[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Now that I've needlessly added my own annotations to Kevin's response to someone other than me (because I'm nosy like that), I have to ask what is so good about Master of the Wild Hunt? I mean yeah, it's a great bomb that must be answered, but it does nothing immediately, which means it can be answered immediately with no lingering effects. Even if it lives long enough to pop out a wolf and either spot-remove a DRS, SFM, Bob, etc., it lacks the same impact that Huntmaster of the Fells flipped once or Squallmonger/Ifh-Biff Efreet with so much open mana has, and certainly lacks the staying power that Thrun has.

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Few comments for your comments, which I'm going to suck out of that big wall of text:

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Originally Posted by ELC

Note: Might I suggest Harmonic Sliver as well? Or has that tech gone the wayside?

Note: While I agree Swords is amazing right now, I suggest swapping Vindicate for Oblivion Ring or Angel of Despair: Show and Tell decks just love it when you Show them one of these and Tell them their Omniscience, Sneak Attack, Emrakul, Griselbrand, etc. just bit the dust. Plus, lands aren't scary for this deck, so if neither of those, go with Maelstrom Pulse.

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Sliver is a fine sideboard option. Unless your meta is DROWNED in Stoneblade, though, I can't imagine wanting both Sliver and Qasali maindeck....or MUD, but if your meta has that much MUD, you shouldn't be playing this deck anyway if you want to win.

I have exactly the other opinion on Vindicate. If anything, I'd cut 1 Swords for 1 Pulse, so that you would have a removal suite of 3/1/1. Vindicate is very important, because it lets you kill problem lands. Things like Academy Ruins can provide an enormous problem. Also, looping Vindicate through Witness with Nightmare is big game. I won a game at Jupiter on Saturday this way, by screwing my opponent completely off of red mana. Every time he hit a red source, he didn't have a red source anymore.

@Master of the Wild Hunt: Master is good here because he's another token-maker to abuse with Trostani, who is my favorite engine in straight Rock builds of Nic Fit. I'll grant that he has to live a turn, but once he does, he's absurd. He can field an entire board state by himself -- see vs Miracles in my feature match, where I forced my opponent to trade a sweeper 1-for-1 with him. He's also a 4-drop threat, which Nic Fit in general is really light on. You've basically got Thrun, Master of the Wild Hunt, and Chameleon Colossus as options for 4-drop green dudes. That's about it. I've never, ever liked Thrun. Chameleon is fine, but IMO Master synergizes better with the deck. If you have more Lightning Bolts in your meta, you probably want to go for Chameleon. But most metas are awash with Abrupt Decay, in which case Master is better, because it does something other than just beat for a ton.

Note that I also have a higher opinion of Master from Rector, since in Rector he's another way to "sacrifice."

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Few comments for your comments, which I'm going to suck out of that big wall of text:


Sliver is a fine sideboard option. Unless your meta is DROWNED in Stoneblade, though, I can't imagine wanting both Sliver and Qasali maindeck....or MUD, but if your meta has that much MUD, you shouldn't be playing this deck anyway if you want to win.

I have exactly the other opinion on Vindicate. If anything, I'd cut 1 Swords for 1 Pulse, so that you would have a removal suite of 3/1/1. Vindicate is very important, because it lets you kill problem lands. Things like Academy Ruins can provide an enormous problem. Also, looping Vindicate through Witness with Nightmare is big game. I won a game at Jupiter on Saturday this way, by screwing my opponent completely off of red mana. Every time he hit a red source, he didn't have a red source anymore.

@Master of the Wild Hunt: Master is good here because he's another token-maker to abuse with Trostani, who is my favorite engine in straight Rock builds of Nic Fit. I'll grant that he has to live a turn, but once he does, he's absurd. He can field an entire board state by himself -- see vs Miracles in my feature match, where I forced my opponent to trade a sweeper 1-for-1 with him. He's also a 4-drop threat, which Nic Fit in general is really light on. You've basically got Thrun, Master of the Wild Hunt, and Chameleon Colossus as options for 4-drop green dudes. That's about it. I've never, ever liked Thrun. Chameleon is fine, but IMO Master synergizes better with the deck. If you have more Lightning Bolts in your meta, you probably want to go for Chameleon. But most metas are awash with Abrupt Decay, in which case Master is better, because it does something other than just beat for a ton.

Note that I also have a higher opinion of Master from Rector, since in Rector he's another way to "sacrifice."

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Ah . . . the first rule of Nic Fit: synergy trumps power, and both combined beats either. In that case, I can see how Master of the Wild Hunt would be good.

However, I still prefer Thrun over Master in my list, if only because of amazing synergy with Batterskull (herpderpswing!) and Jace, the Mind Sculptor/other Walkers (guards them quite nicely with 1G open). He's also a nice Terminus magnet (doubt this is really relevant any more though). The only problem I have with Thrun is that he loses a lot of value if you GSZ for him against blue-heavy decks.

When I played master he just dominates games if he goes unanswered. If the meta is largely creature based he is probably the best choice

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Ah . . . the first rule of Nic Fit: synergy trumps power, and both combined beats either. In that case, I can see how Master of the Wild Hunt would be good.

However, I still prefer Thrun over Master in my list, if only because of amazing synergy with Batterskull (herpderpswing!) and Jace, the Mind Sculptor/other Walkers (guards them quite nicely with 1G open). He's also a nice Terminus magnet (doubt this is really relevant any more though). The only problem I have with Thrun is that he loses a lot of value if you GSZ for him against blue-heavy decks.

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Yeah, I definitely agree. For your deck, Thrun is fine. I'm still not sure that I would personally run him in a similar list, but I recognize that is largely because of personal bias on my part. I just don't like the guy. Doesn't mean that I can't recognize and accept his presence in your build.

I'll admit 2 Thrun may be too much but I've always liked having the second agaisnt the perish decks.
I have never ever been disappointed when landing a Thrun or Grave Titan. Titan has amazing synergy with Recurring Nightmare. Against a BUG player once I had a GT, 2 zombies and Recurring Nightmare in play. I swung and he animated both his Factories, put them in front of the Titan and activated them to make them trade with the Titan. Main phase 2 I played veteran explorer saced it to Nightmare and got back my Titan. That prompted the concession. Thrun is just a house especially against the Stonebalde decks where they can't Jace bounce him, they can't Swords him, and he stands in front of Batterskulls and says "Come at me Bro."

I hadn't given much thought to Harmonic Sliver. Sliver is very good where as Elder offers another big body. And you can never have enough redundant abilities.

I liked having the Vindicate against the Planewalker decks but I can see your argument for O-Ring. The Sneak and Show decks are probably my worst match up. Plus O-Ring can still take out a Jace and can be recurred with Sun Titan. But I do like the fact that Vindicate can hit problem lands. O-Ring also might not be bad in the board. I took a page out of Mavericks book and have an Enlighted Tutor board.

I wanted to see if deathrite Shaman was a good fit for the deck as one of my friends was trying to argue that he was. Obvioulsy the deck revolves aroung Veteran Explorer so i could justify adding shaman in place of him.

I hadn't thought of Sigarda either and that adds ALOT of power. I do like the idea of her.

Liliana has never let me down and can quickly take over games. Also works very well agains the show and tell decks at making them sac their Eldrazi.

I was running 3 deed and found I actually like running 2 better. especually when i use the Enlightened Tutor side board. if i leave in the Deed i can tutor for it.

I tried running Rector a while back when RUG was super dominatnt and they would just stifle the ablility.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

When I played master he just dominates games if he goes unanswered. If the meta is largely creature based he is probably the best choice

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Ah! There's some very good insight right there!

Thrun is great against control, as it turns off all of their spot removal and forces them to use their sweepers if they really need to deal with him.
Master is great against aggro/tempo/midrange, as it turns off all of their utility weenie creatures and even random wincons like Goblin Piledriver
And then you have Chameleon Colossus, which I believe would be awesome against combo provided you can disrupt them before sticking him. Swinging for 8 will end games quickly, which is good against Combo since the longer the game goes on, the better their chances of recovering.

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Originally Posted by ZimAshe

I wanted to see if deathrite Shaman was a good fit for the deck as one of my friends was trying to argue that he was. Obvioulsy the deck revolves aroung Veteran Explorer so i could justify adding shaman in place of him.

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Sorry for being blunt, but this is a bad decision. The Veteran Explorer+Cabal Therapy interaction is the backbone of this archetype, and without it, this deck is just a slower Junk, Jund, Team America, or Rock.

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Ah! There's some very good insight right there!

Thrun is great against control, as it turns off all of their spot removal and forces them to use their sweepers if they really need to deal with him.
Master is great against aggro/tempo/midrange, as it turns off all of their utility weenie creatures and even random wincons like Goblin Piledriver
And then you have Chameleon Colossus, which I believe would be awesome against combo provided you can disrupt them before sticking him. Swinging for 8 will end games quickly, which is good against Combo since the longer the game goes on, the better their chances of recovering.

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Sorry for being blunt, but this is a bad decision. The Veteran Explorer+Cabal Therapy interaction is the backbone of this archetype, and without it, this deck is just a slower Junk, Jund, Team America, or Rock.

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yeah that was a typo on my part. could should've been couldn't.
I was thinking Shaman could be a 1 of in the deck and GSZ target. A good way to get value our of exiling spells from the graveyard other than with just Ooze.

Also what do we think about Spirit Monger or is he just not good anymore? I remember running him in my old Extended Rock deck back in the day. Just trying to find and excuse to brush him off and play him again i guess.

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Originally Posted by ZimAshe

yeah that was a typo on my part. could should've been couldn't.
I was thinking Shaman could be a 1 of in the deck and GSZ target. A good way to get value our of exiling spells from the graveyard other than with just Ooze.

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My bad lol.

Anyhow, 1 to 2 is good. Not sure what I'd swap for it in your list though :/

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

My bad lol.

Anyhow, 1 to 2 is good. Not sure what I'd swap for it in your list though :/

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No worries :D

Yeah, like I stated earlier in the thread the list is pretty tight. the only change I've made so far is the one i made last night where I -1 Eternal Witness to +1 Fierce Empath. i was finding that some games I couldn't get to my Titans fast enough and Having the Empath I'm hoping will get me there faster.

I could cut an Ooze for a Shaman but I think I like the idea of having 2 Oozes in the deck.

Actually, now that you mention Ooze, I believe dropping him to one would allow you to make room for one DRS.

The reason behind this is that with four GSZ you'd still have five effective copies of Ooze in your list, and having multiple Oozes out is redundancy at its worst.

Updated List:

I will run this on Sunday and respond back here.

Junk Nic Fit (GWB Explorer)

Creatures:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Wall of Blossoms
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witeness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Fierce Empath
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Thragtusk
1x Grave Titan
1x Sun Titan

Spells:
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skeletal Scrying
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Vindicate

Lands:
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Choke
2x Engineered Plague
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Extirpate
1x Kitchen finks
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Oblivion Ring

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Damn people posting while I am :P

Deathrite would occupy one of the Scavenging Ooze slots if you really want him. He's been kind of underwhelming to everyone in here who's tried him, though.

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Ooze is so much better then DRS in nicft. Obviously it simply pants dredge, against tribal decks it single handedly out classes anything they can drop if you have a couple of open green and dudes in the yard (except combo elves). It stops recursion of any form, and the life gain from Ooze is the cherry on top (but I dislike cherries so lets say pecans with some caramel drizzle). So it can't ramp but in a deck that is meant to hard cast 6 drops 99/100 that is not an issue.

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Originally Posted by moseby

Ooze is so much better then DRS in nicft. Obviously it simply pants dredge, against tribal decks it single handedly out classes anything they can drop if you have a couple of open green and dudes in the yard (except combo elves). It stops recursion of any form, and the life gain from Ooze is the cherry on top (but I dislike cherries so lets say pecans with some caramel drizzle). So it can't ramp but in a deck that is meant to hard cast 6 drops 99/100 that is not an issue.

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not disputing the power level of Ooze he is awesome. I like him better than Goyfe honestly. But Deathrite offers another avanue especially against the spell heavy decks like BUG Control. It's just a way to get value out of removing the instants and soceries from an opponents graveyard where as in the case of Ooze he would just exile them and there would be no benefit other than the spells not being there.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I have exactly the other opinion on Vindicate. If anything, I'd cut 1 Swords for 1 Pulse, so that you would have a removal suite of 3/1/1. Vindicate is very important, because it lets you kill problem lands. Things like Academy Ruins can provide an enormous problem. Also, looping Vindicate through Witness with Nightmare is big game. I won a game at Jupiter on Saturday this way, by screwing my opponent completely off of red mana. Every time he hit a red source, he didn't have a red source anymore.

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What wold the benefit be to running Maelstrom Pulse over say a second Vndicate? just curious?

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Originally Posted by moseby

Ooze is so much better then DRS in nicft. Obviously it simply pants dredge, against tribal decks it single handedly out classes anything they can drop if you have a couple of open green and dudes in the yard (except combo elves). It stops recursion of any form, and the life gain from Ooze is the cherry on top (but I dislike cherries so lets say pecans with some caramel drizzle). So it can't ramp but in a deck that is meant to hard cast 6 drops 99/100 that is not an issue.

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I wouldn't personally run either; I'm just saying that if he REALLY wants DRS, then one of the 2 Oozes is where he finds the room.

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Originally Posted by ZimAshe

What wold the benefit be to running Maelstrom Pulse over say a second Vndicate? just curious?

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Multiples, and tokens specifically. Being able to randomly mana screw people when the situation happens is fine, but I wouldn't go too deep on Vindicate just because of that functionality. It's just a tool in the deck's utility belt, like anything else. Pulse is actually better in the abstract because it kills tokens and multiples -- if you're staring down 2x Goyf, or 4 Lingering Souls tokens, then you want Pulse. If you're vs a Thopter deck, or Esperblade, and they're locking you down with Ruins + Batterskull, or Ruins + Thopter Foundry, then you're going to want a Vindicate. One of these things happens more commonly than the other, which is why Pulse is better. But it's better to have both in some capacity, since you can reuse them later via Witness, and ultimately via Nightmare+Witness.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

. . .But it's better to have both in some capacity, since you can reuse them later via Witness, and ultimately via Nightmare+Witness.

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I often find that I have trouble finding them. If you're running a singleton Maelstrom Pulse and a singleton Vindicate, like I see a lot of lists, how do tutor up the one you need when you need it?

the one thing I keep in mind about Vindicate is that it reads "target permanent", not "target non-land permanent". Just something to think about if Karakas or something of the sort is irritating you.

I've seen varrying amounts of Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate & Abrupt Decay. Is there any standard amounts of each of these? Or is it just trial and error?

A few things.

I have not played this deck since RTR, but I would run DRS as a 1 of as an alternate ramp source, similar to what durward ran Natures Lore for.

I would be on 2 Abrupt Decay and 2 Maelstrom Pulse (most likely) because this deck is somewhat weak to Jace, which Decay does not hit. We do not need Decay as much as other decks due to Pernicious Deed ruining their day. Deed does not in deed (HA!) hit JTMS or other walkers which we are weak to.

I have stated and it has been discussed to death about Liliana, but I personally love this card to death and would not run less then 2 (in a straight GB list).

Edit: Talking about this deck... Man I miss it. I really want to play this again.

I'm still on straight GB until I get the rest of the pieces to play Scapewish, and I've been satisfied but not especially impressed with Deathrite Shaman. He's a very useful piece of alternative ramp but he dies to our Pernicious Deeds, which sucks. I still play 2 but I've been happier with 1-of Sakura-Tribe Elder as a piece of dedicated ramp. As said Deathrite Shaman does have a lot of utility in addition to mana, so having 1-2 in the deck for a Zenith target is very good, but you can't rely on him as your ramp source necessarily. People tend to kill him as soon as they can, so keeping a hand reliant on him for mana is not good. I'd try out 1 Sakura-Tribe Elder. He's really good.

That said, Deathrite does a very nice job of drawing out the StP that would otherwise be aimed at our explorers when played on turn 1.

Also at the Disenchant/Creature discussion, have you considered Acidic Slime? It gets a lot of the problem cards that you otherwise need Vindicate for, is tutorable via GSZ, and nukes an Omniscience off of Show and Tell if you're worried about that.

Has anybody tried Attrition in Rectorfit? That is the only version I have been toying around with. I always keep my eye on bullets for the board. I know we have Deed but with Master of the Wild Hunt, Garruk (some lists), Grave Titan (some lists, I think he can be solid in Rectorfit because of R.Nightmare), and of course Rector and Veteran Explorer. I am not too lazy to test but if you can shoot me down, please do :)

Does anyone knows how to battle with Sneak/Show Deck? other than Slaughter Games/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy is there other way to shut it down?