[Deck] Solidarity

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Originally Posted by Seraphus

Thanks, and sorry for the previous reply.

- BTW it's much easier to hit a land drop here, also you don't need to wait for the 4th Land...

- Thought scour is for post BS on you or for fast acceleration of the 20 cards goal.

- Once you reach that there is virtually no card in the deck that will be useless to draw.

- Snapcaster won't be affected by Shaman that often

- remember that 1 spell + Trap + BF » every VoB is an Ancestral Visions from turn 2 onward (even when you use Snapcaster on it)

- Killing is much easier if you already used the Trap

- TiTi is very good: I am a fan from now on specially if you put 2 or 3 vs S&T

- The most probable change you will make to this list is to put 3 Surgical Extraction

- It's really ok to give a turn with Meditate now - you can still use a few cards

- the most problematic deck is Eldrazis: even with TiTi is like 30-70 for them.

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Do you play in MOL? Could it stream to us at Twitch?

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Originally Posted by lexluthor

Do you play in MOL? Could it stream to us at Twitch?

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I want, but first I need to calculate the deck price... I just returned from a MTG break

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Originally Posted by Seraphus

I want, but first I need to calculate the deck price... I just returned from a MTG break

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More or less 400-450 tix

IDK what's that in € =S

As said before:
15 Sideboard
// 4 Creature
SB: 4 Thing in the Ice

// 11 Instant
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

For those doubting of Archive Trap, I can tell it is working.

I top'ed 8 a 40ish ppl tournament a few months back with a very nice homebrew featuring Archive Trap + VoB.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14658&d=288040&f=LE

Now, with only so few mill cards, I highly doubt we need the full VoB playset.

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Originally Posted by Ralf

For those doubting of Archive Trap, I can tell it is working.

I top'ed 8 a 40ish ppl tournament a few months back with a very nice homebrew featuring Archive Trap + VoB.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14658&d=288040&f=LE

Now, with only so few mill cards, I highly doubt we need the full VoB playset.

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If I could, in this list, I would use 8...

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Originally Posted by Seraphus

If I could, in this list, I would use 8...

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Ancestral recalling every turn !!!

I am using the 4th VoB after SB but I also use 4 Glimpse the Unthinkable.
Still, there were many games where I couldn't reach the 20 cards threshold rule in a given timeframe.

Anyway, I like what you are trying to incorporate here. It might take a few adjustments/tunings to find the perfect balance :cool:

Well, I cannot make videos on mtgo cause I don't have an account but I made some with cockatrice replay-thingy:

Drive

Instructions on how to watch the matches:

Reddit

I will keep uploading it.

I tested the list (with archive trap) in 37 games in the cockatrice, results 21 W - 16 L. Some considerations:

1) I do not think Thought Scour is really useful. Mill 2 é practically irrelevant for reach 20 cards in grave, and pos - BS I have 7 fetchs. I'll take the TS and put 4 Impulse.

2) Archive trap is good. I won some games because of her and lost some because of her too. I will continue to test them, but I feel like testing more BF in MD, maybe -2 AT +2 BF, I do not know for sure. ( I have reached +20 cards more often in the Grave due to BF than to AT)

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Originally Posted by lexluthor

I tested the list (with archive trap) in 37 games in the cockatrice, results 21 W - 16 L. Some considerations:

1) I do not think Thought Scour is really useful. Mill 2 is practically irrelevant for reach 20 cards in grave, and pos - BS I have 7 fetchs. I'll take the TS and put 4 Impulse.

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I came to the same conclusion with my homebrew (a few month back) and dished the TS:
-> Investing 1 blue mana to mill 2 cards and draw 1 is usually not enough. You usually end up losing a lot of "Tempo".

Here is some food for thoughts:
a) Tempo decks will rely on 3 dmg/turn for 1 invested mana which can be translated into 15% "job done" (3/20)
b) The best mill card for 1 mana is only a 9.62 % "job done" (5/52). The second best card is a 2 CMC sorcery that meets the same percentage but forces you to splash black. If you don't want to splash for black and stay mono colored, the percentage drops to a mere 7.69% "job done (8/52 divided by 2)
c) Archive Trap will counterbalance the point b) with a 25 % "job done" (13/52) but introduces a specific condition to its success (oppo HAS to search his library)
d) Theta effect is 1/52 or a 1.92 % "job done" (theta = the more turns you get to play, the closer you get the job done as your opponent is drawing a card/turn)
e) Hedron crab is the most, over the course, scary mill card by all means. 6 cards/fetch is a 11.54% "job done".

I didn't come close to an algorythm that could match Tempo decks but my homebrew was built in a "meet the threshold" way of thinking:
- 10 cards meets the flyer (Jace)
- 20 cards meets VoB

If you want to apply some of this food for thoughts to Solidarity, be my guest.

Here are a few conclusions of my own:
- Don't play 4 VoB MB if you cannot sustain the 20 cards threshold rule reliablely. This is why for example the 4th VoB was in the brew' side with 4 Glimpse.
- Transformational SB is working (which is why I started playing with Titi in Solidarity). Going for the Turbo Mill tech pushed my brew even further whereas going deeper on the creature tech (adding Delver + Clique post side) proved to be bad.

As Solidarity is at stake, I guess with Archive Trap, going further on the creature tech might be the best option. One might try Jace alongside with Clique + Titi.


Anyway, please keep testing. 21 W vs 16 L is not bad at all for a start (just to not say "good") and keep us posted !!!

Ps: here is a presentation of what I was trying to achieve with my brew. Unfortunately it is written in French but you can use google translate to have a taste of it. I was/am too busy to write it up in English (which I may do at some point but not for now)

http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=14508

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Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao

I was scouring for cards for a different deck when I came across this card that was released last year:

http://mtg.wtf/cards_hq/c16/27.png

Ancient Excavation
UB 2
instant
Draw cards equal to the number of cards in your hand, then discard a card for each card drawn this way.
Basic landcycling 2

Black isn't a typical splash for us, but that's two effects we would find useful, no? Tutor for an island for 2, OR Super Brainstorm for 4? If we cast this EoOT 4, wont we combo out like 99.9% of the time on turn 5?

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Has anyone tested this? Running 1-2 of these and dropping an Island could work. You can landcycle it early on and have it as an additional target for Snapcaster. It probably averages 3 or 4 cards drawn, and gets super powerful immediately following Meditate. I've been goldfishing a black splash for LDV in effort to maximize turn 3 win %, though I'm doubting that either of these cards are good enough warrant increasing vulnerability to Wasteland/Stifle.

Splashing for card disadvantage?

https://i.imgur.com/wFHegX9.jpg

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Originally Posted by JDK

Splashing for card disadvantage?

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On the one hand card disadvantage, on the other it practically guarantees that you are able to go off the turn after you play it.

Edit: And if you were lumping Ancient Excavation in there, it's hardly card disadvantage. It's either card-neutral Island cycling (plus a big draw spell in your graveyard) or powerful filtering if you have 4-5 other cards in hand (which is effectively card advantage, because any land you hit midcombo is dead).

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Originally Posted by iOWN

On the one hand card disadvantage, on the other it practically guarantees that you are able to go off the turn after you play it.

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You are correct.
But, Solidarity doesn't necessarily run after speed as you adapt your combo turn to your opponent and our fizzle rate is relatively low.

From my experience, aside from tempo decks and some combos decks, Solidarity should win a vast majority of its G1.
Against those aforementioned decks, Ancient Excavation is "bad" as the CMC is definitely prohibitive against Tempo and the card is too slow against Combo in a vacuum.

Nevertheless, the idea to increase spell density and reduce even further our fizzle rate must be pursued. Here is a few comments:
- You need 2 islands to dig properly and ensure your next land drops (as with 2 lands you have access to all your cantrips). It is more " not finding" the 2nd island, in a timely fashion, that leads to defeat.
- Suggesting to cut an island would even push further down our probability to have a 2 lands opener and by consequence our ability to use effectively our cantrips (Impulse).
- Splashing black requires more fetchs, introduces unstability, and opens us to wasteland blow out.
- I disagree with you as I would see the card more as an anti-fizzle card rather than a combo enabler. You want to play it after a meditate rather than before for example.

All in all, the risks are far too high for a relatively discussable outcome; but this has to be demonstrated by testing.

Cheers,

Any recent tournament reports or decklists?

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Originally Posted by Ralf

You are correct.
But, Solidarity doesn't necessarily run after speed as you adapt your combo turn to your opponent and our fizzle rate is relatively low.

From my experience, aside from tempo decks and some combos decks, Solidarity should win a vast majority of its G1.
Against those aforementioned decks, Ancient Excavation is "bad" as the CMC is definitely prohibitive against Tempo and the card is too slow against Combo in a vacuum.

Nevertheless, the idea to increase spell density and reduce even further our fizzle rate must be pursued. Here is a few comments:
- You need 2 islands to dig properly and ensure your next land drops (as with 2 lands you have access to all your cantrips). It is more " not finding" the 2nd island, in a timely fashion, that leads to defeat.
- Suggesting to cut an island would even push further down our probability to have a 2 lands opener and by consequence our ability to use effectively our cantrips (Impulse).
- Splashing black requires more fetchs, introduces unstability, and opens us to wasteland blow out.
- I disagree with you as I would see the card more as an anti-fizzle card rather than a combo enabler. You want to play it after a meditate rather than before for example.

All in all, the risks are far too high for a relatively discussable outcome; but this has to be demonstrated by testing.

Cheers,

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I actually agree with you that it is more of an anti-fizzle card than an enabler. I have been thinking of it as potential MD Meditate 4-5, though it becomes significantly better following another Meditate. I think 17 lands + 4 Brainstorm is enough to consistently hit 2 lands by turn 2. That plus 4 Impulse + 4 Lim-Dul's Vault + 1-2 Ancient Excavation seems to consistently hit 3 lands by turn 3.

Splashing black requires more Fetches and at least one dual, which, like you said, opens us up to Wasteland as well as Stifle. This is a huge disadvantage and given that I've been testing the changes solo, I don't have a sense yet for how big the drawback is in practice.

As for LDV, while Solidarity doesn't always need to go off as soon as possible, I think the option to win on turn 3 could make the deck a lot more competitive, especially against other combo decks. Having just gotten back into the game after a 10 year hiatus, I don't have a great concept of how the current tempo & control decks are played. So, I am fully receptive to the idea that I could be way off base here and these efforts are just weakening our already worst match-ups. But at a gut level, Solidarity with a consistent turn 3 win sounds really good to me.

My wall of text was wiped...

Here is my latest list:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

3 Snapcaster Mage

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
2 Flusterstorm
2 Snap
2 Remand
2 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
4 Opt
4 Reset

SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Counterspell
SB: 2 Vedalken Shackles
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 Thing in the Ice

That leaves us 2 flex spots and I'm still debating/pondering about it.
Option 1: more creatures
Option 2: more spells

As far as my testing sample is concerned, 9 threats postboard are usually enough to carry on.

The real challenge is G3 if there is any because you need to be very good at bluffing.

Anyway I would recommend going for another ratchet bomb and the last spot could be a TNN/Clique/Shackle.

You can also test 2 back to basics and enter even more in MUC's territory.

More to come tomorrow as it is tedious to type from a phone...

I've not played Solidarity in ages. In fact, I ended up breaking up my deck and selling the pieces. But a consistent turn 3 win is a bare minimum for Solidarity to be competitive these days.

The meta has changed in the decade or so since the deck was invented. There are aggro decks that can win on turn 2, which is the same turn the all main-decked hatebears land. Being a turn 4 combo deck is no longer a thing.

That's why I used to play the green splash, as Hunting Pack enabled a lot of turn 3 wins. It wasn't enough, though, and at this point I'm not sure that even the unbanning of Frantic Search would be enough. Having to find High Tide on turns 1 or 2 (in order to combo on turn 3) is a tall order without Merchant Scroll.

As much as I loev Solidarity Silent requiem is right in all aspects. I'd even consider running merhant scrolls just to assure I have more chances of finding high tide. also since most decks run 18 lands you Will ahve to spend that time also digging for lands since missing a land drop is hitting us quite hard, we're basically lost a turn or more since we need to dig more (aka not comboing) to find it.

Tbh, at this point I'd rather play a Spring Tide version fo this deck, sorcery speed, cloud of faeries, m. scroll type of deck which can really consistently go off 3rd turn.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

I've not played Solidarity in ages. In fact, I ended up breaking up my deck and selling the pieces. But a consistent turn 3 win is a bare minimum for Solidarity to be competitive these days.

The meta has changed in the decade or so since the deck was invented. There are aggro decks that can win on turn 2, which is the same turn the all main-decked hatebears land. Being a turn 4 combo deck is no longer a thing.

That's why I used to play the green splash, as Hunting Pack enabled a lot of turn 3 wins. It wasn't enough, though, and at this point I'm not sure that even the unbanning of Frantic Search would be enough. Having to find High Tide on turns 1 or 2 (in order to combo on turn 3) is a tall order without Merchant Scroll.

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Out of curiosity (since I still have a lot of studying to do), which aggro decks are you referring to? Elves or others as well?

Your last point is the reason I am considering Lim-Dul's vault. It's essentially a Vampiric Tutor that can stack multiple key pieces on the top of your deck. While unlike Merchant Scroll, it is card disadvantage, it can be way more explosive--for example, you can find a stack with Brainstorm, High Tide, and Reset (or Snap, Snapcaster Mage, a third land, whatever other piece you are lacking). Turn 3 you draw Brainstorm, grab the next 3 cards, and go off. Also unlike Merchant Scroll, it's not dead midcombo. While it's not my favorite draw, LDV + Meditate/any cantrip basically ensures that you will finish going off.

The CMC 2 is a bit of a drawback--I do wish Mystical Tutor was unbanned (hey Wizards, Frantic Search would be nice too!) It's also only a maximum of 8 High Tides, which is only a ~70% probability of having it by turn 3 on the play. My rough calculation says it goes up to 90% if you're willing to mulligan once (not accounting for needing the right combination of lands and other spells). Would be nice if there were some other way to increase the redundancy here.

I've also been goldfishing Spring Tide, which seems like it's sped up a bit as well. With Cloud of Faeries, Snapcaster, Snap, plus 1-2 Ghostly Flickers, turn 2 combos are more common than I expected. But again, only so much you can do for consistency with only 4 copies of your combo initiator.


For reference, here are two lists I've been testing (Solidarity and Spring Tide respectively, sorry if the latter is considered off-topic).


// Solidarity

// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage

// 39 Instant
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Snap
4 Lim-Dûl's Vault
3 Cunning Wish
2 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
1 Ancient Excavation
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm

// 17 Land
7 Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

(SB includes 4th Snap and Meditate as Wish targets.)


// Spring Tide

// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Creature
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Snapcaster Mage

// 23 Instant
4 High Tide
4 Snap
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
2 Meditate
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm

// 15 Land
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
6 Island

// 14 Sorcery
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Ideas Unbound
3 Gitaxian Probe

Both skimp on lands, because I've mainly been optimizing for the goldfish--as an experiment to see how fast they can get--and not for the meta. With the latter, I just want to see how frequently I can hit 2 lands and go off turn 2.