u/w stoneforge mu? Im considering removing grips for chokes.

Capitalization and punctuation are absolutely required when posting on these boards. Unless you're writing a haiku, use them. -zilla

You guys might want to give it a try. The mana base is the hardest part about it, but Black opens you up to some great sideboard options and makes you very solid against some of the previously tougher matchups.

This is what I ran tonight:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

21 Land

It's like a Sylvan that attacks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CorpT

You guys might want to give it a try. The mana base is the hardest part about it, but Black opens you up to some great sideboard options and makes you very solid against some of the previously tougher matchups.

This is what I ran tonight:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

21 Land

It's like a Sylvan that attacks.

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Can I see your manabase? Dark Zoo is something I want to explore at some point, although right now, I might be going with an entirely different deck. I do think I experiment with Dark Zoo before I played Blue Zoo though, since the best reason to run Blue (in Zoo) doesn't actually require blue mana (Mental Misstep).

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Can I see your manabase? Dark Zoo is something I want to explore at some point, although right now, I might be going with an entirely different deck. I do think I experiment with Dark Zoo before I played Blue Zoo though, since the best reason to run Blue (in Zoo) doesn't actually require blue mana (Mental Misstep).

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Well, honestly, I was hoping to see some other ideas for a mana base first before ruining them with mine. Not that I think mine is the greatest or anything, but I'd like some unbiased ideas. If you have some ideas, scratch them down before looking at my mess.

In white text below.

So...

It has varied a lot. It's easily the most difficult part. My basic idea is that I want Taigas and Scrublands to do the heavy lifting. I have nothing that needs BW or RG together. The other necessity is a lot of Red. The color/land relevant spells are:
Nacatl: RGW
Kird Ape: RG
Lightning Helix: RW
Qasali Pridemage: GW

After that, it's a lot of Red for Chains, Bolts and Grim. Thus:

3 Taiga
2 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath

I think that's close to what I'll be running at GenCon. Subject to change if anyone has a better idea.

Here's my suggestion (not tested):

2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Badlands
11 Fetches
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain

I think two black producing lands are enough for such a small splash. Basics can be very important.

I think part of that depends on your sideboard too. I would probably run 2x Scrubland before 1x Badlands though. Scrubland just seems more important because it goes so much better with Taiga. I'm also running more White than some with Lightning Helix and SFM.

The problem I found with basics was just drawing them. There were few things worse than an opening hand with basics that were off-color. That's why I went with such a high Fetch count. Getting that first turn perfect land is very important.

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Originally Posted by CorpT

I think part of that depends on your sideboard too. I would probably run 2x Scrubland before 1x Badlands though. Scrubland just seems more important because it goes so much better with Taiga. I'm also running more White than some with Lightning Helix and SFM.

The problem I found with basics was just drawing them. There were few things worse than an opening hand with basics that were off-color. That's why I went with such a high Fetch count. Getting that first turn perfect land is very important.

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I think it might just be worthwhile to go with no basics if you need to support four colors.

Especially if your basic is a mountain, since that is absolutely useless against Blood Moon. If you let the Wastelock engine get online, you've probably lost anyway (and it isn't super popular). Back to Basics sees some play, but hopefully you'll have enough pressure on board by that point. It's played seldomly enough that I'd take my chances being able to support my color; and besides, even if Back to Basics did resolve, and all you had was a basic Mountain with weak board presence, you've probably still lost.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I think it might just be worthwhile to go with no basics if you need to support four colors.

Especially if your basic is a mountain, since that is absolutely useless against Blood Moon. If you let the Wastelock engine get online, you've probably lost anyway (and it isn't super popular). Back to Basics sees some play, but hopefully you'll have enough pressure on board by that point. It's played seldomly enough that I'd take my chances being able to support my color; and besides, even if Back to Basics did resolve, and all you had was a basic Mountain with weak board presence, you've probably still lost.

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That's a good point. I was planing to run Surgical Extraction in the board anyway. Back to Basics would be bad, but not the worst. Blood Moon would be... pretty tragic.

5-3 last night at the SCG Legacy Open in Pittsburgh, coming back from a 0-2 start. My list was a modified Sullivan Zoo.

4x Arid Mesa
1x Forest (my 61st card - didn't want to lose Apes and Lions to a Wasted Taiga)
3x Plateau
4x Taiga
4x Wasteland
3x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills

4x Goblin Guide
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Kird Ape
4x Loam Lion
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Wild Nacatl

2x Fireblast
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
1x Sylvan Library

23 lands, 27 1-drops, 5 2-drops, 4 3-drops (technically 1-drops when Suspended), and 2 6-drops/freebies (I did hardcast Fireblast once for the win). I went for the fastest Zoo I could muster, Mental Misstep be damned (4 Mental Missteps versus 27 1-drops...not too good for the Missteps!).

Round 1: 1-2 against Affinity. Won Game 2 off a sided Qasali Pridemage on his first Master of Etherium. Lost Game 3 when I had him down to 1 off of a Goblin Guide and Tarmogoyf (he had a Chalice at 1 on turn 2, and then nothing for a while after I wasted one of his two lands and he didn't get another land forever).
Round 2: 0-2 against Reanimator. It's Reanimator...what can Zoo do against Blazing Archon reanimated twice in Game 1 and a Sphinx that was protected from Path to Exile by a Mental Misstep?
Round 3: 2-0 against Painter. Painter isn't so strong when the Servant gets destroyed by each of the 14 main deck burn spells I ran, and Game 2's opening hand has three Wastelands and all three destroy his first three land drops while I never missed a land drop and he did.
Round 4: No idea what this opponent played. He showed up late for a game loss, mulled to 5, and then conceded and dropped. Pretty fast win...won before I even played a land.
Round 5: 2-0 against Merfolk. Turn 1 unanswered Lavamancer Game 1 kept his board clear, and a hard cast Fireblast won that game. Game 2 was a bit more epic. Got him to 7. Swung in with a fat Goyf and an online Loam Lion. He popped Relic to clear the yards, making Goyf a 0/1. After Relic, I tap my Taiga and Plateau for RR, and sac them to Fireblast him down to 3 and make Goyf a 2/3 again and bring Loam Lion down to 1/1. Following the Fireblast, he attempts to Submerge both my creatures...only to realize I have no Forest now to make Submerge free.
Round 6: 0-2 against Hive Mind (AJ Sacher). It was Hive Mind. That's all I need to say.
Round 7: 2-1 against Team Italia. Game 1, I get mana screwed. Two lands in my opening hand, pretty good. First dual gets Wasted, basic Forest gets Vindicated. I draw 1 more fetch the entire game. Game 2 was a good back and forth, but he lost in the end. Game 3 he got mana screwed.
Round 8: 2-1 against Burn (splash black for Bob and green for Goyf). This was actually a hard match. The deck was surprisingly solid. He won game 1 off a Price of Progress. Game 2, he drops a fetch and cracks it for a Taiga and burns me. I Waste the Taiga, he never draws another land. Game 3 I got him to 8 and I was at 4. I Bolt him down to 5, tap another Taiga (or Plateau?) for R, sac two lands and Fireblast him to 1. In response to Fireblast, he taps out for Price of Progress - I got 2 nonbasics left in play. Thankfully 1 was a Wasteland, so I Wasted my own Taiga to take no damage from Price and use the floating R to Chain him for the win.

Nice work. It got me thinking. Is there a good reason to still run Pridemage? Looking at the top decks, the only real issue is going to be Batterskulls and Jitte from UW Stoneblade. Worth giving up some utility for some speed there? It seems like it might be.

I was watching the Legacy MOCS on MODO and saw a Dark Zoo list that seems like it was playing along those lines. Fast aggro and a little disruption for the Reanimator/Hive Mind match ups.

BTW, I tested extensively against Reanimator the other day and one thing I learned is that you cannot tap out if you think they're going to Reanimate Jin-Gitaxis. Obviously it's going to happen some times, but if they draw 7, the game is over. You're really just hoping to catch them without a Misstep before they can draw with him. So save up Path mana if at all possible.

Trying this list on MODO now. Very, very fast.

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
4 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
3 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kird Ape

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plateau
1 Scrubland
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
2 Bayou

I like your list CorpT. Have you tried Wasteland?

It's a time walk against many decks on turn 2. It also boosts the mana base a bit to get Tarmogoyf and Confidant out if needed.

^same can be said with any deck that could potentially run wasteland...

I ran Zoo at a local event yesterday (Die Hard Games in Lincoln, RI). The prize support was awesome as always, 1st: 4 foil Mental Misstep, 2nd: Foil DCI Dark Conifdant, and store credit to the rest of top 8. Only $10 entry fee. 5 rounds of Swiss, cut to top 8, 28 players.

I have been playing a big Zoo variant off and on for the last couple months, but was never in love with it. I would have fast starts that stopped putting unrelenting pressure due to awesome, but slow, cards like Knight and GSZ. I felt like I was playing Bant that traded Blue for Red. Then recently I saw Dan Marsh's list that ran roughly a million one drops and decided this more closely resembles both my play style (I love Red Sligh) and what Zoo needs to do to be competitive in the current environment.

Here is my list:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile

1 Sylvan Library
3 Manamorphose

11 Fetches
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Wasteland

Sideboard: May seem random, but worked surprisingly well.
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Path to Exile
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Shattering Spree
1 Artifact Mutation
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt

A few notes before I begin. The first question is going to be "Wtf Manamorphose in Zoo?". This card is underrated. It fixes mana off of Wasteland or if your lands aren't quite what you need (this was relevant like 3-4 times already), it feeds Grim and pumps Goyf. All while working to add a tad of density to the deck for "free".

Most of the cards in my sideboard were brought in multiple times. Shattering Spree, Null Rod and Crypt never came in, but they were still good to have in there. There is a decent amount of Affinity, MUD and Stax on top of all the other staple artifacts running around in Legacy to justify a shit load of artifact hate.

Round 1: BUG Landstill
I keep a 1 lander on the draw against an unknown deck. I turn one Taiga, Nacatl. I get hit with Wasteland and then my second land gets Wasted as well. Game two I draw like 8 lands pretty quickly and lose. 0-1 start isn't a great way to begin, but I'm here to play Magic and continue on.

Round 2: Sneak and Show
Game one went very quickly. Goblin Guide worked as a spy (as well as a beatdown machine) to reveal enough information about his deck so that I could surmise he was playing Sneak and Show. Game two involves me Wasting one of his Volcanics and it stops him from hitting his third land before he is run over by a small group of 1 drops. After he dies he reveals 2 Firespouts from his hand. Wasteland ftw! I'm on the road to recovery, 1-1.

Round 3: UW Stoneblade
I don't remember the exact details of this match in chronological order. Highlights include: Pathing his Spellstutter Sprite with its counter ability on the stack, killing Stoneforge every time it tutored up Batterskull (I think), Casting Artifact Mutation on a Batterskull (I think he scooped in response)and not casting Lightning Helix on my turn and proceeding to watch him drop Mutavault on his turn to which meant it could now and would be countered by a Sprite (doh!). I won this match making me 2-1.

Round 4: Vial Goblins
I know what he's playing and I like my chances. Thankfully he also doesn't have Vial on turn one in either game. He makes both games very interesting, but I finish him off just before he can stabilize. I am now 3-1 and after looking at standings it looks like I can draw into top 8... except I get paired down so we have to play it out.

Round 5: Deadguy
On his turn two he casts Dark Ritual and I get a look of terror on my face knowing I may see a Phyrexian Obliterator hit the table. Heasks "How mad would you be if drop an Obliterator right now?", I tell him it would be pretty devastating (no path in my hand). Instead he GFTT my Kird Ape and drops a Stoneforge tutoring up Batterskull. While that is a great turn, I'm completely fine with it. On my turn I chain his SFM and drop another guy. The game goes back and forth a bit and we hit a stage where we both have no cards in hand, about 4 lands in play each and no cards in hand. I have a Lone Kird Ape, he has a lone Top on the battlefield. Back to back turns I topdeck Goyfs and it is too much for him to overcome.

Game two. He turn one casts Ritual, Ritual Batterskull. My opening hand is 2 Fetches/Duals, Wasteland, Metamorph, Qasali, Tin Street and PATH! I obvs path the germ. On turn two I cast Qasali over Tin Street because I wanna Metamorph Batterskull. He swords my Qasali (while I am tapped out) and then hymms me the turn after. He hits Tin Street and not Metamorph :P I copy Batterskull. He kills my Germ and drops a Bob soon after. I end step Bolt his Bob and Return Metamorph to my hand. I then replay it as Batterskull. I drop Sylvan Library at 30 lfie, he goes "Oh great, this gonna be like EDH, lose 8, lose 8" hahaha. He returns his Batterskull and casts it the following turn. My top 3 is Helix, Bolt, Nacatl. I lose 8, nuke his Germ and swing for lethal. This was a another fun match.

Top 8:
Round 1: Same guy playing BUG Landstill.
He offers to prize split with me. I like this for two reasons. One, this is a bad match-up and two I assume this is going to lead to him scooping to me so he can leave. I make a joke about King Solomon if I end up winning the Bob. I agree and he gives me the win and leaves with his girlfriend. He is a cool guy, but I'm glad I don't have to lose to him again. I am starving and drive to Burger King and eat. This round really couldn't have worked out better.

Round 2: Andrew Maag playing... BUG Landstill FFFFUUUUUU!
Andrew is a player I respect, he is a good player and a nice guy. I win the dice roll and my opening hand is nuts: Nacatl, Guide x2, Grim, Bolt and 2 Fetches, I keep. I turn one Nacatl (hoping to give him an explosive 8 damage turn 2 if he doesn't have any answers, should I have cast Guide anyway?). Anyway, he answers with Innocent Blood. My next turn I cast Guide and it gets Forced or Misstepped. Second Guide resolves and comes in for 2. He eventually stabilizes and I chip his life down with burn, but he has drawn too many cards and has Counterspells/answers for many of them. He wins the game at 3 life.

Game 2. I don't remember this game very well. I dropped Teeg after a bunch of removal spells ate my earlier threats and then he starts to race me with 2 Factories. I Helix one factory and am winning this war of attrition (we both are close to topdeck mode). I end up getting him to 3 with Kird Ape and Nacatl. He casts Consuming Vapors, bringing him to six. I draw a burn spell and kill him evenly. I don't lose that game without a topdecked burn spell, but it would have made it close.

Game 3. I have a very good opener and keep. He leads with Factory. I lead with Nacatl. He casts a turn 2 Standstill. I Waste his Factory (and another one in my hand). He breaks his own Standstill with Deed. On my turn I drop Qasali and don't destroy deed. I spend my final mana to Chain him in the face and avoid having to discard. On his turn he is forced to pop Deed. I go all in. I cast Nacatl, Kird and then Grim. He missteps Grim (this lets me know he doesn't have another Deed) so I cast another Grim and pass the turn. He cannot recover and dies the next turn.

It is now after 1 a.m. and people want to leave. The other player who made the finals (also playing Zoo, but a different build) offers me the Missteps if he gets the Bob and then we can all go home. That works for me. I end up 5-1 in matches I actually played, 2 Foil Missteps and was very happy with the way the tournament turned out.

Props:
-DHG and Dave for running another great event.
-All of my opponents for being cool guys. I have played my fair share of Magic players that seem more concerned with being douche bags and winning than having fun or even enjoying any sort of friendly conversation. This was not the case with any of my opponents tonight. Many of which were guys I had never met.
-Kird Ape and friends for winning me a bunch of matches.
-Burger King for giving me the "sustenance" to beat Landstill :P
-Myself for losing round one and still splitting in the finals

Slops:
-Burger King for failing to put both Bacon and Cheddar cheese on my Bacon Cheddar Ranch chicken sandwich. They also forgot to give me ketchup #firstworldpains
-I really got nothing else.

In case you care, the decks in the Top 8 were.
One Drop Zoo (Me)
Zoo (midrange I think)
Mono-green Infect
BUG Landstill
BUG Landstill (both creatureless)
Junk
Burn
Bant with red for Nacatl?

For those playing Dark Zoo, isn't Terminate better than PtE? It doesn't accelerate your opponent's manabase early on and cannot be missteped. I generally believe that the "cannot be missteped" argument is worthless in most cases but in a deck like Zoo where your only non-burn removal can be missteped, it is easy for your opponent to save the MM to protect their wall and buy precious time (I play MM in nonblue decks and I usually save it for Nacatles, Grims, and Paths).

Also, if you are using a SFM package in Zoo, isn't SoLaS the best sword availlable next to Jitte? It protects from Exile removal, black removal, gets you health to fuel Library or Bob and grabs you a creature. That's better than drawing a card in most cases since half the deck is about creatures.

Good point for Terminate. PtE is our only removal for fatties: making this slot more resilient to disruption can make the difference. Also,

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Originally Posted by Angelfire

"Manamorphose in Zoo?". This card is underrated. It fixes mana off of Wasteland or if your lands aren't quite what you need (this was relevant like 3-4 times already), it feeds Grim and pumps Goyf. All while working to add a tad of density to the deck for "free".

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Never thought of it, interesting suggestion - and it’s even more promising in 4c Dark Zoo, to fix the mana needed by Confidant and Terminate.

I’m trying something like this (based on CorpT’s list):

3 Terminate
3 Manamorphose
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Thoughtseize

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
1 Loam Lion
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
1 Scrubland
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
2 Bayou

The downside to Terminate (and a few other spells) is the double color requirements. Twice the mana for it doesn't help either. It's a very fine balance between mana cost, color requirements, and Misstepable. I would certainly not be opposed to it though. Few differences:

Path v Terminate:
Terminate doesn't ramp. Very good.
Costs twice as much. This is very relevant against things like Reanimator that require you to destroy the creature before end-step for things like Jin-Gi Taxis.
Terminate can't be Missteped. That's the flipside.
Terminate can't hit Mirran Crusader/Sphinx of the Steel Wind.

I guess my main argument against the ramp issue is that most of the time, if I'm casting removal on something turn 1-2, it probably dies to Chain/Bolt so I'm ok. Those are the turns ramping really hurts. On the other hand, I have the chance to at least cast Path if I have to. Misstep is probably the biggest reason to run Terminate over Path. It really gets old running Paths into Missteps.

My list right now:

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
1-2x Flex slots

4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape

The flex slots vary between land, Helix, Pridemage and Teeg. I like the rest of the deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CorpT

My list right now:

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
1-2x Flex slots

4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape

The flex slots vary between land, Helix, Pridemage and Teeg. I like the rest of the deck.

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8 Kird Apes? I don't think that's the answer to a SFM-Batterskull metagame. Call me crazy...