Then I'll say what Philip would say if he cared enough to chime in: don't make changes to a 75 unless you know what you're doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
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Then I'll say what Philip would say if he cared enough to chime in: don't make changes to a 75 unless you know what you're doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
I loose too much to MUD.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
MUD is great against cantrips decks (Elves included), combo and Miracle. With this I have said like 80% of the format..
In my opinion it will see much more play and we need to be prepared against it. 1 Disenchant and 1 Wear/Tear, in my opinion are not enough.
I see plays like
turn 1 Lightning Greaves
turn 2 Metalworker - > Ugin or Kuldotha Forgemaster, switch from worker to kuldotha the Greaves. Go search for Staff of Domination, switch the greaves back to Metalworker, GG
or they can always make a turn 1 Chalice or Trinisphere..
Name 3 solid ways of beating mud with a 4 ponder list.Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinsplayer
Also, to whomever posted it, stop putting words in someone's mouth. It may very well be what Philip would say, but until he says it, it's what you say. The smug in this thread often borders on tangible levels.
Edit: Also, mess with your list all you want, if you are having trouble with a match-up, do whatever you have to do to figure out how to win. Testing never hurts anything ever.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
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Originally Posted by Einherjer
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Originally Posted by Einherjer
It seems like a bad idea to sideboard out 4 of your best card to find your 1-of sideboard card against MUD. I know they play chalice of the void, but I still don't think I'd want to bring my tops out. Here are some cards you can consider against MUD (Disclaimer: I haven't tested these cards, but they are what I would consider testing first. I'm sure somebody else that has gotten testing in has a better suggestion.):
- Serenity: Usually a board wipe + time walk, but sucks as a topdeck if you need an answer right away. Can be problematic if they ramp into Ugin, so it's not my favorite anymore.
- Shattering Spree: This gets through chalice of the void quite nicely due to how replicate works. Heavy red is a downside of course, but you can use it early to get rid of some of their cards. Can take out metalworker right away, which is nice.
You just shouldn't try to win the 12-post matchup, in my opinion. Playing cards to make an "unwinnable" matchup maybe winnable is just foolish, especially when that deck is such a low percentage of the meta. But, if you really want something to help in that matchup blood moon is not the card for it (although moon is way more useful in other places). Instead, you should play Ruination or From the Ashes (I'm really not sure which is better). It's a shame Bribery is too slow, because that would be really funny....
At the end of the day I think these decks just require too specialized of answers and that you don't even gain that much win percentage by trying to force answers to them. Unless they're a significant percentage of your meta I would probably ignore them in your sideboarding strategies. If your meta is small though, you might end up vs. that 12-post or MUD player every week though, which would force you to adapt of course.
I would go the Japanese route if 12-Post becomes a significant portion of the meta and play 2 Wastelands.
MUD isn't a horrible MU but it is tougher. However, they can rarely beat a Blood Moon + Moat (yes, I play this card. Yes, it is cute. Yes, it wins games, and my philosophy with Miracles is your non-land permanents should win you games), since then you just FoW/counter their Ugin and Swords their Hellkite.
It's not really about that. It's not about caring. But before we get to that, yes, that's what I'd say. Here's a quote from my latest article:Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Start at a well-proven list. I know net-decking isn’t very liked, especially in communities of Eternal formats, but that’s just casual nonsense. If you want to succeed at any given tournament you want to maximize your chances, in every way possible. Priding yourself in playing your very own deck is something you can certainly do at your local tournament, but a Grand Prix is no place for that. Take a well proven list and test the hell out of it before you change anything. I’ll get to what “testing” actually means a little later.
One of the worst things to do is to take a well proven list and make some changes before actually trying it out. If somebody wins with a list, then word has it that they knew what they were doing. Most of the slots were filled with a purpose in mind, most cards chosen in hindsight. Changing a Flusterstorm to a Spell Pierce just because you like it better is a sin. Nothing less.
So, to adress the point of me not "caring enough" to chime in: I have a couple of reasons why I don't participate in discussions right now:
1) GP Lille. I think that speaks for itself, right?
2) Redundant mistakes. People make mistakes, and that's fine. And I pointed them out, again, again and again. But whenever somebody asks the same question again or does the same mistake, then I have a hard time seeing a reason to explain it again.
3) Time. I just don't have that much time for Magic at the moment and cannot engage in every discussion that relates to Miracles.
I hope I could explain why I don't chime in at every occasion right now.
If you have any questions, make sure to check out the AMA I did last week, and if there are any questions left, let me know.
Oh, and Null Rod is unplayable. Just in case there was any confusion about it. It's the beef of the vegans or the shotgun of the taekwondoin. That's how unplayable it is. But many people play unplayable cards in their lists, so you might be in good company. One way or another.
Greetings
@Playing against MUD generally and a word on Null Rod in your SB: I have beaten MUD before with stock ponder lists that had no specific hate for them. I am talking about mostly the Cloudpost variant of MUD, though I guess some people still play Welder MUD as I played against it recently on modo for whatever reason. It's not as bad as Eldrazi Post, but it's still hard. Our role in the MU is one of aggro-control, we need to be somewhat proactive, get some thing going sooner rather than later, while answering their threatening cards at the same time. Our goal is to kill them before they play something we can't handle. In sideboarding you want to bring in more win conditions and cards that help you interact with them. Anything that is a one mana spell I am hesitant to bring in unless it really helps in the math up so as to avoid dead draws when there is a chalice on 1 on the table. Oh, and in sideboarding I shave or sometimes cut all my Ponders depending on how much I have to bring in. Yes, I just said that even while still strongly preferring Ponder Miracles to any other variant.
This plan has worked out pretty well for me in the past. Their deck is certainly more powerful than ours, especially since they've started playing Ugin. However, they have no way to filter their draws and very few outlets of Card Advantage that draws them more cards (I think a lot of lists play a Staff of Nin and some Coercive Portal). Thus, our way of beating them is by being able to more consistently enact our game plan and sometimes making their deck even more inconsistent via Vendilion Cliquing them or Jace Fateseals. This means keeping your precious Sensei's Divining Tops in. Many games I've won against MUD is because of that card.
And so, the point is you can beat MUD Post with a stock Ponder list if you play tightly and sideboard correctly. However, if you're playing in a local meta where there's a good chance you'll run into this deck often, sure, play some hate for it to make it easier on yourself. In addition to what has been suggested, maybe try out Back to Basics. This was idea was given to me by one of my Magic friends who plays MUD post regularly himself. Gives a similar effect to Blood Moon but is actually better against this deck. But for the love of god, don't play Null Rod or anything else that messes with your Tops. Just don't.
EDIT: In relation to Jace in this MU, in general I prefer using Jace as a Brainstorm machine. I've done that a lot in this MU too, but it's really game state dependent. Like if they have lightning greaves or cavern on board that may make me more inclined to use Jace fateseal instead to mess with their deck and/or go for ultimate.
This a bit of a departure from the previous conversation about Null Rod, but I had a question regarding miracle variants.
I currently play the legends list and I love the main deck interaction with Venser/Clique/Snaps, while I understand the strengths and weakness of each variant, I'm curious why people prefer the Ponder lists over the Legends list. Is it more personal preference than anything else, or do people think the ponder list is more consistent?
no one can speak for "the people" so it's pointless to discuss what does the people think.Quote:
Originally Posted by skyout
If you look at the SCG result closer, outside of Lossett, no one can play his 75 well. Musser did it once, but that was before Dig. All the Legend builds that Top 8 at SCG circuit are either before Dig, or in the one-day IQ, or done by Lossett only (he day 2 with it at Worcester). The most successful build involving Legend build at GP-size event is the GP Kyoto winner, which runs a Ponder-Legend hybrid. I don't see Reid Duke's 3 Digs list generating buzz and getting popular either.
In short, Ponder Miracles is the most straightforward entry point for all who are interested in Miracles.
I'm sure that it's also consistency. You don't see Legends builds consistently placing high because they lose to themselves more frequently that the Ponder build does. Joe is just such a master pilot at his list that he can get out of many jams most players can't.
For me, I started off with the Legends build actually, and I enjoyed the raw power when I could get the wheels turning, but when I didn't draw gas the deck just fell flat on its face. Ponder fixes a lot of those problems at the expense of raw power.
Recent SCG tournament shows us that you Miracle players only got a single player in the whole of top 16 who made 8th (so top 8). So here is my question? How was there only a single Miracles player who made it in the top 16 places? I'm usually seeing Miracles place top places constantly. I have hardly played any Miracles decks or against any so what exactly was different at this tournament that made Miracles players have a bad time?
It's only one event, and people have started to learn to play against Miracles, pack good sideboard cards for Miracles, and play decks with strong Miracles matchups. I don't expect to see some kind of major fall off Miracles' results anytime soon, but I do expect them to come down from the stratosphere over the next few months.
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Originally Posted by Brentane
Add in that many Miracles players are not the greatest at the deck (expected of the most popular entry-into-Legacy deck) and thus are punished for not knowing the format/their deck, and it explains many of the results you'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Also, at least in the States, I'm not sure Ponder Miracles has quite caught on just yet (it's getting there, though). Many people are still going for the Lossett build, and if you aren't Lossett then chances are you will do poorly with that list.
On a totally separate note, for Joe, looks like Cavern's a good idea, Mentor??? Gun-shy?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=85809
I sense a change in the wind, or mind.
3 Vendilion and 2 Karakas find me perfectly.. I just can't be fine with Venser.
Joe, if you read me, can you help me to understand the reason for a massive use of Venser?
I am an unapologetic Philipp Schoenegger fan and I've been playing his Ponder Miracles list for a year, updating in strict accordance with the master. I've read everything he's written on the deck during that time, have listened to and taken notes from every interview and podcast. I cannot represent the Legends side of the question, nor will I put words into Philipp's mouth and attempt to say what he would say. I know what he did say, and that's enough. This question is addressed most thoroughly on the "Miracle Men" podcast, episode 37: http://everydayeternalpodcast.com/ep...7-miracle-men/Quote:
Originally Posted by skyout
What I find so attractive about the Ponder build is its unique collision of cantrips and literature. This is the only format where we get to play 4 Ponder 4 Brainstorm 4 Sensei's Top, and it leads to this crazy control deck that's been taking down tournament after tournament for a very long time. I don't think it's a coincidence that the other top deck is Omnitell, now that it isn't a clunky 3 card combo deck, running the same number of cantrips spells. If you think cantrips are really, really good then Ponder Miracles looks great.
Literature is a weird reason to play a deck, but it's important. Anyone who does as I did and reads, listens to, and studies all the stuff Philipp put out over the course of the last few years on Miracles (and remembers it, and as long as they have a reasonable proficiency at Magic) will learn a lot... and start winning a lot. For what other deck is this true? I search in vain over the whole history of the game to find a deck that has anything to compare with this. He's not alone, there are other players and writers who have contributed a lot of important work, but for this particular deck he truly stands out.
Joe Lossett has tremendous achievements with the deck, he's a ferocious player. I do not get the sense that I could pick up his build and start playing it successfully, however. Many have tried and failed. Why should I be any different? Reid Duke has been successful with his distinct creatureless build. I read all of his stuff, tried his build, and I didn't get it. What's with the Mountain? Is there some place online where he explains how this card is not awful? I do not get the sense that either Reid Duke or Joe Lossett, for all their glory, would care about how I'm doing with the deck. I mean no disrespect to them. I have never spoken with either, and neither have I had opportunity to.
Philipp Schoenegger, on the other hand, I have contacted. He answered, and he was very helpful. His example inspired me to teach others the game. So while I can't say why "people" prefer this or that build, I know why I'm playing Ponders.
1 tournament top 16 is a very small sample size... But people have been adapting to beat miracles. I mean just look at the other decks in that top 16. A few months ago, while playing miracles I felt like I ran into bad (or even) matchups very infrequently. That top 16 has maybe 4 good/even matchups (RUG, BUG, Deathblade and Lands). The rest are all tough to beat. People are playing more stuff like bosieju, cavern of souls, young pyromancers, and SB hate cards like null rod. Miracles is definitely less good today in the meta today than it was a few months ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brentane
Also as others have said, a lot of the US miracles players are just playing it because "its the best deck", and they really bad at playing it.
Against MUD with miracle, Jace is the key imo. So you need to find land every turn which may be hard cause of chalice at 1 or trinisphere. I also try to keep forces for crucial threat. If i'm on the play and i can play a top, i'll probably not fow chalice @1. On the draw i will. If you have an uncontested jace on board, it should be hard for him to kill it. You will then gain a lot of time to build more mana, find wear/tear/disenchant or entreat to kill him in 1 or 2 turn
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Originally Posted by Lormador
Nice post Lormador. I think this is one of the best posts in this thread for a while now. Thank you for it. It was so good that I'm now putting part of it in my sig.
In response to the part of about cantrips and Miracles, I actually have an article coming up about this topic that should be posted on Eternal Central soon. I hope you enjoy it. I'll post a link to it here once it's released.
You Brainstorm a little or go high with Fateseal then they Use Kuldotha and Fetch a Inkwell Leviathan or a Spine of Ish Sash..
Can't really help that matchup without Null Rod or at very least Cursed Totem
I can't even wrap my head around boarding out SDT and bringing in Null Rod in any matchup. How many MUD players do you regularly face that you need to warp your boarding strategy that much? And what MUD builds are running Inkwell Leviathan?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
I'd really like to see the list you're currently running, sideboard included, I feel like you may be in a metagame that is VERY different from ours.
every MUD I found has 2 uncounterable Sundering Titan (Golem in Cavern of Souls) and 1 sb Leviathan for Miracle.
In case the firdt thing they drop is Metalworker they just fetch for Staff of Dominance..
Hey guys, yesterday i made top8 to a 100 player tournament ( Tarmogeddon 12) i posted a short report here if you want to revive my little adventure, i'd like to thank Philipp, Joe and all you guys, without this forum i would totally not be able to reach this little goal!
THANKS
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...onder-Miracles
Metalworker doesn't get Staff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Just mull down to Blood Moon and 3 lands if the MU is going that poorly for you. I can't but imagine you're doing something (many things) wrong, though.
Poron please stop mentioning Null Rod. your meta must be from a different planet. There are so many better options than playing Null Rod. Just check vintage sideboards and see what they do against shopdecks.
you could use energy flux for example, or hurkyls recall or humility or back to basics if you want (they have disadvantages obviously) BUT DONT BOARD OUT SENSEI'S FUCKING DIVINING FUCKING TOP and dont bring in FREAKING NULL ROD.
they fetch with KuldothaQuote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
So they have a Metalworker, and a Kuldotha Forgemaster, and 2 other artifacts in play? What turn is this? What have you been doing to let them get to that point?
Here are some cards that help against MUD: Blood Moon, Engineered Explosives (blows up Chalices for 0), Meddling Mage on Staff or Chalice, Back to Basics (better than Blood Moon in this specific matchup), Disenchant, Wear//Tear, Council's Judgment, Seal of Cleansing. Hell, I'd run Shatterstorm over Null Rod.
Don't get me wrong, it's a bad matchup, but certainly not bad enough to use a card that shuts down the #1 reason to run Miracles in the first place. This isn't like Rest in Peace vs Re-animator where it slightly inconveniences you but totally screws them. You get a Null Rod out, and guess what, they just lock you down with Chalices and Trinispheres anyways and beat you down with Lodestone Golems and Wurmcoil Engines.
You are right about Back to Basics and Eng Exp.
I just find that matchup terrible because every card is a threath.
Chalice, Trinisphere, Kuldotha, Titan, Colossus, Wurmcoil, 4x Lodestone Golem (uncounterable and 5 strenght).
Oh yes, Ugin.
I don't play MUD but when a MUD player player on games 2-3 auto keeps their hand of 7 against Miracles is it fair to assume they are planning to power out a chalice of some form on the first two turns or so?
When it comes to sideboarding cards, use cards that hurt your opponent more but only slightly annoy you. Null rod destroys SDT while they still have a wurmcoil with the ability to beat your face in.
I fear much more Sundering Titan.
Uncounterable and 99% of the time it kills 4 to 6 lands when you see it.
Really.. I need something here.. Hurkyl's Recall may be and Meddling Mage on that as well as Cursed Totem to block Kuldotha
Hurkyl's Recall is a much more reasonable answer than Null Rod, so yeah I'd try that first. Cursed Totem is way too specific, if you're that scared of Kuldotha just save a counterspell or StP for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
You still haven't said anything about your build and how many MUD decks you actually face regularly. I'm assuming you're on the Ponder build, but do you really have multiple MUD players in your area that you play against often?
This really confuses me. If you're that scared of Kuldotha, then why aren't you only keeping hands with StP or Force to deal with it? Seems like this is just a case of making sure you have plenty of counter magic and mulliganing as appropriate to insure it. Sure they have lots of threats, but in general you should be saving your removal and counter magic for the things that actually kill you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Because it happens that they have CotV 1x on the bf..
I can only rely on FoWs normally.. which are card pure disadvantage and they can, anyway to it after a Trinisphere when you have tapped out for Jace.
To me, it's a nightmare matchup. Anyway, if I'm the only one, just don't consider MUD and let's talk back of Grixis...
You can also try asking on the MUD thread for suggestions on how to approach the matchup and some cards you could play against them, if you're not finding what you want here.
Also, I will reiterate that you haven't mentioned at all how much you expect to face MUD, yet you seem to be freaking out about the deck. Understanding how much you're going to play against a deck is very important when considering how much (at all) you want to try to build your deck around beating the deck. Nobody is saying the matchup isn't a bad matchup, so it's not that "you're the only one having trouble." People just aren't inclined to care much about playing against decks which represent a small portion of most metagames.
Another angle you can approach is trying to prevent their creatures from doing much. You can try Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, or Moat to all deal with this. Humility is particularly powerful because they can't use metalworker to still cast expensive things, and they can't use forgemaster to search up Spine of Ish Sah. That said, 4 mana spells can be rough to cast (at all or even in a timely manner) in face of lodestone golems and wastelands.
every time time I won was with an alt-win Entreat..
Only in those matches where I didn't see any Titans around..
Humility, good one.
Humility, Blood Moon and counterspell on Ugin win the game.
Plowshares, Terminus, Council's Judgment and Wear Tear can help us.
I play frequently vs MUD with the Ein list and I remove the Ponder to decrease the spells with CC1.
If you go in the previous pages you can read an analisys of this matchup i've make months ago.
I've played my fair share of games against MUD on MTGO, and i do echo what everyone else is saying. Null Rod is a horrible tool against them.
Also, as much as MUD does get blazing fast and ridiculous starts, there are also hands where after powering out a chalice and trinisphere, and are in top deck modes. i believe the reason MUD isn't taking down more tournaments is that the variance of the deck is just too high.
Against MUD, here is how i usually board.
Out
4 x Counterbalance
1 x STP
1 x Terminus
In
1 x Engineered Explosives
1 x Wear/Tear
1 x Counterspell
1 x Blood Moon
2 x Vendilion Clique
1 x Elspeth, Knight Errant
Game plan is simple. Let them cast everything that doesnt kill you, and keep your counterspells for things that do. These cards hurt, but are still manageable.
- Trinisphere
- Grim Monoliths
- Sphere of Resistance
- Lodestone Golem
- and if you already have a top in play, Chalice of the void.
What you want to do is Make land drops. Pressure with an early V Clique or Entreat for 1-2 if possible. They take alot of damage from their tombs, so cliques or even snaps can be a reasonable clock. Be careful with Blood Moon. Make sure you have access to at least 2U and 1W land before dropping it. (if not, at least an active top)
Finally, hope that they lose to their top decks. If MUD draws well, it is very unlikely that we can win anyway.
As a former MUD player, I endorse the advice that was just given. I especially endorse the note about Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage, or a small Entreat pressuring their life total. Ancient Tomb really does add up fast, I'd often drop to 8 or 10 life just from my own lands with that deck. If the deck gives you this plan, run with it because the MUD player is definitely not expecting to get killed by little blue creatures during the middlegame. They're looking for either the opening hand blowout or the gradual effects of threat density (via Cavern of Souls) taking down the match.
I played against a lot of Miracles players (it's the reason to play MUD and tolerate the variance) back then and I definitely usually won. The games I didn't win involved Vendilion Clique beatdown, Jace fatesealing my already shaky deck into oblivion, or all my robots getting plowed because I didn't have a Chalice.
I don't think the matchup is as bad as all that, but there are a lot of "feel bad" losses where the Miracles player just never had a chance to do anything, i.e. T1 Chalice@1, T2 Cavern --> Metalworker, T3 Forgemaster. That's a "feel bad" hand against anything that didn't open with Force.
To get back to the point of Grixis Control:
I kind of like boarding out Snapcasters and Dig against them to bring in RIP. The deck isn't half as good when it can't rely on it's draw engine or double Therapy.
Also: Stoneforge + Batterskull is insane here.