[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

My biggest gripe with this is is that you have an active vial in play, or a lackey/instigator connecting, you are already ahead. I agree that Tuktuk might be playable as a 1 or 2 of sideboard for monored in metagames where artifacts are a problem. I'm not saying that we should play TSH, I actually think monored is the best right now in generalized metagames followed by RB. What I'm saying is that if artifacts are really a problem enough to warrant Tuktuk Scrapper, then I would rather splash green and run Tin Street Hooligan, one of the most underrated goblins ever.

Artifact and Enchantment removal has always been a safety valve for goblins. It has never been a proactive strategy. This is what makes goblin tinkerer not that great. Therefore, we should be assessing artifact/enchantment removal from a spot of being in a bad position. Krosan grip is great in this position, but not the best: it still costs 2G, a significant investment for goblins. Losing a turn to cast a spell without an immediate effect on the game state is always a ballbuster in goblins. That's why I believe moon effects, choke, etc. have never really been that good in the deck. If they are countered, losing that turn is much more crushing than if say, Eva Green spent a turn to play choke, because turn 3 is a very fundamental and strategic turn for our deck where we need to maximize the tempo gains that comes with the synergy of hasty cheaty goblins. Anyways, krosan grip is good in a losing position, sometimes: tin street hooligan (as long as not manascrewed) is great in a losing position. It kills off the problematic artifact and gives us a free 2/1. In addition, on turn 5 (the turn after they play and equip jitte), we can matron-->TSH.

But honestly, this argument is not that important, and I meant to compare TSH vs Tuktuk Scrapper as simply if I was to play artifact removal, which would imply a slightly wacky metagame. As of now, I'm running 0 artifact removal in my 75. And I'm not trying to be extremely defiant in my point in saying Tuktuk is bad. It will take time to properly evaluate the card, but I think the bigger question is, do we need to even have artifact removal?

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Isn't an active Jitte basically gg against us? We have no way to get rid of the Jitte other than the aforementioned cards. I haven't tested enough, so this is just speculation, but whenever I've seen Jitte in other matchups that rely on lots of small critters, when it's active, it's a huge uphill battle. I would think spending a lot to be able to kill a Jitte would be a good call regardless of your metagame.

And on turn 5 if we have a Warchief effect we can play Matron for Tuk Tuk and play it to kill the Jitte.

I guess the inability of Warchief and TSH to work together really turns me off to the Hooligan. Plus, I'm trying to run RB so I should probably stay out of the Hooligan debate to be able to focus better on 2 colors. And I guess I can run Earwig and Duress in the SB to help eliminate the threat of a Jitte before it happens.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

Isn't an active Jitte basically gg against us? We have no way to get rid of the Jitte other than the aforementioned cards. I haven't tested enough, so this is just speculation, but whenever I've seen Jitte in other matchups that rely on lots of small critters, when it's active, it's a huge uphill battle. I would think spending a lot to be able to kill a Jitte would be a good call regardless of your metagame.

And on turn 5 if we have a Warchief effect we can play Matron for Tuk Tuk and play it to kill the Jitte.

I guess the inability of Warchief and TSH to work together really turns me off to the Hooligan. Plus, I'm trying to run RB so I should probably stay out of the Hooligan debate to be able to focus better on 2 colors. And I guess I can run Earwig and Duress in the SB to help eliminate the threat of a Jitte before it happens.

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Have you ever tested TSH? It is very obvious who has tested him, because people who haven't always mention the disynergy with warchief. We have to recall that artifact removal in goblins has to be a reactive strategy, not a proactive strategy, and we must evaluate it from a losing position. In a losing position, you will not have a warchief. So your dream scenario is almost impossible.

An active jitte is very much a problem. I've rarely won games where an active jitte is doing its thing. However, it often does not have an immediate effect and we can take advantage of the tempo sink it creates with goblins. The problem most of the time is that jitte is often a complementary strategy in the deck's that play him. Boarding in Tuktuk's solely for jitte is unwise. I have tried a variation of many things: tinkerer, krosan grip, pithing needle, and even jitte itself. They all sucked if you are boarding them for just jitte and/or vial (except against goblins, where tinkerer is pretty good). However, tin street is definitely boardable if the deck is playing jitte and/or vial, because those matches tempo is very important (as it is in many legacy matchups involving creatures). Some decks are more reliant on jitte and this philosophy may not apply to them, such as Angel Stompy and the new UW Tempo deck, but I have never really had to play those decks.

The best answer to jitte is not artifact removal, it is pyrokinesis. Pyrokinesis should be a 3-of, oftentimes 4-of in every goblins sideboard in a generalized metagame. It complements the deck's strategy better than any other card. I would say snuff out has potential too, but I haven't tested the card very much and it inhibits our strategy to play the control role against decks packing jitte.

I also think it is a very bad mindset to "focus" on a splash. Look at the countertop players. They are very adaptive: sometimes running NO bant, sometimes running confidant, etc, depending on the expected metagame. You can prefer a splash (I prefer monored), but I often don't decide what splash I plan on running till right before the tournament or the day of the tournament. Having access to duals/fetches can make this impossible, but all of us have at least the monored stuff and most of us seem to have the black splash at the ready. Why force yourself into a splash? The black splash is very underperforming against merfolk and zoo in comparison to monored/Rg/Rw, and they are IMO the two most popular decks in legacy.

To sum up the jitte argument, I think it is much more complex than at first glance. Our focus is narrow-minded on dealing with the jitte itself. We have to look at the strategy of the decks that play jitte. I draw a comparison to tempo thresh: how can their bounce/cliques possibly be effective answers to the cards they are supposed to answer? Because their deck is built to prey on the tempo sinks of the other deck, and goblins does this is in a similar way. Do we really need artifact removal? That big of a mana/time investment is often a waste, and I do think that if you are having a problem with jitte, pyrokinesis tends to be the best answer.

@ FoulQ: Since you mentioned UW Tempo, and I can say for sure that boarding in more artifact removal that doesn't help (basically confirm what you said).

TSH can be good at removing Vial or an early Jitte without equip. Both can be helpful, but once Jitte has already gotten a counter set, TSH won't be a good answer, and the sorcery speed prevents it from stopping Jiquip (which is definitely the application method of choice). Jitte will kill the TSH and another card, making it a 2:1 that maybe cost a mana tempo depending on where the other -1/-1 counter went.

You're better off trying to find a way to win instead of playing bad cards that can help you prolong a game where your opponent already got use out of his Jitte. Certainly cards like Krosan Grip which cost a million and don't do anything without an opposing Jitte (and even then only net you one mana tempo) aren't good answers.

Every deck sporting Jitte is going to have at least 15 or 16 creatures. Even if you stop the Jitte, if it cost you too many resources, they will be able to control the board without Jitte. It might seem like Jitte is the cause of the loss because of how quickly it makes the game unwinnable for Goblins, but if your opponent has the time to dig out 4 mana and he's able to change Jitte (i.e. your crackback isn't fatal or very damaging), he's probably happy with his board position already.

Pyrokinesis is much better of an answer for Jitte/Vial than even TSH (which is the only playable of the artifact killers in terms of not sucking completely and handling Jitte). If you can't get solid board control by frying 4 toughness worth of dudes, then you're not going to win that game even if you can answer the Jitte. Oh, and Pyro can stop Jiquip at least for a turn (or two if you roast all his guys). This can buy you time to develop the fatal alpha strike.

I want to echo the previous sentiments about playing against Jitte.

While the merfolk MU is in our favor, builds with Jitte that can vomit out lords can get tricky at times. Games where Jitte is played actually come down to who has Vial out. If they don't, then Jitte can actually retard their development; they spend 1 turn to cast a creature, and 1 or 2 turns to play and equip jitte. Realistically, these turns are around 2-5, depending on their draws and plays. Meanwhile, it takes you 1R on turn 4-5 to kill their equipped creature with an incinerator, or bounce their creature with stingscourger. And some games you can build up a strong board so quickly that attacking with Jitte opens them up to an alpha strike. I feel this should be the general approach to dealing with Jitte (other than in the Zoo MU, but Jitte is the least of your problems there).

As an aside, I recently won a game in a cube draft against a Jitte for n turns. The key is removal and board position. If you manage to out tempo them with removal and develop a strong board position (both possible in the mono-red build), you can even create an instance where it's disadvantageous for them to attack with Jitte.

@foulq I didn't look at it that way. I'll see how much jitte comes up in testing before I decide on artifact hate.

I kind of give goblin tinkerer and pithing needle in combination as a strong anti artifact package. With chieftain in the deck tinkerer becomes better than ever and needle gets down earlier and shuts off anything you need it to... If playing mono red again my board would likely be:

3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Red Elemental Blast

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

I'm also using pithing needle as a 3of in my sideboard, but I hate it. I'm trying out anarchy right now as a 2of to see how it goes, but I don't have much time for testing because of the whole college thing and me not being smart enough to get good grades without studying a lot.

One random trick I'd like to point out. If your opponent is playing daze and you have a warchief in play, think about this trick. Say you have 5 lands in play and an SGC in your hand as well as a warchief in play, and you are suspecting daze from your opponent. Tap all 5 lands and play SGC. There is a decent chance your opponent will daze it, in which case you pay the one R you have floating in your mana pool to pay for daze's cost.

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Again -- That's cheating.

You have to declare any floating mana that you have.

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106.4a If a player passes priority (see rule 115) while there is mana in his or her mana pool, that player announces what mana is there. If any mana remains in a player's mana pool after he or she spends mana to pay a cost, that player announces what mana is still there.

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Ok nevermind I'm an idiot. Well you can't declare the mana is there in a way that isn't cheating? There must be a way that isn't cheating.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

Ok nevermind I'm an idiot. Well you can't declare the mana is there in a way that isn't cheating? There must be a way that isn't cheating.

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Im not a huge rules buff. But is this really a "cheat" move? You are baiting your opponent into attempting to daze SCG by over flooding your mana pool, if they are paying attention, they would realize its a waste of daze, if not, they just walked into a trap...

I can see how this is different than me wastelanding their tundra and them floating mana whethere they have a spell to play or not (damn you Wotc for removing mana burn!) but its not that far off

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

Im not a huge rules buff. But is this really a "cheat" move? You are baiting your opponent into attempting to daze SCG by over flooding your mana pool, if they are paying attention, they would realize its a waste of daze, if not, they just walked into a trap...

I can see how this is different than me wastelanding their tundra and them floating mana whethere they have a spell to play or not (damn you Wotc for removing mana burn!) but its not that far off

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What you're saying is completely legal, morally correct, and (now with mana burn gone) 100% the right play (unless you choose the wrong color of mana!). The proposed scenario with the SGC, while I'm not a judge so I don't know if it's really legal or not, is kinda shady and you would probably look like a douchebag if you did it. It's deceptive. It's more like when you're playing against someone and they forget a mandatory trigger (like a mandatory life gain or something, can't think of an example), and you knowingly don't mention it.

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

Im not a huge rules buff. But is this really a "cheat" move?

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The rule Forbiddian quoted says you have to explicitly announce any remaining mana in your mana pool. How is intentionally breaking a rule to gain an advantage not cheating?

I didn't know of that rule until now, either, btw, so thanks for bringing that up.

So my assumption is that you can try the move on someone who is dumb/not aware of the rule, but if a judge is called then the guy who plays Daze has the option to take it back and the goblin player untaps his land? Unless you confess to being deceptive or do it several times to the same judge or at the same venue, I assume the judge has to let you off with a warning.

So it could be a devious trick, but chances are it would not be very useful in the long run.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

So my assumption is that you can try the move on someone who is dumb/not aware of the rule, but if a judge is called then the guy who plays Daze has the option to take it back and the goblin player untaps his land? Unless you confess to being deceptive or do it several times to the same judge or at the same venue, I assume the judge has to let you off with a warning.

So it could be a devious trick, but chances are it would not be very useful in the long run.

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Now that you know the rules, it's cheating-fraud. If the judge rules that you did it on purpose (which he should, now that you've read the rules), it's a DQNR.

I don't know how many of those you want to eat in your life. Even if the judge doesn't DQ you on the spot (sounds kinda harsh, actually, but since you knew the rule, it seems the only way out of it would be to lie to the official which is obviously another penalty, I assume standard practice is to ask the player, "Did you knowingly violate the rules?"), you still get a gameplay violation that will either upgrade to game loss on the next time or two times later (I can't remember, and I'm not a judge, so maybe ask cdr, but this is definitely a game rules violation), and you will probably back the game state up and your opponent keeps his (essentially useless anyway) daze in hand.


The rule makes perfect sense. It prevents players from using deception (like stacking one land on top of another land, then making five taps and stacking them together and then casting SGC). This just SEEMS like a dick move in general, but the rules actually specifically prevent players from getting an advantage out of this.

Imagine on a cluttered board, it's almost impossible to avoid stacking lands or other creatures together. The rules are formatted to put as much responsibility as possible on the player physically manipulating the lands to be clear and unambiguous and retracts responsibility from the person sitting all the way across the table who has no possible way of seeing if there are two lands stacked together or just one land.

If you cast say, three spells each for 3cc (but you actually had 10 lands out), it's going to be almost impossible for your opponent to see that you indeed tapped four lands to cast the second spell, ninja-floating one mana. It would slow the game down so much if you had to not only verify that your opponent tapped a sufficient amount, but also ensure that he didn't secretly tap additional lands.

Also, in Legacy it also prevents players from using a mana ambiguously, since we have so many dual lands. Like say you're Enchantress. You tap a Savannah Enchanted with a Utopia Sprawl naming Green to cast a Giant Growth. You have to declare immediately which color you're floating, as opposed to drawing a card and then deciding what color the mana in your pool is.

I agree that breaking rules is a bad idea. I have a slight beef with the rule in that I'm not altering anything in the game and each individual thing I'm doing is perfectly legal. But I understand where it is coming from.

Hey Everybody! I am new to Goblins in Legacy, and am hoping to get answers to some of my questions if and when you have the time :)

1. The white splash seems unpopular. I think it's because TSH is better than swords because swords helps mainly match ups that are already good? Also Krosan is better than Disenchant?

2. Would swords help in the zoo matchup? It would definitely help in the fish matchup? (Not that much help is needed there). ANy other important matchups it would help?

3. Would Ethersworn Canonist be a good choice in the side board (white splash assumed) against combo?

4. What splash is best in a meta with a bunch of combo? Or is mono red best? (I understand Goblins is maybe a bad choice in a combo filled meta)

5. Would Chalice of the Void maindeck really be that crazy? You can drop it at 0 and affect a lot of decks and not negatively affect yourself. Also It seems like to me turn 1 lackey or vial followed by a turn 2 chalice at 1 could be really good? It would wreck zoo's day I would think. By the time they hit a pride mage and activate you would be very much ahead (in theory)?

6.At risk of revealing my newbness... I have never seen anyone mention Goblin Grenade...? 5 Damage just seems awesome, but maybe this is "Danger of Cool Things" hehe...

7. I see tons of people use thorn of amethyst instead of chalice in the side... Why?

8. Does someone have a really standard list for a black splash? I have looked on deckcheck and the lists on there vary all over the place for the RG version. Some go so far as to use aunties hovel, other only use 2 badlands etc. Would Cabal therapy actually be a viable card in a black splash? I don't see any of those decks use it.


Thanks for reading!

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Originally Posted by junkdiver

Hey Everybody! I am new to Goblins in Legacy, and am hoping to get answers to some of my questions if and when you have the time :)

1. The white splash seems unpopular. I think it's because TSH is better than swords because swords helps mainly match ups that are already good? Also Krosan is better than Disenchant?

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Everything you would splash white for is better with either black or green. The only advantage is against NO, Wing Shards is better than Warren Weirding but the white is intensive and the application is too narrow to really be worth it. K-Grip & TSH are better than Disenchant.

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2. Would swords help in the zoo matchup? It would definitely help in the fish matchup? (Not that much help is needed there). ANy other important matchups it would help?

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Obviously it would help but I think that's why we have Incinerators. Not too sure about Zoo but we don't need to spend spots on Fish. Plus, REB does Swords' job in that matchup without being off-color.

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3. Would Ethersworn Canonist be a good choice in the side board (white splash assumed) against combo?

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Yes, but Thorn of Amethyst screws them up too and doesn't require a splash.

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4. What splash is best in a meta with a bunch of combo? Or is mono red best? (I understand Goblins is maybe a bad choice in a combo filled meta)

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Depends on the combo. ANT/storm, I would suggest 4 Thorn. Aluren, Enchantress, other enchantment-based decks, green for K-Grip. I am forcing a black splash so I'm running Earwig Squad, but in a combo-heavy meta I would add Thorns.

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5. Would Chalice of the Void maindeck really be that crazy? You can drop it at 0 and affect a lot of decks and not negatively affect yourself. Also It seems like to me turn 1 lackey or vial followed by a turn 2 chalice at 1 could be really good? It would wreck zoo's day I would think. By the time they hit a pride mage and activate you would be very much ahead (in theory)?

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I think you're thinking too much now. Seems bad but only testing will really tell. I'm not gonna do it though.

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6.At risk of revealing my newbness... I have never seen anyone mention Goblin Grenade...? 5 Damage just seems awesome, but maybe this is "Danger of Cool Things" hehe...

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This is a card for Goblin Sligh, which I get the impression is not as good. This card would be sick if it were reprinted as a Tribal Sorcery -- Goblin, though.

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7. I see tons of people use thorn of amethyst instead of chalice in the side... Why?

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Have you looked at the spells we run? Only non-creatures are Vial and Weirding in the black splash.

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8. Does someone have a really standard list for a black splash? I have looked on deckcheck and the lists on there vary all over the place for the RG version. Some go so far as to use aunties hovel, other only use 2 badlands etc. Would Cabal therapy actually be a viable card in a black splash? I don't see any of those decks use it.

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I'm not sure about the Therapy. I'm actually trying a set of Bloodstained Mires along with a singleton Swamp to avoid getting hated by Wasteland. I have Badlands too but I only get them if I really need them. Not sure if this is the best idea. I run 4 other red fetches to snag the Badlands but maybe running Hovels would be better; not sure if the deck thinning is worth the burn. I would actually like some advice on that.

I would add that while Swords does help in the Zoo MU, it doesn't solve the greater problem of our creatures being outclassed by all of their 1 drops. Still, it buys you a turn or so against Zoo at the cost of 1 mana, which is quite perfect for this MU. But if that's what you're looking for, I'd rather stay on color and run Lightning Bolt - it doesn't kill Goyf or Knight, but it can slow down the game long enough to get your CA engine going.
Also, I've found Incinerators to be terrible against Zoo. The amount of investment it takes to make Incinerator workable against Zoo never pays off, unless you're already winning.

If you've played goblins before (eg: casually with friends) and are new to legacy, you might have the impression that goblins is a fast beatdown deck that wins on turn 3/4 with a blitz of Piledrivers and Seige Gangs. Our creatures, for the most part, are the smallest and slowest (in terms of CC) in the format. The deck wins early when it can, but most of the time you'll have to fight a war of attrition. I look at it this way: in most MUs, you're still the aggressor because you can threaten to beat them at any moment - it's just the turn(s) when you attack for the win are usually later in the game when you have more threats than they have answers. It's because of this that the deck wants to run as little non-goblin creatures as possible. Against most of the field, you can simply overwhelm them with CA through Ringleaders. This is also why you don't want to run Goblin Grenades.

Chalice is no good against Zoo. Even assuming you're on the play, spending turn 2 casting Chalice can make you lose the game if they have either Pridemage or Goyf. This is one MU where Lackey just functions to draw out a bolt or force Zoo to hold back 1 or 2 creatures.

I'm not too big on Cabal Therapy. It's randomly useful, but I don't think it improves many important MUs. It's a nice surprise against combo, but discard is not enough to swing the MU in your favor, especially when it's setting you back on tempo.

Also, I think Duress makes more sense to run against combo than Therapy.

Tomorrow I'm going to a GPT Madrid, it will be my first magic tournament in ages. I settled on Goblins as there is probably too much GY hate to run Dredge, here is my list:

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Skirk Prospector
1 Warren Instigator

4 Wasteland
16 Mountain

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Magus of the Moon

I realise Prospector is probably terrible the question is is he less terrible than Fanatic? He's equally nasty against dredge but does give you the option of laying a Chieftain/Warchief/Magus on turn 2. I am also unsure of the Pyrostatic Pillars but don't know what else to put in to combat storm decks.

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Originally Posted by ddt15

Tomorrow I'm going to a GPT Madrid, it will be my first magic tournament in ages. I settled on Goblins as there is probably too much GY hate to run Dredge, here is my list:

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Skirk Prospector
1 Warren Instigator

4 Wasteland
16 Mountain


SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Magus of the Moon

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I would begin by fixing the bolded items. Run no fewer than 22 lands, even in mono-red. 23-24 is the consensus in the B or Bg splash. Mono-red relies on 'cheating' on mana via lackies, vials, and (sometimes) gators to dump guys onto the field. There is no way you will ever beat zoo with this list, as you will never draw the lands to start you CA engine, and you are not running mogg war marshals. I doubt that using Skirk prospector as a red blood pet is correct, especially eschewing vials and lands to do so. I would run a max of 2 SGCs, as mogg war marshal performs a similar role much earlier in the game, often buying you two-three turns against zoo and like aggro decks. I would lower the singscourger count, as you are not even maxing the number of gators to force through- run a tutorable one-of if you must. I would start with:

4 Wasteland
18 Mountain

4 Aether vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator

3-? Goblin Piledriver
3-? Goblin Warchief
2-? Goblin Chieftan

and tweak to your liking. Playtest, playtest, playtest. You do not want to be cold to both zoo and combo. It then seems like a pretty nitch meta you would want to play this in. Try and get your zoo MW% to at least 40 combined pre and post board. (war marshals will really help with this, and you may want to up the incinerators count to 4) IMO cut the magus in the SB, as red-splash is by far prominent in tempo thresh, and bant-style decks almost always run 4 hierarchs and some number of basics. Aggro decks will all be able to bolt him should he become a problems. I would recommend relics over crypts so you have some relevant boards against tempo-thresh. 3 Boartusk Liege should be in the SB as the only way in mono-red to beat double plague. Pillar is likely pising upwind, as even with it you will likely have to mull into it and two lands to even stand a chance against combo, and it's still not even close to an auto-win if you land it. Play something more useful in your rough, but winnable MUs.... like soemthing to deal with jitte. Tinkerer and/or some number of the new 3R 2/2 ally goblin is probably the way to go.