[Deck] The Rock

Stoneforge Mystic at a first glance seems like a really good idea, until you realize you have to dedicate a lot of space for it to be useful. If you simply run a batterskull, you are wasting 4-5 slots for a strategy that can be neutralized easily enough, and if you run more euquipment, you need a large creature base (and going that way means playing with a bad GW deck, because we'll add in black but we'll have to cut disruptions to free more space for the larger creature base).
We are wasting slots and turns to play with a strategy that may not work because we can't protect it.

On a different subject now: would it be viable to run dark depths + hexmage? of course, the deck would need a lot of changes, but even so.... could it work, or is it simply a waste of time? I was thinking about it because hexmage actually does stuff: kills planeswalkers (jace) and it can kill scavenging ooze in combat (dealing first strike damage then sacrificing itself). Could it be a viable option for sideboard, maybe?

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

Stoneforge Mystic at a first glance seems like a really good idea, until you realize you have to dedicate a lot of space for it to be useful. If you simply run a batterskull, you are wasting 4-5 slots for a strategy that can be neutralized easily enough, and if you run more euquipment, you need a large creature base (and going that way means playing with a bad GW deck, because we'll add in black but we'll have to cut disruptions to free more space for the larger creature base).
We are wasting slots and turns to play with a strategy that may not work because we can't protect it.

On a different subject now: would it be viable to run dark depths + hexmage? of course, the deck would need a lot of changes, but even so.... could it work, or is it simply a waste of time? I was thinking about it because hexmage actually does stuff: kills planeswalkers (jace) and it can kill scavenging ooze in combat (dealing first strike damage then sacrificing itself). Could it be a viable option for sideboard, maybe?

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You forgot that in response to your Hexmage, they could just Wasteland your Dark Depths. Or use Knight to tutor for Wasteland to kill your Dark Depths. Or Swords to Plowshares your token. Or bounce your token with Jace. Or...

I don't think it's worth it, suffice to say :tongue:

-Matt

In testing I've been approaching this with a Slightly different take, removing KoTR and utilizing Liliana of the Veil. The deck's been running similarly to a Team Italia build replacing Red for Green.

Anyone interested in a list?

Hey, here's what I think I am running at SCG Baltimore:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Savannah
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Vindicate
1 Bojuka Bog


SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse


The sideboard is my issue. I'm concerned about the Burn/UR Delver matchup, since you're guaranteed to run into one or the other at these events. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Hey, here's what I think I am running at SCG Baltimore:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Savannah
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Vindicate
1 Bojuka Bog


SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse


The sideboard is my issue. I'm concerned about the Burn/UR Delver matchup, since you're guaranteed to run into one or the other at these events. Thoughts?

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Strange as is sounds, if that's a big concern consider Timely Reinforcements or Kitchen Finks/Spike Feeder.

Sun Droplet OP. Delver and Goose so slow at one damage a turn!

But more seriously, life gain attached to creatures tends to give RUG problems, since they're mostly geared at ending the game early. As such that's why things like Kitchen Finks and Timely reinforcements are actually pretty strong against them.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

You forgot that in response to your Hexmage, they could just Wasteland your Dark Depths. Or use Knight to tutor for Wasteland to kill your Dark Depths. Or Swords to Plowshares your token. Or bounce your token with Jace. Or...

I don't think it's worth it, suffice to say :tongue:

-Matt

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Playing a dark depths deck is kinda risky if you know that opponent deck has wasteland you should line up 2 hexmage in a sequence of hexmage-->DD-->wasteland--->hexmage--->DD, or popping out the DD using hexmage "if" the coast is clear FTW. Honestly i tried this deck junk depths with living wish but in the post mental misstep era in the era of stoneblades w/c the deck weaken so much w/o the MM your hexmage and marit mage are not protected from STP or your hexmage is not protected from spell snare or stifle. If you want to play dark depths i would recommend using chalice of the voids to protect your pcs chalice for 1 protect your hexmage and marit mage from stps. But todays meta since the inclusion of terminus makes the DD decks fragile atm.
And 1 more thing, karakas :smile:

Atm i want to switch to GSZ build, tool box is good and also recyclability of GSZ w/c is good and another thing i can get out again the creature that is been terminus esp thrun the last troll, Thinking of list w/ right number of creatures w/ gsz :smile:

Maybe i'm crazy but my favorite anti-burn is Leyline of Sanctity. Plus it stops or at least partially stops most combo decks.

Ok DD idea aborted :D
regarding burn, when I ran that tutor sb package, I used 1 conversin and it was nuts (can't be removed easily, shuts monored decks forever and can't be needled). Other nice options are gerrard's veredict and rest for the weary (8 life seems a good breather). Also, when I ran hymn to tourach the match was much easier.
Regarding playing without knight: knight is the only reason I don't switch to DGA permanently. I can see the deck without goyf, but not without knight.... His ability to tutor karakas, maze, bojuka bog and even sejiri steppe (this is pretty cool) plus the fact that an untapped knight actually is also protecting you lands is really fantastic.
Another thing: a friend suggested me to throw in some (2-3) lingering souls for some grindy matches and to allow cabal therapy shenanigans. I'll try it out and as soon as I get results I'll tell you

Hi guys. Rock always had a very kind community so hopefully you don't mind that I drop this simple question here. As a bit of background I have ragequited Magic after ban of Survival. Now I am poking here and there to maybe come back with something between Maverick, Nit Pick and/or Rock (though none of them seem to be as fun to play as Survival :<).

The question is - what is so hot about Deathrite Shaman? I am not too up to date with current meta nor mechanical tricks (untapping KotR with Maze of Ith after damage? That is a new shenanigan), but when I look at this card I would not pick it over BoP nor Hierarch. His 1/2 body I guess is nice when blocking Goblin Lackey, but other than that I don't think that fire//ice is a common enough card give enough value to his fat 2 body. His mana generating ability, which I guess is the main reason he sees play, seems just sooo conditional. Sure, it should not be that difficult to activate him once on turn 3, but a mana hungry deck like Rock surely would rather have a more reliable source of mana? Also it seems like oftentimes activating him would come at a price of shrinking your goyf and/or Kotr, which hardly seems like good idea. Obviously as a plus side, he can shrink enemy kotr and act as a GY hate. But in this department he also seems very lacking and much wore than Ooze. All in all at first sight this card, while very wide, seems very poor at everything it tries to achieve. Is the variety of applications (even though they are lacking) the main reason people pick him up, or is there something I am omitting?

You should not forget that he's a removal magnet and that he gives you some reach by making opponents lose 2 life per turn and or gain you some life to reduce the bleeding vs burn/RUG/UR delver etc.

Regarding Shaman, he can also change snapcaster mage's ability into "make a sad face" -- and he also can disrupt a PiF combo, if you remove a key spell.
About shrinking knights, lavafrogg once said something like "knight is usually the biggest creature in the field, and shaman will make it be always bigger than your opponent's knight". This is true. Making him -1/-1 is not an issue when you can make him +2 +2 each turn (opp eot, tap, get fech, crack for land etc......)
I found that he doesn't shrinks goyf, or at least not that much. We have a lot of instants and sorceries (as well as our opponents in most cases). I still didn't have an issue with that.

Not to forget that Deathrite and Scavenging Ooze are super best friends, esp. against RUG. Exile a land from their yard to exile a creature, gaining you life and incremental power? More, please.

@Timely Reinforcements: what should I cut from my board to make room for it? It seems like the most legit burn hate posted. What about Warmth and/or Kor Firewalker? Is jitte too slow for this deck?

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2 top's
2 jitte
1 vindicate
1 maelstrom
2 abrupt decay
3 thoughtseize
3 gsz
4 swords
4 lingering souls
3 deathrite shaman
1 ooze
3 goyf
4 knight
4 bob
8 fetch
4 wasteland
1 arbor
1 karakas
1 maze
3 bayou
1 scrubland
1 savannah
1forest
1 swamp
1 plains

sideboard
1 Oring
2 garruk relentless
3 hymn
1 golgari charm
2 teeg
2 deed
1extripate
2 surgical
1 bajuka bog

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So I have a few questions:

1) Why the Vindicate/Pulse split? I'd suggest the Pulse for the fact that most of the time, you're going to get some incremental advantage by have the multiples clause, whereas having the one Vindicate to hit lands seems subpar. It's the reason why Miracles is running Detention Sphere, so I think you should be running Pulse.

2) you have no way to search out Lingering Souls like Stoneblade did with Intuition, however, I think you only want three. It's good, but you want 3-4 Abrupt Decay.

3) I think because you're so mana intensive with Souls, I'd run 2 Sylvan Library instead of the 2 Tops so you don't have to worry about Topping. It's also super duper incredible against Miracles.

My suggestions:

2 Sylvan Library
2 jitte
2 maelstrom
4 abrupt decay
3 thoughtseize
3 gsz
4 swords
3 lingering souls
3 deathrite shaman
1 ooze
3 goyf
4 knight
4 bob
8 fetch
4 wasteland
1 arbor
1 karakas
1 maze
3 bayou
1 scrubland
1 savannah
1forest
1 swamp
1 plains

For your sideboard:

1) I'd suggest 3 Surgical just for the being free unless you really plan on playing against 43 Lands. It's better overlap against Combo, but slightly worse against High Tide.

2) Bog is definitely good in the Knight vs. Knight battles, but I'm really just wondering if you want Virtue's Ruin. It does kill your tokens, though. Also, Golgari Charm will kill all of your tokens if you cast it, so you may want to consider Zealous Persecution instead. I know it doesn't kill enchantments, but meh.

I'm thinking:

1 Kitchen Finks (for RUG)
2 Garruk relentless
3 Hymn
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Deed
3 Surgical
1 Bojuka bog

Let me know how it goes!

-Matt

Only 3 Thoughtseize? I always feel naked unless I'm playing 6 or more 1 drop hand disruption spells.

I'm also not a huge fan of Deed + Lingering Souls, but at least by the very nature of Lingering Souls, it is somewhat resilient to Deed.

I'm not a huge fan of only 3 hand disruption either, but I'm assuming that's how he wants to play it, so I'm going to let him go with it.

-Matt

Since there are 3 lingering souls, wouldn't it be wise to run at least a pair of Cabal Therapies? Maybe on the sideboard?

Meh, i guess he could, but I don't see it being 100% necessary.

-Matt

On the lingering souls topic, i did try them in the rock, with different configutations (but allways without SFM, i have to admit), meaning 2 MD jitte, 3-4 lingering souls just for its power, but i never really came to like the card, at least in "The Rock". IMHO lingering souls is not a card we should use in a rock-type deck, simply because we have access to goyf and knight, the 2 biggest ceatures in the format (aside of reanimated or show and telled ceatures), so why bother with a bunch of little pooping flyers.

On the disruption package; there are a few different configurations running around, but i think discard is part of what gives us the edge over other GW decks, and IMO either you go at least with 6 tarteted 1 CMC discard spells or 4 thoughtseize + 4 hymn to tourach. This obviously depends on each players list and playstyle.
I for my part am running 4 thoughtseize + 4 hymn, BECAUSE i am running wastelands and 3 vindicates (instead of pulses) to make the mana disruption plan viable.
You would be surprised against how many decks this mana-disruption package still works (surprisingly even against tempodecks like RUG-Delver, as long you get the mana to cast vindicate, which should not be that hard with 23 lands plus 3-4 shamans).

On deathrite shaman, most of the Rock-Players probably were sceptical initially, as i was, but this little elf is just awesome in many ways. I was using a full Playset of Mox Diamonds prior to using deathrite shaman and i am soooo happy i switched to deathrite shamans. This little creature is a threat by itself. It is a small clock (with reach) WHILE disrupting the opponents devolopement, which is just awesome, plus IMO he is not comparable to BoP or hierarch, which are plain simple manadorks.
To get a clearer picture on Deathrite shaman you probably got to use him in actual games, theory-crafting helps not a bit when thinking of this card as he is way to versatile (which is his great virtue).
To be clear, you wont be using him for mana more then 3 times a game at most, the rest of the time he either pings your opponent or gives you lifepoints.

A section out of the article regarding Deathrite Shaman:

"I’ve read posts here and there and have heard rumblings and results of Shaman being great in Modern. The problem is, Modern isn’t Legacy, so I had my doubts about this guy from the get-go since a card being great in Modern doesn’t necessarily translate to being worthwhile in Legacy. As soon as people said he was, “an automatic four-of,” I had my doubts. Few cards deserve the phrase of automatic four-of. That’s rubbing elbows with the likes of Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorm, Mishra’s Workshop, and most other cards that people have called to be banned or have been banned for being too good as a four-of. I started testing Shaman by shaving slots out of the maindeck. My doubts were initially caused by two factors. One: does Junk need a mana acceleration dork? Two: are his abilities good enough to be worth his inclusion?

The former question is usually a flat no. Over the past two years, people other than and including myself have touted Mox Diamond, Birds of Paradise, and Noble Hierarch as the answer to Junk becoming the next big thing. The myth of the “turn one Hymn to Tourach” is too good for some ignore, and many people start playing card disadvantage-ridden Mox Diamonds in hopes of pulling of that spectacular play that you brag about to your friends for days. Sure, turn 1 Hymns, Bobs, Stoneforges, and a multitude of other plays are great, but they don’t accomplish your goal. Junk runs between 22 and 24 lands, with 2-5 not being mana producing or fetches. Throwing away lands needlessly leads to Turn 1 Hymns, but Turn 2 through 4 stalls and losses. I for one feel that the line of thinking of playing a card that causes you card disadvantage immediately, as well as in the late game, is not a viable line of play at this point in Legacy. Each accelerant had their own side effects that made their inclusion not worth the effort. This changed with Deathrite Shaman due to mana fixing as well as being a utility creature when you needed him to be. He’s like a flip-card that goes from mana dork to utility creature, which is everything Junk has been looking for in an acceleration body. I’ll walk you through why each ability is such a step forward for BWG midrange.

Exiling lands from either graveyard is not only good for colour fixing and acceleration, but recall that Knight of the Reliquary is a card. Removing their lands can accelerate you and be advantageous in future combat scenarios. Loam-based decks, or even decks just playing Loam for value, now get less value out of their cards. That’s good. 43 Lands, although a minor player in the overall Legacy scene, now has something else to deal with. You don’t even need to want mana with this ability; you can just use it to nuke lands that have gone into the bin for value. I’ve found the mana ability to be relevant usually within the first three to four turns, which is when we transition into the other two tap abilities.

The exiling of instants and sorceries is another great utility piece attached to Deathrite Shaman. Snapcaster Mage for a long time was a major player in UW Control Decks, but his popularity is now waning with the move to a Miracle-based control deck. Exiling instants and sorceries means not only does Snapcaster get weaker, but the main advantage is the life lose. It gets around Glacial Chasm locks, Solitary Confinement, and advanced combat states. Creature combat can get messy, and many times, players are afraid to advance the board since there’s no clear winner. Knights, Mother of Runes, Exalted triggers and such all gum up the board and usually cause situations where someone waits for a bomb card to gain value, either by Equipment, evasion, protection, etc. Deathrite Shaman exploits these common stall situations by slowly picking away at the opponent. The argument of weakening Tarmogoyf has merit, but with all the Instants and Sorceries people are playing, you should have no trouble making the opponent lose two while still taking Tarmogoyf to their face.

The last ability of sucking up creatures for life is also great for tight matchups where you need to gain life to survive. RUG Delver, Burn, UR Delver, and even just regular Maverick matchups all flirt with life totals close to our demise for one reason or another, and just boosting your life by two points can mean the difference between winning and not. It nicely hates out Reanimator and Dredge in addition to gaining life. The whole package, however, is what makes Deathrite unique. He’s also a 1/2 in offense and defense, which is much more useful than Noble Hierarch. Now that the bragging about the two newest additions are out of the way and why I’ve decided to include them, let’s see what we cut for them.

The most important aspects of finding new tech is not how many to include, but what to cut from the current decklist you have, and why. Abrupt Decay filled a niche where some 1-of utility cards were lying. Life from the Loam, Engineered Explosives, and another copy of Maelstrom Pulse were replaced by three copies of Decay, and I couldn’t have been happier. I’ve switched removal and utility for better removal and utility. Deathrite Shaman was a bit trickier. He filled a niche that I had already cut from the deck over a year ago, so it was time to cull my babies. Ulvenwald Tracker is a fantastic card, and if I had another slot, I would add him back in first, but he didn’t pull his weight in some matchups, whereas Deathrite always did work. Scavenging Ooze #2 was replaced by another Deathrite, since their roles overlapped and the versatility of Deathrite won out. I havne’t missed Ooze #2 as of yet, since I am running three copies of Green Sun’s Zenith, as well. The last cut for Deathrite #3 was Qasali Pridemage. Pridemage seemed to be a vestigial silver bullet from the days of Mental Misstep-era Blade Control. Qasali Pridemage blowing out Batterskull was an insane play in 2011, but in 2012, this wasn’t an issue. Tricky artifacts and enchantments were already mostly handled by Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse, and Batterskull isn’t a major player at the moment (and Abrupt Decay handles the Germ, if you really wanted to). The flexibility of Deathrite once again won out over Qasali Pridemage. Some of my contemporaries disagree with this cut, but so far, I haven’t missed Qasali at all. Abrupt Decay does really shine that much."


-Matt