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How do you manage to screw up with Sun Titan..?Quote:
Originally Posted by mstephenson
Wouldn't it be easier for you to just start with one of the cookiecutter lists, learn to play it well and start changing it to your liking from there..? I'm getting the idea you're missing a lot of little intricacies of the deck. Piloting this deck properly is actually more difficult than one would think. It takes an intimate knowledge of your own list and a good understanding of your various MUs.
When their only valid victim is Jace, yes. Which happened at EW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
http://i.imgur.com/kjbAoLY.png
http://i.imgur.com/kjbAoLY.png
Made some changes, bought a 26 ticket Atraxa and has been very useful. Currently 2-0 in games against miracles.
I am hopeful for this magical christmasland EDH deck.
Interesting list. Do you board kambal only vs combo (quite rare online)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Do you like the 2ts in the main? Me and square have been liking them so far
For what MUs do you intend to bring in Kambal (other than ANT/TES/Burn)?
And why Kambal over, say, Lost Legacy?
Often times I see new NicFit players who are making mistakes with there Zenith. The answer to the question " why you didn't search for xy?" is always I didn't know that I have it.
Another problem is that you have many options with much mana and as a new inexperienced player you are likely to choose the wrong option.
And of course cabal therapy needs a good knowledge about other decks around you.
Looks cool. Don't you just autolose to Lands? The only interaction anywhere in the deck is Extirpate as far as I can tell, and your clock isn't exactly fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Do you think 4 sweeper,Vindicate and 3 Decay is better than running some copies of Swords / Path? Seems like the exile removal could be relevant (and your lategame is good enough that you aren't too worried about the Swords lifegain).
In 4-colour I liked Deathrite over the fourth Veteran / STE, just because you're naturally a little short on basic lands and it makes your topdecks a bit better / gives you maindeck interaction with graveyard strategies. A Scavenging Ooze is also hilarious with Atraxa.
The manabase I ran was similar to yours, with:
+1 Fetchland
+1 Phyrexian Tower
-1 Savannah
-1 Tropical Island
-1 Swamp
@Neo: Another common mistake is misjudging whether or not they're the beatdown at any given time in a match.
@Arianrhod
How'd you feel about updating the primer at some point soon? We've just had some new lists appearing with the Atraxa builds, but I think we have a pretty consistent set of options at the moment.
- BUG (Birthing Pod, Planeswalkers)
- Abzan (Rhinos, Stoneforge, Spike Combo, Enchantment)
- Jund (Sneak Attack, Punishing, Scapewish)
- 4-Color (Atraxa, Punishing Rhinos)
Anything I'm missing that might want including?
There is more combo than you give credit on mtgo, at least my luck has shown. I would always give it consideration seeing as its a very solid effect. Each noncreature cast by the opponent negates a tendrils. I am not sure it is where we need to be but I believe it deserves a shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
the 2 ts have been good. I felt the deck was without many tools to combat decks game 1 so I threw those in.
combo and control: ideally they cantrip for the answer and then waste it which seems fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I think lost legacy is an atrocious card that purposely punishes you for getting cards out of your opponents hand. I would rather pay a red for a better spell that cant be force'd
Lands wasn't really on my radar and I may need to make some room for diverse removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
3 deed, 1 deluge, 1 vindicate are great. 3 decays are absolutely necessary with all the blue online.
I will always play 4 vet/4 therapy.
Path is so much better than stp in nic fit. I won't argue bc it seems stupid to me and illogical.
I could see a scooze in the mix but I doubt its on par with the cards im playing in regards to power level.
I don't know how you can play 3 vet and a tower in 4color fit, seems like you didn't think that through
Thank you for your polite responses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
You never actually said why you aren't playing Path, incidentally.
The more colours you play, the more duals/fetches your mana base wants. That gives you less slots for basic lands, which means drawing the second/third Veteran Explorer is a lot worse in 4c (where you play 5-6 basics) than in 3c (where you can play 6-7 basics easily) since it's less likely to actually have targets, especially if you're also playing STE.
Deathrite, on the other hand, gets stronger in 4c decks because:
- you're more likely to get wastelanded off your splash colours, which Deathrite helps against
- you probably only need your splash colour once or twice a game, so a Deathrite can be enough by itself.
What's the deluge for anyway? 3 deed should be enough in the way of board wipes. Throwing in some number of Paths (2 maybe?) would be an idea though. You really don't have answer to Marit Lage otherwise. I'm not sure what your board is like though. Some number of Extirpate are good, but they could be a bit slow against a quick Marit Lage, since a lands player could probably just jam it asap against you. Then again, I don't know what the online meta is like, might be almost no lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
I'm not saying we should skip on ramp, just that deck already has plenty as is to go off. The base core of a Nic Fit deck seems to be 4 Vet and 2 DRS, maybe a Sakura if you want, and a Tower thrown in there if your mana won't hate you for it. Between all of that (And 4x GSZ to grab an explorer if you only have half the combo. I'm not sure if it's right to zenith for an explorer on T2, but everytime I've done it it's worked out so far), that's enough to get your engine going. Anything more than that seems excessive, and I'd rather have some extra removal than extra ramp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I think you're probably right with going with a 3rd DRS over a 4th Explorer but I also think you want to see an Explorer in your opening hand as often as possible, even in four color manabases. Which means running 4 to maximise your percentages. Having to zenith for one is okay, but it'd be better and faster just to have it in your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Sun Titan is dope, especially with the option to blow up and recur a Deed every turn. Grave Titan is often just better because it helps when you're behind a lot more, but Sun Titan is still really good.Quote:
Originally Posted by mstephenson
I run 5 ramp creatures and 4 zeniths base, with an additional ramp spell if I'm playing 6-drops.
I generally play more low-cmc options (Stoneforge, etc) so I can see the justification for running 7 mana guys if you're running 9 4cmc+ planeswalkers like Ricardio.
My apologies, I always get flustered when the path over stp debate comes up because its the same thing everytime and I feel like im stuck in groundhog day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I can see playing a drs but im locked in pretty hard to 4 vet. I need to play my spells and vet does that. I am open to suggestions but there are a few untouchables for me atm and that's one of them.
Deluge is 3 mana wipe which I feel like I need on occasion, same case for vindicate.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfulcake
Paths are definitely on my mind now and lands is definitely a matchup I need to think about.
The meta has some lands but I should be moderately ready for most matchups.
I agree. the math on pw fit is odd but at this moment, its more along the lines of a concept. I doubt it 6-3s a 9 rounder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
This is a good plan. We're also to the point where our thread is getting bulky again and needs retired / reborn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
If anyone is bored and can track down links for video feature coverage or links to particularly noteworthy finishes (say, tournaments with 50 people or more), that would be an amazing help. Writing the actual primer doesn't take me that long usually, the problem is the clerical work pulling together everything at the end.
If people have specific versions / lists for the various archetypes, now/soon would be a good time to post them. I think we're somewhere around here:
-) BUG
Pod
Planeswalkers (largely anecdotal)
Deadeye (largely anecdotal)
-) Abzan
Pod
SE Fit
Control
Rhino
Stoneforge (is this distinct enough from SE?)
Enchantment (fringe as yet, but worth noting)
-) Jund
Sneak
Scapewish (largely anecdotal, sadly)
PFire Control
-) 4c
Atraxa White (core abzan)
Atraxa Blue (core bug)
Punishing Rhinos
-) Frontiers
RUG
Reanimator
Others?
It's kind of amazing how much more work GBW has had, as a color combination, beyond BUG or Jund.
Instead of cutting your Vets, have you considered that 4c actually wants to cut down on business spells? Giving up quantity for quality? That way you keep Vets, and you keep a basic count. It just means that the cards you're casting need to be really good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
SFM builds are very different from SE build. They're trying to do some of the same things such as including mana sinks all along the curve but SFM plays fewer bodies, and less card manipulation. I think it's closer to Rhino, but instead of Siege Rhinos you're putting an equipment on something and hitting even harder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I think it's just because there are more 'build around' cards in white that work well with the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Academy Rector / Starfield
Stoneforge Mystic
Siege Rhino
Sigarda
All play into the deck's strengths while providing strong game ending threats. You also get unconditional removal in Swords/Path.
The build around cards in red see just as much attention:
Sneak Attack
Scapeshift / Valakut
There's just less of them. Punishing Fire Control has trouble because of its lack of access to Swords-type unconditional removal (important for a non-tempo based control deck) and its lack of resilient finishers (although Nissa, Vital Force may be worth it now and change that).
Blue has a few build arounds / payoff cards too:
JTMS
Deadeye Navigator / other game ending bombs
Blue has the problem of, while its bombs end the game effectively, they don't have an actually fast clock (which sucks) and most of your good creatures aren't Zenith-able (which also sucks), but the blue lists tend to actually control the game pretty well.
Basically Blue can control the game but not end it, and Red can end the game quickly, but not reliably, and can't answer some things. White brings both universal answers and resilient threats, so it's the easiest place to slot in whatever supplemental cards you prefer.
Birthing Pod bypasses the 'Green creatures are just better' problem which is why it sees play in BUG and Jund builds as well as Abzan, I think?
Just a few thoughts -Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfulcake
1) If you're running white, I totally agree that you really should run 1-2 path or swords. It's one of the biggest attractions to the white splash.
2) I've never understood the theory between 2-3 deathrite shamans. If you have a meta full of graveyard decks then sure, go for it, but Nic Fit starts behaving like Nic Fit around 4 CMC (tireless tracker is for all intents and purposes a four-drop, rhino, meren, atraxa, etc). Your second, and especially your third DRS is taking up space better occupied by the removal that gets you to the late game, which we dominate.
3) Not running 4 explorers is silly. The core of the deck is therapy + explorer. Explorer is a great chump blocker in situations where a goyf or eldrazi are beating down, buys you time against delver or ramps you into the late game, etc. We play SDT to avoid drawing explorers as the game goes later.
4) I've recently preferred Grave Titan + Primeval Titan for my two 6-drop slots. PT fetches stronghold and tower and you've got a great recursion engine going for grindy matchups and the Grave Titan will end the game as long as your opponent doesn't play a Terminus.
Enter Saskia. A reliable red way to quickly end the game, while still forcing you to keep access to white for Path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
It's definitely a build I'm interested in playing with but I haven't completely figured out how to build it yet. I think it's base Jund splashing white and gives up Sigarda in favor of Nissa at 5.
It's definitely not worth more than a footnote in the 4c/frontier section at the moment, but it's among the things I really want to try out when I get a chance.
I think Pod is most popular in BUG because cards like Clique, Strix, and Glen Elendra are just obvious value to pod into, not to mention the Brainstorm allure. The white cards just don't interact as well. I actually think Pod would be a good Atraxa shell myself.
Does Saskia actually give you much that White doesn't already do, though? Atraxa does something White doesn't (be a Zenithable Baneslayer that costs less than 6 mana), and helps against aggro decks because of that. Saskia isn't really good against aggro decks (since she doesn't do much unless you're attacking) but she also loses to Karakas just like Atraxa does, so she's basically only relevant for putting fast pressure onto combo decks. Is that good enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
PREACH! AGREED on all fronts.Quote:
Originally Posted by gth842s
so saskia gives your creatures bad double strike. All of atraxa text is relevant. I got to add a 4th counter to a vial, that was hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Kaya is insane. I would argue that she is on power with Nissa VF or possibly stronger.
Ulted tamiyo against miracles, talk about sandbox fun haha
Considering combo is where we're weakest, yes. Just compare the clocks, ignoring mana complications for a moment. Lets say you're playing a deck of 4x Seige Rhino. If you double Rhino you hit for 6 on a drain, 4 on turn 1, 8 on turn 2 for 18 total.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
But lets say you were running a 3-1 split on Rhino/Saskia and you get to play both. On T1 you hit for 3 on the drain and 4 on the Rhino. Saskia enters and you hit for 14 doing 21 total. And on top of that, thanks to the vigilance you still have a blocker.
Saskia hits hard and fast while still allowing blocks in most circumstances. Thanks to haste you can play around Karakas too, merely the threat of Saskia shorts your opponent a mana.
It's better than bad. Just Saskia alone comes in hasted, hits the Miracles player for 3, then redirects another 3 to JTMS. And that's assuming you had nothing else on the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Haven't seen it mentioned yet but for those that care,
Sneak Fit was mentioned here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...h-jonathan-orr
And that Rhino Atraxa list was mentioned here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...ssic-knoxville
@Ricardio and Rubble, how is the online metagame doing? Has D&T started appearing more yet? Has miracles subsided at all? I've stopped playing entirely now (queue sad violins) overwatch is more convinient and fun..
We are assuming: we have the mana, it resolves, they don't kill it, they have a jtms and santa brings us what we want. 4 cmc haste vigilant 3/4 legend that gives pseudo double strike is not what im in the market for. I have had saskia played against me twice and neither time did I feel at all threatened by it. forgive my inherent negativity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
As the cards get better distributed and prices go down, im sure d&t will rise but its slow going atm and most of the decks are miracles or ant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
I don't blame you, this is my downtime before LoL season starts.
Online players like their miracles, delvers and eldrazi. Ant is still present but much rarer..I assume storm players don't appreciate a format that revolves around either counterbalance or chalice of the void.
Due to irl stuff I have just been toying around with brews, nothing serious
E: It is admittedly very, very fun stomping blue control decks with sneak fit, the online meta is a blue orgy after all. Cherson yesterday spectated a match I was playing and can confirm the satisfaction.
Nothing better than dropping lines like "Today we'll have pasta for dinner, and when I say pasta I mean spaghetti" while empath-->sneaking in Emrakul against some islands and a Jace. I'm Italian after all..
I think Saskia works really well in a Junk Fit shell more than a Jund/PFire shell. You throw down all of your usual threats, and then when you've got a rhino or two on the field zenith out Saskia and kill them. Alternatively, you could try fitting one into a Sneak n Fit list (Since that runs a lot of fatties), but that deck already runs Emrakul and hitting your opponent for 30 is kinda the definition of win more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
There might be a nice brew of Sneak n Fit crossed with Junk Fit, idk. At this point, I think Atraxa is the stronger of the two cards with her keyword salad of abilities (Proliferate is gravy really), she doesn't really need a build around effect. Saskia is still very strong, but requires the right shell I think and the right moment to bring her out (Higher ceiling vs higher floor is kinda my point, I got a bit sidetracked).
1- I mean, the other reason to run white is Vindicate, ... but almost any issue you have that Vindicate could solve Path/Swords could, so my point is rather moot.Quote:
Originally Posted by gth842s
2- I think 2 is the right number, especially with a 22 land deck. It's convenient ramp, a fine topdeck and gives you some more ground against graveyard decks game 1. 3 is definitely too many though.
3- Preach, but Navsi isn't wrong either. Getting stuck into a mindset of 'This is the core, I can't ever change it' is bad for deck building.
4- Grave Titan and Prime Time are very good, but Prime Time is actually one of the weaker titans for what Nic Fit wants. Which is annoying, because it's the only one you can zenith for. Prime Time doesn't help you when you're behind and doesn't generate much value beyond ramping you or recurring itself with Tower + Stronghold. Grave Titan immediately stabilises, Inferno Titan is anywhere between a straight 2-for-1 to a 4-for-1 (I snuck one in today that ate two delvers and a V Clique just off his bolt abilities), and Sun Titan recurs either a Deed or something else with value written all over it, which can help when you're behind.
2 DRS seems OK - that's kind of in the wheelhouse of personal preference and is also going to vary based on 3 or 4 colors, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfulcake
We should absolutely question everything, but I just don't personally think that <4 Veteran Explorers is where we want to be. I think most of the results we've seen in tournaments would support that opinion. A deck that runs less than 4 explorers is making therapy worse and can't support the 4+ drops in the curve nearly as reliably. If the goal is lowering the curve to the point that everything is CMC 3 or less, then Maverick is a hell of a deck and it plays that game better than Nic Fit does.
I don't disagree that Sun Titan is a good card, but most of us are running eternal witness and Nissa for recursion lower on the curve. The fact that we can GSZ for Primeval Titan is a feature of the card and has to be included in our assessment of its value. This is just my opinion and I think is probably the most up for discussion or personal preference, but the Titans in order of power are: Grave, Inferno, Primeval, Sun, Frost. I don't know what matchup I'm running Sun Titan for, if that makes sense, and I have to stumble into him via top or a natural draw. For shardless I'll bring in Meren and I'll want to get the Tower + Stronghold engine going. For Miracles I'd personally prefer to GSZ where X=7, they can't counterbalance it, and then go get the tower + stronghold engine. And Grave Titan will just end the game, if you leave him in. Just my $.02, though!
I've been thinking about how to include it in my typical builds. As you play smaller creatures it gets better, with the exception of trample damage. Trample could mean that my earlier example of just running 3/1 Rhino/Saskia is the optimal way to play the card.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfulcake
I don't think it's very good in a Sneak build, but in the sorts of things I've been running for months now, it seems ok. I definitely like the cards raw power level, but as always, I remain skeptical of 4 colors, I think 4 colors tends to spread a deck too thin. Brainstorming for the past couple hours has brought me to this:
Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Ash Barrens
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Saskia the Unyielding
Non Creatures 21
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Nissa, Vital Force
The mana strikes me as being pretty bad though, I'm trying to jam too much into it between Arbor, Caverns, Stronghold, and Groves. I'm not too happy with the way the deck looks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I've been searching but I can't find anything relevant. Does anyone know of any? I would love to see others pilot the deck and gain some perspective.
The deck just doesn't have a big following. No major tournament will feature a match with the deck, so you're mostly reliant on random streamers and for the most part they don't like it much. That makes it tough to find big events with the deck. It has a reputation as a casual rather than competitive archetype.Quote:
Originally Posted by removedfromgame
There are 2-4 Nic Fit players in my local meta. Weeklies get between 20 and 50 players, and the local shop runs monthly legacy preservation series (1k) tournaments. If you look up CardKingdom on twitch, there's a decent amount of coverage of Nic Fit but it definitely needs to be sifted through to find the games (they upload entire tournaments as one video file to twitch). If you look at the last preservation series, I believe BUG Fit beat Storm on camera.Quote:
Originally Posted by removedfromgame
@Ricardo, yup :/
@Rubble, XD
From this week's (11/21) Legacy stream we got to see junk nic-fit, which I believe was a rhino fit list.
Twitch clip from this week with the beginning of the game.
https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/102600166?t=55m06s
Also, if anyone is interested, I may buy into the deck on MTGO and try to stream it in late December.
Seeing lots of planeswalker builds lately... but why no love for Garruk, Primal Hunter? This guy crushes Miracles, no?
He is good at crushing miracles, however I have been really like the versatility of Nissa, Vital Force lately. Having the ability to animate a land or get back a permanent seems pretty relevant plus being able to emblem after 2 turns and still have it around seems very strong.
From playing miracles, almost any planeswalker that is is going to incrementally make tokens that isn't going to be cleanly answered by a terminus or single removal spell is something that is scary to see across the table.
@Blastoderm is there any reason that you like Garruk, Primal Hunter over Garruk Relentless or Nissa, Vital Force against miracles?
Garruk Primal Hunter seems okay. I love Chandra Flamecaller (Jund list). Their Elementals doing so much damage and after combat they are sacrified in the phyrexian tower. Also she is mass removal and draws cards. Discarding multiple senseis divining top and draw new cards+1 is so many times great and I have often the feeling that I need more and more draw. Right know I play 2 Painful truths. Maybe I should go up to 3.
Why care that your opponent might draw cards when you just stripped them of their win conditions..? What're they going to do, Brainstorm and Dark Ritual you to death? Crack a LED in your face? Besides, since you're targeting 4-offs (at best) it's more likely they not have it hand than that they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
So your worst case scenario here is that you end up with all the mana you need..? Yes, that is horrible. Sheesh, even in the lategame it's still a shuffle effect for your Top or a Fog vs. an opposing creature. It's never completely useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
That, my good sir, is beyond epic!Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Yet people are hard set on running Abrupt Decays. I agree with you fully, but this does make me lol a bit. Another reason to run white is the SB options, by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfulcake
People like their PW's, it hasn't seen much success for awhile, but it is fun and we got some good ones recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
@echelon: no, but against ant, naming tendrils doesn't win you the game. They can still empty goblins directly into your anus till you die of goblins in ass itis.
@brael: in the miracles and delver saturated sespool that is mtgo meta, planeswalkers seem strong. Atraxa has been an absolute house. GsZ baneslayer with vigilance and death touch.
Yes, but our ass still has a way of getting out of that. A little bit of that good old Golgari Charm or a somewhat Pernicious Deed makes your ass goblin free in no time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Seriously though, Lost Legacy still doesn't get you home free, sure, but at least you don't die on the spot. And in the meantime you still have your discard/hatebears/Surgicals to mess with their plan.
I just took a peek at my SB - turns out I board in 13(!) cards vs. ANT/TES.
On a sidenote - I'm seriously considering running an Atraxa in my Junk list, without any U lands. I mean, GSZ'able flying Batterskull, dammit.