I'd be happy to make that trade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
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I'd be happy to make that trade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
I think this is a nice discussion for us to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
In my opinion, before your question there's another one that has to be answered about how important is the 4th wasteland, if the meta goes that direction, of course. Afterall, the decision on number of ports is also connected to the amount of lands and number of double-Rs we play, I guess.
I run four ports and four wastes and I've loved it so far (playing mono red). Best use of port so far has been to tap down a dryad arbor so lackey can hit
If you are playing mono red there is no actual "cost" in running four Wastelands. It's a land destruction spell first, mana source second. I mean, I'm playing in a metagame that all but lacks relevant wasteland targets and I still wouldn't play less then four.
Complementing those with Rishadan Ports is usually good and well, but if you are playing a splash version mana fixing comes first, always.
1. Cavern of Souls
2. Wasteland
3. colour fixing (fetches and duals)
4. Rishadan Port
That how I see it as far as priorities go.
Nailed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
Speaking of color fixing...I have been trying a RBG list for perish and krosan grips in the sideboard...now I think it will not work. What made people originally leave the black or green spashes...having one seems not too hard to accomplish but not both.
Also, as far as how many Warchiefs to run...I wouldn't go with less than 4. Having him and 2 Chieftains makes the decks so explosive and allows Krenko to go nuts. In my testing recently, I have found that Krenko and Warchief are my two main Matron targets and my when I Lackey in a Krenko turn 2, my buddy just chucks his whole deck into the air...Stupid good.
Honestly, seven times out of ten I search up Goblin Ringleader. When I'm not looking for a ringleader I'm almost always tutoring for a removal spell (Gempalm Incinerator, Stingscourger, Mogg Fanatic or Tarfire but I'm not playing it currently).Quote:
Originally Posted by Potdindy
I'm not saying that it's "wrong" to tutor for your silver bullets, sometimes you might need something to push the final points of damage through. However, most of the time what you need is more goblins and ringleader is better at that.
If you guys are having problems with the various forms of Stoneblade I gotta say that having the green splash for Hooligan makes this matchup a LOT better. Just being able to run it out 2 turns quicker than the terrible scrapper usually makes all the difference and gets you so far ahead because they're investing turns/mana trying to get it going. Stingscourger and Prospector help a lot as well
So if you have a Warchief in play, you just CANT kill artifacts with it? That seems like a huge drawback.
It's not. Just learn to play with both.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
There is a tournament report by me on the Primer, June/2011, where I played 4 Warchiefs and 2 TSH MD. By the time people who haven't tested them in the same list criticized it, and so they do now. Playtest it.
Folks keep making this argument against TSH, but folks like B-Rad keep standing by it, so the disynergy can't be all that bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
So let's put this argument to bed once and for all. If you're not going to splash another color, you should splash G to play TSH. Done.
I'm just sceptical. As someone who plays Wild Nacatl in blue decks, I also know what it's like defending dis synergy that's worth it, but this one erks me. Don't we want to get Warchief in play against Maverick asap? I guess against Miracle Control we'd rather sandbag it and wait for the win, but Warchief is a card you want in play early right? So what happens if after that they drop a Jitte or Batterskull? I suppose you could just go crazy regardless, or use Stingscourger just as well (didn't consider this as much), but I'd still be wary of being shut off of that.
Until Wizards releases a 2cmc mono-red artifact removal in the form of a goblin, Tin Street Hooligan is probably our best artifact removal. Here are the problem with Goblin Tinkerer and Tuktuk Scrapper:
I use to play Goblin Tinkerer in my mono red build but it was pretty useless without Warchief and Chieftain, who usually eats a removal spell. This is because I will give my opponent one whole turn to prepare for it. Tinkerer will usually eat a StP, 2 Jitte counters, or a burn from SoFi when I leave an opening. If my opponent has Batterskull, they will simple save three mana to bounce it. While targeting Batterskull with Tinkerer can be a hilarious form of harassment, it is not a solution to the problem. Even if I do have Warchief or Cheiftain out, because our mana base is so greedy now with Cavern of Souls, we many not have the pure red mana to use Goblin Tinkerer's ability. Lastly, TSH is better than Tinkerer because there are more scenarios where I would not have Warchief than if I were to have Warchief out. Even if I do have Warchief out, I can always use him to suicide block a creature, or sacrifice him to Prospector, and cast TSH. Getting rid of Warchief is a lot easier than getting him or keeping him alive for a combo. Tinkerer may be useful if you have seven to eight haste lords, maybe even six.
Between Tuktuk Scrapper and Tinkerer, I'd choose Tuktuk Scrapper. Still, 4cmc to destroy an artifact is pretty expensive. This is especially true if the opponent is on play and casts a turn 2 Stoneforge Mystic. That 4 cmc can quickly turn into a liability. Also, against decks without artifacts, like RUG Delver, the 4cmc for a 2/2 body can be a huge burden. The only reason why I am playing Tuktuk Scrapper is because of budget. If budget is not an issue, splashing G for TSH will be much better for that two turn advantage. On the other hand, Tuktuk Scrapper can be better sometimes because you can't find a green mana source for TSH. Tuktuk Scrapper also works with Vial when CoS is not available, so their are most options to make him uncounterable. Lastly, it can't be targeted by Inquisition of Kozilek when facing against Esperstone Blade.
So yeah, those are my opinions of the three goblin artifact removals.
TSH > Tuktuk Scrapper > Tinkerer
I was skeptical at first. It wasn't until I used TSH for myself that I got to appreciate it as the best artifact removal goblins has. No offense meant, but if you haven't tried it out yourself... nothing you say on the topic has any meaning.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
FTFY =)Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Seriously people. This place is a resource... not the Goblin Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
So, the recent builds with splashes have me thinking about the mechanics of fetchlands in Goblins again.
Last time this was discussed, there was some arguments made about fetches and Ringleader. I was not able to find the posts. Someone ran the numbers and you'd have to fetch 3 or 4 times to average out hitting an extra goblin off of a Ringleader. Is my memory correct here?
I'm not sure if that is right way to look at it, though. Here is what I have been considering.
You have your deck. Assume it has a sufficiently random distribution of cards. You've drawn a random hand of seven and a couple more random draws until you play a Ringleader. Ringleader reveals four cards. Goblins go to your hand, the rest go to the bottom.
This does not change the distribution of most of your deck. Now you have a random distribution on top and 0-4 non-Goblins on the bottom. If you shuffle from here, say off of a Matron, now your deck will have a random distribution again. But the proportion has probably shifted slighty towards non-Goblins.
Fetching will reduce the amount of lands by a small amount. This will shift the ratio a bit back away from non-Goblins.
Back to the numbers from before. Did they take into account that Ringleaders too will mess with the ratio of Goblins to non-Goblins? The variation is slight, but Fetches and Ringleaders together may keep the ratios closer to the original deck construction. Which, I presume is what you would want.
Additionally, there's a physical component to this. Assuming a 'good' shuffle, the more your shuffle the closer you are to a randomized deck. So, does frequent shuffling keep your deck more consistent?'
Man, please, not this again.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinSettler
If you're monored, don't run fetches.
@GobboLord: I may try someday to track the fecth discussions on the forum, so you can link it on the Primer. Maybe then we don't have to go all over this again.
A varient you guys might like, was originally a w/r thalia thorn deck, eventually became 'traditional' white splash goblins...
lands//23
4 Mountain
4 wooded foothills
3 arid mesa
2 cavern of souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 plateau
4 vial
creatures//33
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mobb Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 disenchant
3 swords to plowshares
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyrokinesis
3 thorn of amethyst
The sideboard isn't finito, but I have been liking it a lot so far... Might end up nixing the gravehate for something else though... Maybe bring in the last copies of cavern of souls into the sideboard, can't imagine fitting them into the maindeck as it is though.
Been loving the combo of thalia+waste/port for a long while, and I believe it is at it's strongest in goblins. It might even be good enough to consider removing the caverns from the maindeck entirely in favor of an additional port&fetch, but only time will see.
Sorry if it was unclear. I'm not advocating to run fetches in mono red. Rather, I was running mono red, but lately have been trying a splash. Splash -> fetches -> thinking about fetches and shuffling.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
If pulling about 4 lands out of your deck with fetches skews the numbers so you draw an extra goblin off of a Ringleader, what does a Ringleader that hits four times do? (Besides win)
I see where you're coming from; that you hope to find an ideal proportion of fetches to Ringleader reveals to shuffle effects that will magically turn every game into a can't-lose scenario by maximizing the number goblins your Ringleaders reveal.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinSettler
My friend, you are embarking upon a fool's errand. Math in Magic is hampered by gamestate and randomness in such a way that Poker and Chess are not. You cannot deduce a perfect scenario of maximizing you Ringleaders in every game. It just doesn't exist. Every game is different, and every Fetchland, Matron, Gempalm, Ringleader, and sideboard card will affect your calculations. You are more than welcome to try and calculate the reveals of Goblins in every various scenario, but your end result will ultimately be the same: Fetches/Matrons/previous Ringleaders just don't matter.
Running fetches don't increase your Ringleader reveals enough under ideal circumstances for them to be "Worth" running in a mono-R deck. The only reason to run fetches is to mana fix in a Rx deck.
In a 60 card deck with 26 Non-Goblin cards, on turn 4 on the play, with 10 cards in hand/play, 4 of which are Non-goblins (lands) to allow you to cast a Ringleader, whether you fetch 0 to 4 times you will always be more likely to draw 2 or less Goblins than you will be to draw 3 or more goblins. After 4 fetches you WILL be more likely to draw three goblins than 2 goblins, but once you factor in drawing 4 goblins or 0 or 1 goblins you are still more likely to draw 2 or less goblins than 3 or more goblins.
In other words: Your fetches will not make any sort of difference that will predictably matter. So stop worrying about it.
Fetches should only be used to fix you manabase, not to attempt to maximize Ringleaders.
And if a Ringleader hits 4 goblins and you haven't won the game, then you're not going to win the game anyway, and it doesn't matter that you're going to naturally draw a proportionally higher number of lands for the rest of that game.
Thinking of Magic and deckbuilding and playing th game in these terms will NOT help you become a better Magic player.
If anything, what he is saying is that Fetch lands and matron shuffles make the 2nd 3rd and 4th ringleaders worse.
I think instead of going into detail about shuffling, you could look at it this way.
If you ringleader and hit 3 goblins and put non goblin on the bottom, fetching a land has no effect on thinning your deck. Without shuffling, putting the card on the bottom is essentially not even in the deck. By shuffling you are basically shuffling 1 non goblin back into your deck, and removing 1 land - no net benifit.
If you have a 2/2 split on ringleader, fetching shuffles 2 cards in and takes one out.
But then you could also look at something like terminus, where without shuffling, the goblins are basically removed from the game. With a fetch you are shuffling x goblins back in and taking 1 dead draw out. Which is a big net benifit.
However, I don't think any of this really matters that much when it comes to deck building. If you are going for a splash you need fetch lands, and it will be very very rare scenarios where this kind of logic even really matters, because you will often need to shuffle for a land or a matron.
But in general the math behind adding fetchlands makes almost no statistical difference in improving draws. If you want to go into super try hard mode, it obviously has some effect (Your odds of drawing an your out are x/y vs x/(y-1)), but if you don't think about it, statistically it shouldn't make a difference.