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Actually I have never played with 4 high cc cards maybe its not as bad as I suspect, will try it (with 2 mox). Thanks man.Quote:
@ Tombstalker:
All this discussion about maindeck Etw made me think about an old list I played 2 years ago: 3C TES.
I looked the list up I played back then and realized it played 4 'high' casting cost spells and still had the best Ad Nauseams.
Two questions. What's up with Confidant? I thought the general consensus is that he is bad. Also, don't you have issues with Thalia g1? The only way I can see of getting rid of her once she hits the board is Snapcaster blocking.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
That might not work so well...Quote:
Originally Posted by OurSerratedDust
Hahah, damn. Good call.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
So after more playing and testing im convinced EtW is definitely the wincon I want main. Tendrils sucks when drawn naturaly 99% of the time, while the only time EtW really isnt good is against miracle control and sometimes therapies fix that (g1 I wont keep EtW in after that).
Still not sure how much worse ad nauseam becomes without tendrils in the main since I havent really found a way to quantify that. Does anyone here have a way to show how good ad nauseam is with tendrils main as opposed to tendrils only in the side? Id be very interested in how much it affects the win percentage.
Ad Nauseam is still a tank. Since you run burning wish you can still nab tendrils from your board. Is your lists the same still?
My list is the same as yours from 2 pages back -1 mox -1 tendrils, +1 PiF +1 probe. Board looks like this:
4 dread of night
2 echoing truth
2 gilded drake
1 extirpate
2 surgical extraction
1 infest
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 shattering spree
I think full wishboards are usually overkill so I prefer straight up sideboard options with a few essential wish targets; 1 sweeper (g1 hatebears and tribal), both wincons, artifact removal. Im pretty much completely satisfied with this setup although a couple cards for RUG delver would be nice but not necessary for now. Ive recently seen some delver decks packing 2-3 bonfire of the damned instead of forked bolts which I thought was pretty techy.
Not sold on Bobs in the sideboard as long as RUG Delver is a deck. They don't side out Bolts.
Dark Confidant has always been about edging out other combo decks and midrange decks, not tempo or control. Tempo decks traditionally have ways of dealing with them that they wouldn't normally side out (Lightning Bolt, Maelstrom Pulse, Pernicious Deed) while control has too many removal spells to actually side out.
About G1 vs Thalia:
(a) this card doesn't actually say "storm player loses the game". It's close, but with some luck to draw some rituals (particularly LEDs, which you can pre-buy), you can still win with on-board Thalia.
(b) You can Probe->Therapy her on the draw, and you've actually at a very high percentage to kill on turn 2 if you don't worry about Force of Will.
(c) Outside of DDFT (which maindecks some number of Karakas AND Chain of Vapor AND Burning Wish->Massacre), legacy storm decks have the following plans:
1) miser's Chain of Vapor
2) Burning Wish->something (and I'll be up front when I say that something is 100% irrelevant to turn 2 Thalia if not Massacre, Chain Lightning*, or Deathmark)
3) Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy
4) Race
* Requires basic Mountain.
(1) isn't super common anymore.
(2) is really unlikely to succeed. Most storm decks are super short on actual lands, which means Wish->anything that costs more than 1 is a pipe dream) vs Maverick. Red stuff is a pipe dream without basic Mountain and anything black outside of Deathmark and Massacre (which each have their own faults, but are fine for solving Thalia) costs way too much mana.
(3) This is reasonable. Most people play Thoughtseize or Therapy, but not both due to Probe + Seize causing a lot of lifeloss to the point that Ad Naus is often sketchy.
(4) This is what basically everyone who doesn't get lucky on Thoughtseize or Therapy does. Decks like Belcher, SI, and TES are slightly better at it because they are a bit faster.
I'm firmly in the (3) and (4) camps with Thalia in G1. G2, I side in 3 Karakas, some Chain of Vapors, and have 18 lands (including 4 basics) with which to cast my 3 Virtue's Ruin as well.
I'd add in that if you play with Silences/Chants, you should definitely be maindecking at least 1 Karakas. Nobody does this outside of Doomsday, and even without top to spin, it's amazing being able to deal with the two most common hate bears, fatties, and still tap for Silence/colorless.
Discarding then racing is the best plan for us g1 against Mav and ill add that EtW is a great early option too. Wishing into a sweeper isn't optimal but it can get you there sometimes with a preemptive wish, pre buying petals etc. Its not always pretty but options are sometimes limited g1 and a multi purpose sweeper is a good general use wish target to have against tribal as well.
I am trying to build a board for my local meta. We have lots of Stoneblade, Elves, Maverick, D and T, B/W Stoneblade, and Sneak/Show. No GY based decks. I run a fairly standard UBr list 15 land, 4 Duress/3 Therapy, etc. Here is what I am trying currently:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Echoing Truth
2 Deathmark
1 Pyroclasm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Meltdown
I make the most changes for Maverick, swapping in 8 cards (Probe/Duress out for Inquisition, Truth, and Deathmark). I would like to board in something extra for Stoneblade and other blue decks, because I typically just cut a Ponder and a Probe to bring in 2 Inquisitions. I feel like my SB could be better configured but I don't know where to begin.
With no grave decks you should have plenty of room for options. First I would cut the non essential cards like IGG, 2 (or more) IoK, 1 deathmark and meltdown. Consider the 4th therapy main over the 4th duress since it seems better for your environment. The others can be replaced with better hate for maverick/D&T/SnS and even emrakul elves in the form of 2-3 karakas. If you dont have these like many of us then a more narrow budget answer is 4 dread of night against hatebears/moms/souls tokens and they keep your clasms and deathmark relevent. Ive been pleased with this alternative. Ya a single DoN dies to QPM and such but a mini sweeper for B that they then have to trade a card for and spend GW or GSZ into plus activation is worth the trade IMO. 2 DoN is usually game. Anyway..Quote:
apistat_commander
I am trying to build a board for my local meta. We have lots of Stoneblade, Elves, Maverick, D and T, B/W Stoneblade, and Sneak/Show. No GY based decks. I run a fairly standard UBr list 15 land, 4 Duress/3 Therapy, etc. Here is what I am trying currently:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Echoing Truth
2 Deathmark
1 Pyroclasm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Meltdown
I make the most changes for Maverick, swapping in 8 cards (Probe/Duress out for Inquisition, Truth, and Deathmark). I would like to board in something extra for Stoneblade and other blue decks, because I typically just cut a Ponder and a Probe to bring in 2 Inquisitions. I feel like my SB could be better configured but I don't know where to begin.
Im assuming by stoneblade you mean no countertop right? If so and you dont see much CotV then consider making echoing truth into chain of vapor, although e.truth is slightly better against elves/souls so theres that to consider. For blue decks the second PiF is great and against non terminus/top decks EtW + probe-therapy is usually game. Pithing needle/revokers seem great against your meta btw, hitting most of those decks above pretty hard. Defense grid might be worthwhile against blue too although in testing I wasnt always impressed with it, mostly I just didnt find it necessary vs countermagic but ymmv. Maybe try something like this:
3 karakas
2 Echoing Truth/cov
2 Pyroclasm
2 pithing needle
1 phyrexian revoker
1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
Theres alot of functional overlap in your board against those specific decks so you should see some changes in your matchups, I believe.
Why aren't you boarding dread of night for the maverick matchup? That card destroys them with ease typically as they can't go mom into thalia and have it be GG's due to bounce not working when they do that. Or at least include karakas instead, as karakas goes through the mom + hatebear lock typically unless that hatebear is canonist but canonist isn't seen in big numbers nowadays as maverick relies almost completely on thalia and teeg along with GSZ for teeg.
I wouldn't run both IGG and PiF in the board. Choose one or the other. Personally I run IGG in that slot as it's nice to have although PiF is sometimes better it's really just personal preference unless your entire metagame is a bunch of blue at which point I would be running PiF as IGG is pretty bad against them.
@IGG/PiF
I like running PiF main and IGG side in UBr ANT. Wishing for IGG happens with hands like LED,LED,IT,BW (R1 mana investment and ends up with 9 spells from just these cards so you need another spell or them at 18, you also don't need tendrils main to do this.) which would otherwise require you to roll the die with Ad Nauseam.
Playing one main and one side also allows you to switch engines postboard (f.e. boarding in IGG over PiF against aggro) which I like.
It can be awkward when you're playing against a blue deck with disruption in the yard and you need to go off through wish but goblin tokens are usually fine against those decks anyways.
@Karakas
I like the card MD in combo decks which can actually use the mana. But I'm a bit hesitant to play them in UBr.
- Karakas works in TES because you want to cast white spells. I am hesitant to include a colorless land that would make me weaker to Wasteland just to bounce hatebears.
- There are randomly decks running CotV in my meta hence Echoing Truth over Chain of Vapor. I could probably split that.
- What exactly am I using Revoker/Needle for? It doesn't seem to stop any relevant hate.
- I wasn't a huge fan of Dread of Night (it is a house against Maverick) because it isn't that great against other decks.
So say I cut some of the chaff, and I am left with this:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Echoing Truth
1 Deathmark
1 Pyroclasm
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
So I have 5 slots to play with. I can just jam 4 Dread of Night in there but I still have another slot. Maybe Pyroblast? I like the card a lot but I found that anytime I wanted to board it in, I also wanted to bring in Inquisition. They both hit the same cards, but Inquisition has better synergy with Therapy. I would like something to improve my blue MU, especially in situations where they are attacking my yard with SCM + Extraction, making winning via PiF harder.
Wouldn't you board out your chant effects against hatebears?Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
On the other hand, Karakas is good against Reanimator and Sneak Attack, and you might certainly keep your chant effects against those decks.
Karakas also works in any deck because its a "free" reusable uncounterable bounce spell. If I owned more and my wife didnt miser mine then I would be using em too. 3 of these is great against maverick, sneak and show plus Im assuming the D&T you face runs hatebears and elves likely runs emrakul. Board them in place of cards like duress. That being said Ive been very happy with dread of night in lieu of.Quote:
- Karakas works in TES because you want to cast white spells. I am hesitant to include a colorless land that would make me weaker to Wasteland just to bounce hatebears.
Fair enough, same reason I run truths over CoV.Quote:
- There are randomly decks running CotV in my meta hence Echoing Truth over Chain of Vapor. I could probably split that.
Off the top of my head and from the decks you listed they disrupt senseis top, jtms, aether vial, wasteland, SFM, jitte, all of maverick, sneak attack and griselbargain. Not saying needles would be stellar since I havent tried them recently but in theory they seem pretty good since most of these cards tend to give us problems. Just a thought but maybe im mistaken. I havent really found anything that great against blue but against these decks I usually go for the EtW plan which excels except vs terminus with top in play.Quote:
- What exactly am I using Revoker/Needle for? It doesn't seem to stop any relevant hate.
This is why I suggested karakas but theres nothing wrong with DoN since hatebears are one of if not the biggest headache for us.Quote:
- I wasn't a huge fan of Dread of Night (it is a house against Maverick) because it isn't that great against other decks.
The miracled match (if thats what you face) is hard.Quote:
I would like something to improve my blue MU, especially in situations where they are attacking my yard with SCM + Extraction, making winning via PiF harder.
If they arent playing terminus then EtW main wins when cast t1-2 and
SFM-> batterskull wont save them because therapy cancels it. If they are playing terminus then they are also likely playing countertop, in which case your plan to board extra discard is ok but eventually they will still grind us out and I hate when hard counters come online for them. This is why I try to take their top/BS then drop tokens and race. That usually gets me there but I wont try it with a top in play. Otherwise ill aim for a quick ad nauseam (one of the times im very happy to still be playing this card).
Anyway if you find some good tech for miracles and RUG id be interested.
Saw the list that Dia_Bot posted and like the looks of it. Did some small changes and posted a side board. Let me know what you think.
Main:
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
3 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
Side:
4 Dread of night
2 Echoing truth
2 Gilded drake
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Infest
1 Tendrils of agony
1 Empty the warrens
1 Shattering Spree
lambert101- that is my exact list except different grave hate and CRs over RoF. I just cant get over RoF being sorcery speed vs. instant CRs having threshold after t1 usually. I guess its a personal thing. That being said I really like your version.
I wouldn't cut the maindeck tendrils for EtW in this particular deck. That can bottleneck you unnecessarily when you're going to attempt to combo and find yourself 2 mana short of IT -> wish -> tendrils for the instant win. I know that if I had swapped in EtW for the maindeck ToA at KC I would have had some sticky situations come up where I don't instantly win with tendrils and am then foiled by batterskull or some other anti EtW tech like terminus. Also don't want to let my opponent get another draw, as that could cause my demise.
If you're naming jace with needle/revoker you're doing something wrong. My instant name if needle/revoker resolved would be sensei's divining top, as that's the only place where I would bring in needle/revoker. Still don't see the point of that boarding plan. You can simply bring in pyroblast instead as countering CB itself on their turn 2 will probably win you the game. Pyroblast can also sometimes answer a resolved counterbalance since instant speed cards are infinitely better against counterbalance than sorcery speed ones like needle. And I'd rather be rid of counterbalance completely than lose because my opponent blind flips a 2 drop when I attempt to combo with IT/BW.
On karakas over DoN in the board. I can support that change assuming you have an answer for canonist in the wishboard like pulverize or something as karakas doesn't answer canonist unfortunately. However it's priceless when you play karakas from hand, bounce their hatebear, then proceed to go off. The card is also quite good against reanimator although against griselbrand it isn't the best as the opponent drawing 7 cards usually means game over unless they hit some pretty bad cards. The only advantage we get from the opponent drawing 7 or 14 cards is if we have the lone tendrils in hand and they let us resolve dark rit/cabal rit and achieve lethal storm hoping to counter wish/tutor while we proceed to tendrils them from hand for presumably lethal as 2 storm + tendrils is trivial to produce with this deck typically. Although producing 3 storm as insurance might be necessary if they didn't fetch/are at 6 as FoW stops dark rit x2 into tendrils leaving the opponent at 1. Although karakas is still quite good against them as they typically have almost all legendary creatures, making it difficult for them to win the game unless they needle karakas and get a fatty to stick.