4 Card Blind

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Originally Posted by FTW

I thought Elixir would be a lot weaker this round. The fact that you have to use up 2 slots on lands and play ETB tapped lands reduces how much interaction the deck has. Iona, Floorboards, Barbed Shocker, Infect, and some other fast decks should all beat this because you only get Trophy on turn 3. We just had a surprisingly slow meta with little combo, and this deck shines in grindy metas.

It seems fine to leave unbanned as long as so many T1 combo decks and fast prison decks exist.

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Next round is the Impatience rule, so Elixir by itself potentially gets around that, and I don't want the Elixir construction tax to be a problem to basically ignore 2 damage a turn. (Plus there are actual clever ways around it!)

It probably won't matter in the end though, because it's begging to be ignored the classic combo route. (Which means that Elixir is probably going to be bad anyways.)

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Originally Posted by dte

On style, I love H's deck: peasant + perfect use of the coin.
I also find fun that WoP gets top scores with almost the same deck on two very different rounds.

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Maybe I should have been submitting it the whole time. (That's no fun though, I basically knew it was a top contender for the land rule format as I played it before in the 3CB variant with the inferior Beast Within, and it literally only lost to Exploration ramping into fatties that ignore Beast Within because Trophy wasn't even printed yet. Turns out the fourth card makes going wide far more legit, because exiling discard makes waiting for Hydra Broodmaster not a plan, and From under the Floorboards is definitely the way to do it to beat Trophy loops.)

My favorite entry was yours actually.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Next round is the Impatience rule, so Elixir by itself potentially gets around that, and I don't want the Elixir construction tax to be a problem to basically ignore 2 damage a turn. (Plus there are actual clever ways around it!)

It probably won't matter in the end though, because it's begging to be ignored the classic combo route. (Which means that Elixir is probably going to be bad anyways.)

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It probably won't matter. The vast majority of Legacy 4CB decks either goldfish or lock the game down long before turn 10. Mountain + Chronomaton/Stromkirk Noble/Reckless Waif on its own is faster.

The decks most affected by Impatience are slow grindy control decks like Ensnaring Bridge + Scalding Tongs, which Elixir-Trophy preys on, so Elixir is losing some of its best matchups while the explosive fast decks are unaffected.

maxx!: Cavern of Souls, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Meddling Mage, Spell Pierce

1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Chromomaton, Durkwood Baloth, Daze
I can Meddle Baloth, but can't stop Chronomaton. 0-6

2. jhhdk: Gatekeeper of Malakir, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth,Volrath's Stronghold
OTP you land Gatekeeper first, so I can't race. I can't trade, because Stronghold recurs your guy. OTD I can accelerate out Mage and name Gatekeeper, locking you out. 3-3

3. GoblinSmashmaster: Island, Force Spike, Force Spike, Brinebarrow Intruder
Double Force Spike is pretty interesting, but Cavern of Souls means I can stick Mage, and 2/2 beats 1/2. 6-0

4. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Porcelain Legionnaire, Trinisphere, Rishadan Port
3ball is good tech, but doesn't matter in this matchup. I can't beat turn 1 City -> Legionnaire on the play or draw. 0-6

5. Wrath of Pie: Mishra's Factory, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
Mage names Trophy and our 2/2s stare or trade. 2-2

6. H: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Fume Spitter, Shamble Back
I feel like this I saw this exact deck around 4 months ago? Or something very similar. OTP I play Oboro and pass. You can try to double Cry me, but I can Pierce it to avoid the haunt trigger, then Mage naming Shamble Back on my turn. If you go for the turn 1 Shamble, I Pierce that. If you just play Fume Spitter and pass, I play Mage and name Shamble Back. I think Vile Rebirth would actually get you a draw with the coin, since you could cast it in response to my Mage while I'm tapped out. OTD you can lead with either Cry (I pitch Pierce) or Fume Spitter, and then I play a turn 1 Mage on Shamble. 6-0

7. maxx!: Cavern of Souls, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Meddling Mage, Spell Pierce
This is me :]

8. Serguei: Scalding Tongs, City of Traitors, Simian Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge
Very interesting deck. OTD is easy: I can Pierce a turn 1 Bridge, or if you don't play that, I play a turn 1 Mage naming Bridge. Tongs can't ever race Mage, and you can't cast SSG when you're on the play, so I should win that one. OTP is really tricky, because you can actually cast your 2/2. I play Oboro, then you have options. Playing a turn 1 Bridge doesn't do you any favors, because you have to use Lotus or SSG to do it, and I can Spell Pierce it and race Tongs. If you play a turn 1 SSG, I don't think I can win, but maybe I can draw. I can play Mage naming Tongs, and then wait to trade until I've untapped. Once I have U available, I can safely trade or stare, and always have mana to counter Tongs (in case of trading). If you play Tongs turn 1, I have to Pierce it and play Mage naming either of your remaining cards (draw either way). 4-1?

9. Tylert: Lion's eye diamond, Rites of unburial, Iona, shield of emeria, Karakas
This deck can't beat Spell Pierce. 6-0

10. dte: City of traitors, Hangarback Walker, Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer
All creatures, 2 that can grow infinitely, and you may even have some extra tricks with Ravager that I don't see yet. Definitely can't beat this. 0-6

11. FTW: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Path to Exile, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
OTP you can t1 Thalia and I can't ever cast my Mage. OTD I can stick Mage, but none of the cards I name can be enough. Naming Path loses the beatdown race, and not naming Path means my Mage gets Path'd. Thalia tax means Spell Pierce never helps. 0-6

12. silkster: Plains, Cenn's Tactician, Pact of Negation, Angel's Grace
I'm never fast enough to name Cenn's with my Mage. The countermagic does nothing. 0-6

0+3+6+0+2+6+4+6+0+0+0 = 27 points

Spell Pierce was the only thing I could really come up with, though I did spend some time spitballing with Gemstone Caverns and a 2 mana counterspell. I had a hard time deciding on lands too. Karakas would've helped in the FTW matchup (I think? maybe not), but I figured an uncounterable Meddling Mage would be pretty decent. I expected more explosive combos.

Serguei's deck with City and SSG is super cool, because SSG pulls double duty as backup acceleration (without coin), or a castable Gray Ogre (with the coin). Really creative.

I am definitely better at Pauper/Peasant, haha. Legacy is so hard.

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

4. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Porcelain Legionnaire, Trinisphere, Rishadan Port

7. maxx!: Cavern of Souls, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Meddling Mage, Spell Pierce
No answer to t1 legionnaire or meddling mage. LW !!! 3-3

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I can't ever play Mage before Legionnaire. My turn 1 Mage is OTD only, always after your turn 1. Pretty sure you 6-0 me

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "No Smashing"

1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Chromomaton, Durkwood Baloth, Daze
Baloth smash :( 0-6

2. jhhdk: Gatekeeper of Malakir, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth,Volrath's Stronghold
Tabernacle then Gatekeeped 0-6

3. GoblinSmashmaster: Island, Force Spike, Force Spike, Brinebarrow Intruder
That's me not playing Spell Pierce

4. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Porcelain Legionnaire, Trinisphere, Rishadan Port
Legionnaire smash 0-6

5. Wrath of Pie: Mishra's Factory, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
Assassinated 0-6

6. H: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Fume Spitter, Shamble Back
Counter cry and shamble 1-4

7. maxx!: Cavern of Souls, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Meddling Mage, Spell Pierce
Mage smash 0-6

8. Serguei: Scalding Tongs, City of Traitors, Simian Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge
Counter bridge and tongs 6-0

9. Tylert: Lion's eye diamond, Rites of unburial, Iona, shield of emeria, Karakas
Counter unburial 3-3

10. dte: City of traitors, Hangarback Walker, Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer
Counter walker and overseer 3-3

11. FTW: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Path to Exile, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Factory smash :( 0-6

12. silkster: Plains, Cenn's Tactician, Pact of Negation, Angel's Grace
Pact 0-6


Total: 13 points

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Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster

9. Tylert: Lion's eye diamond, Rites of unburial, Iona, shield of emeria, Karakas
Counter unburial 3-3

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Unburial costs 4 in the yard.

OTP, You have no mana. I cast LED, play Karakas, crack LED and cast Unburial for 4 from the grave for the win naming blue.
OTD, You have an island. I cast LED, Play Karakas, crack LED and Cast uneburial for 4 From the grave. You force spike and I crack lotus petal to pay and win.

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Originally Posted by Tylert

OTP, You have no mana. I cast LED, play Karakas, crack LED and cast Unburial for 4 from the grave for the win naming blue.

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Both of you get a turn at Lotus Petal...
OTP he pays with the Petal

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Originally Posted by FTW

Both of you get a turn at Lotus Petal...
OTP he pays with the Petal

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Oups :)

Fun fact: I had 3-3 in my original analysis :)

Ha, I misread the rules, I thought we got the Lotus Petal on the Play, :laugh:.

Wow, my deck is stupidly bad in light of this...

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Originally Posted by dte

Otherwise for normal rounds, I think elixir, LED and Barbed Shocker are equally oppressive. Another way to see it is to say that they define a metagame, and are then fine. I am fine either way (keeping or banning).

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I think this is worth talking about and I support adding a few more bans. As Wrath said, he could have just played Elixir every time and been very successful with it, but that's boring. Maybe we need to change some of the rounds to make the effects more impactful, but I think banning a few of these tier 0 strategies might be good.

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Originally Posted by silkster

I think this is worth talking about and I support adding a few more bans. As Wrath said, he could have just played Elixir every time and been very successful with it, but that's boring. Maybe we need to change some of the rounds to make the effects more impactful, but I think banning a few of these tier 0 strategies might be good.

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We could ban a few more cards.
I think these look bannable in general:
Lion's Eye Diamond
Assassin's Trophy
Barbed Shocker

Not sure about Elixir of Immortality.

For certain individual rounds, I think we can also look at some bannings.
In the creatures get +3/+3 round we should probably ban Ensnaring Bridge.
In the life gain round, we should probably get rid of Felidar Sovereign, just because it's stupid.

Any cards I'm forgetting about?

Trophy could likely be easily be replaced with Beast Within and/or Generous Gift, so those really need to be considered together.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Trophy could likely be easily be replaced with Beast Within and/or Generous Gift, so those really need to be considered together.

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Both cost 3 mana and give the controller a 3/3 dude. That's like a factor 4 worse. Perhaps more.
The problem with Trphy is that it costs just 2, kills everything and its downside doesn't work in 4CB.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Both cost 3 mana and give the controller a 3/3 dude. That's like a factor 4 worse. Perhaps more.
The problem with Trphy is that it costs just 2, kills everything and its downside doesn't work in 4CB.

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Actually, it's not as bad as you think, because both can be cast on turn 3 with the standard bounceland construction, and more importantly you can target your own permanents as a win condition, which opens up utility lands as an option instead of having to play a manland as a win condition. Trophy is better outside of dedicated Elixir loops, but that's not the big worry here. (There are situations where the mana difference is relevant, but a vast majority of the time the cards are orthogonal in the dedicated Elixir hands.)

In comparison, something like Vindicate is fine, because its colors mean you are stuck with Factory as a manland, the manland is necessary as a win condition, and more importantly, it's a sorcery.

If we are banning LED and Shocker, then I think Elixir should be banned too. It's a colorless 1-card loop requiring only 2 mana, which is too easy to throw in many shells and abuse with other cards. The other loops we had (mainly dte) were more fragile multi-card combos that have a real deck construction cost that Elixir lacks.

Degenerate T1 combo is what polices slow Elixir loops. If you remove one, the other should go too.

As is, I thought Elixir was fair because combo existed. You just end up with a Rock-Paper-Scissors meta or Combo-Hate-Elixir. Elixir scored so many points because most decks fell into fair "Hate" decks and very little "Combo" was played, but if more people were on Shocker and Iona then it would have balanced out.

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Originally Posted by FTW

If we are banning LED and Shocker, then I think Elixir should be banned too. It's a colorless 1-card loop requiring only 2 mana, which is too easy to throw in many shells and abuse with other cards. The other loops we had (mainly dte) were more fragile multi-card combos that have a real deck construction cost that Elixir lacks.

Degenerate T1 combo is what polices slow Elixir loops. If you remove one, the other should go too.

As is, I thought Elixir was fair because combo existed. You just end up with a Rock-Paper-Scissors meta or Combo-Hate-Elixir. Elixir scored so many points because most decks fell into fair "Hate" decks and very little "Combo" was played, but if more people were on Shocker and Iona then it would have balanced out.

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You're definitely right that Elixir isn't unbeatable. The issue is that the guessing-game of "should I play Combo, Hate, or Elixir?" is just not very exciting. You make good points, and I'm persuaded that it makes sense to me to ban LED, Shocker, and Elixir together.

Fully agree on these three too.
Trophy seems fine to me, particularly if elixir goes away.

I think the next-best loop engine is Soldevi Digger, which is much worse. (Trophy probably becomes unplayable because of the color requirements without Elixir looping, but that shouldn't stop people from trying.)

The bigger question is whether or not the third ban is Barbed Shocker or Simian Spirit Guide. I would be inclined toward Barbed Shocker, because SSG enables t1 prison pieces that are still relatively interesting for the format. I would also look toward just straight up banning Ensnaring Bridge, because a fairer format makes its prospects much better, and it is a fairly obvious default.

I'm not worried about Bridge this round at least, because the standard Bridge deck is incapable of winning in Impatience.

Later it may need to be revisted.

Banning ssg, with dark ritual, petal and esg around, would seem weird to me. It is a fine card, one mana for one card (out of 4) is comitting.

I am for the triad shoker, led, elixir.