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I think you should change disenchants into oblivion rings and add some red blasts in the thorn of amethyst slot. O-rings are very good vs Omni Tell and blast is better than thorn considering you already have thalia main board.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefreakaccident
So..spontaneously I was participatied in a little tournament today.
Just 12 People but we still played 5 rounds of legacy.
I did not make any notes so just writing a short report for anyone interested.
List below.
M1 High Tide
G1 - Win on t4 while he was short on lands, Piledriver got me here.
G2 - Win on t4, again thanks to Piledriver !
1-0
M2 UW(r) Miracle
G1 - I led with an Aether Vial which slowly gets me there.
G2 - He starts which Top with gets neutralised with my Needle.
Anyway he casts 2 Terminus, later makes 2 Angels which both get Stingscourgered away, I win slowy.
2-0
With slowly I'm speaking of attacking for 4 dmg a turn with a combination of two 2/2's
or Piledriver + 1/1 etc.
M3 ANT
G1 - He starts with a Therapy on Lackey and hits =(, so I do have a slow start but he durdles around and I get him since hes 1 mana short before I kill him.
G2 - Piledriver gets me there again.
M4 Goblins (with green splash)
G1 - He starts with 2 Vials, I only get one latter and while I'm getting a little stuck on mana he kills me.
G2 - This time he doesnt do a whole lot. His hand was 2 Pyrokinesis, 2 Vials, 3 Lands and was drawing lands. He let me hit him with my t1 Lackey, bringing in a Ringleader and I win some turns later while he was drawing lands.
G3 - This time we both do have good starts, but I win the turn I Vial in a Sharpshooter (with haste) to clean his board. He was blocking some Tokens with 2/2's so everyone died :).
So.. I was leading with 12 points, 3 other each had 9.. Thankfully my oppentent accepted the split (1th and 3rd price).
M5 Goblins (with blue splash)
He is the better player and he does have 4 Pyrokinesis in his board..
G1 - He leds with a Vial, I play Lackey. He does aswell and my Mogg Fanatic kills his while Lackey does dmg ..to bring in.. a Piledriver =(. Anyway the game goes along, getting stalled. One turn hes at 3, I have around 6 Goblins, including Prospector, out and some lands. I play Matron, getting SGC, play it sacrifing my goblins and can shoot him down with sacrifing the SGC.
Next turn he would have land Chieftain & Krenko, which would've been enough to kill me.
G2 - My 7 were: 2 Warchief, 2 Vial, 1 Gempalm, 1 Matron, 1 Cavern.. can I keep this vs Waste & Port? ..Well I did, never getting a red source to cycle (but drawing other Gempalms). I can keep myself alive for several turns but he.. this game I couldn't have won..
G3 - Again we both start with Vial. Again I'm short of mana. I had 1 Prospecter, 1 Fanatic, 1 Mountain out, he Lackey & Krenko. Luckily I could cycle Gempalm to kill Krenko & Sacc Fanatic to kill his Lackey. We play draw & go for a while, me getting some Lands, while he is short on Mana (Waste, Port). He draws a Siege-Gang, I draw a Ringleader, which gets me Lackey, Lackey, Matron & Gempalm. I Kill his Siege-Gang commander and a few turns later (with me beeing on 6 life) I'm getting Krenko out and win from there in two turns.
5-0 but we allready splitted..anyway felt good ;P.
The list:
4 - Vial, Ringleader, Lackey, Matron
3 - Warchief, Chieftain, Stingscourger, Gempalm
2 - Krenko, Piledriver, War Marshall, Fanatic
1 - Scrapper, SGC, Prospector
4 Waste, 4 Cavern, 13 Mountain
Sideboard
3 of each: Pyroblast, Chalice, Relic, Pithing Needle
2 Pyrokinesis, 1 Sharpshooter
The reason for no splash? I do not own a single dual.
Congratualtions there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
Nice one on beating combo decks =]
Do you remember how you sided against UW?
Just wondering since you left 2 Stingscourger in, what you brought in and out.
Thanks.
Thanks =).
In - 3 Needle, 3 Pyroblast
Out - 3 Gempalm, 1 Scrapper, 2 Fanatic. Maybe it was -1 Fanatic, -1 Stingscourger..can't remember..
Scrapper is useless vs Top and I thought he wasn't playing Shakles (which in fact he did not). Fanatic isn't great either..well killing a Clique/Snapcaster could've been relevant but I wanted to have some Stingscourger to bounce angels..and it did work^^.
The combo matches, well what's to say.. lucky that I got Piledriver and they couldn't go off.. vs High Tide I saw 1 Pyroblast but never casted it, versus ANT I topdecked 1 Chalice, played it for x=1, but he topdecked explosives and destroyed it in a second..
So, I simply got lucky..
I'd like to comment about Ancient Tomb in our deck archetype. I've been testing it with mixed feelings, and I'd also like to hear your thoughts.
The life tax doesn't seem too awful against many matchups, except against aggro (duh).
The possibility for matroning, ringleadering, and krenkoing earlier than normal seems really interesting for me, as well as a double vial, a vial with daze backup, that sort of thing. It speeds up your clock at the cost of a expendable resource (your life points).
The problem I face, obviously, is with double Rs. I am playing with 4 warchiefs and 2 chieftains, but if I wanted to increase the number of tombs I'd have to reduce them somehow. Had I not squeezed those tombs, I'd play another cieftain.
Another problem with introducing a new land into the deck is trying to figure out what land to cut. Here's the mana base I've been testing:
4 caverns
4 wastelands
12 mountains
2 ancient tomb
Since my rishadan ports haven't decided to show up yet... I wouldn't try tombs AND rishadans in the same deck, since that is way too many colorless mana to my liking. On a splash build, I wouldn't try to reduce any of the other lands in favor of it, unless the amount of double R is sharply reduced.
I've had really interesting plays with it, but I'm not sure if it is better than Rishadan Port against combo/control. While Rishadan keeps them from winning at the cost of our mana sources, Ancient Tomb does feel sometimes like a win more. I couldn't precisely define if I was just making it easier to win or if I was actually pulling a game I had no business winning.
Finally, I thought I should just take a moment to say: Why I am proposing that kind of discussion? As I mentioned, because I still don't own my playset of ports, which leaves me with either splashes+fetches or just good old 14 mountains, and also because I'm looking for ways to accelerate our plays, taking in consideration this is a mana hungry deck. This seems to be the best place to do so, afterall we are here to discuss, right?
cheers.
Nice to read some report Holly.
I was the guy in Round 5, and our matches were pretty nice! Alot ups and downs in each game. Specaly in Game 3, involving some Pyrokinesis and a comeback of each player.
I played Ur goblins and faced:
2-0 Ub meerfolk
1-2 realy close loss to ANT
2-1 close game vs UR burn
2-0 rg goblin
0-0-3 r goblin
by the way, meta was weired as allways:
4 Goblins 2xRG, R, UR
ANT
Delver UR
Dream Halls
Enchantress
Merfolk UB
Miracle UWR
Spiral Tide
Welder Combo
Since I did this, now I have to post the results, so here it goes:
The Deck:
10 mountain
4 Cavern of souls
4 Rishadan port
4 Wasteland
4 Aether vial
4 Goblin lackey
4 Goblin piledriver
4 Mogg war marshall
4 Goblin matron
4 Goblin warchief
4 Gempalm incinerator
4 Goblin ringleader
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin chieftain
1 Goblin sharpshooter
1 TukTuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, mob boss
1 Siege-gang commander
The Setup:
Pre sideboard games only, 10 games per each individual opposing deck, 5 games on the play, 5 games on the draw. Testing out against the more popular decks near the top of the metagame.
The Results:
Vs Rug:
Goblins on the play 3 wins 2 losses / Goblins on the draw 3 wins 2 losses
Total for Goblins: 6 wins 4 losses
Notes: You can chump block the crap out of the stuff on the ground if needed if they get you low enough, eventually you'll just start to overrun them as time goes on, Gempalm incinerator'ing their Delver in the sky can only be stopped by Stifle, so it's even harder for them if their flipped delver is answered.
Vs Maverick:
Goblins on the play 4 wins 1 loss / Goblins on the draw 3 wins 2 losses
Total for Goblins: 7 wins 3 losses
Notes: Their stoneforge mystic's can be answered via Gempalm incinerator which is so easy to get to when you have Goblin Matron & Goblin Ringleader The matron also lets you get to the 1 of TukTuk scrapper which is very useful against a devastating Umezawa's Jitte Goblin Sharpshooter is also nice for alot of their creatures with toughness of 1, though Mother of Runes can be annoying, the sharpshooter, siege-gang commander, & gempalm incinerator, can get to an answer, though sometimes it requires more than 1. Other scenarios, it doesn't even matter when you have an overrun of goblins in play.
Vs Esperblade:
Goblins on the play 4 wins 1 loss / Goblins on the draw 5 wins 0 losses
Total for Goblins: 9 wins 1 loss
Notes: No offense to the Blade decks but this was basically a cakewalk, they just can't answer the eventual overrun of goblins, even when the opposing deck won, it was an uphill struggle, when goblins won, it was just ridiculous.
Vs U/W Stoneblade:
Goblins on the play 4 wins 1 loss / Goblins on the draw 3 wins 2 losses
Total for Goblins: 7 wins 3 losses
Notes: (See Esperblade above, the decks are similar, though somehow the one with discard (esperblade) had more losses against goblins than the one with more counter spells (U/W Stoneblade) Which is interesting considering Goblins Cavern of Souls
Vs U/W Miracle control:
Goblins on the play 5 wins 0 losses / Goblins on the draw -after a full on 5 for 5 sweep on the play, discontinued to save time-
Total for Goblins: Sweep 5-0
Notes: Counterbalance & Sensei's Divining top against a tribal deck running Cavern of Souls, IN ADDITION to already having Aether Vials & Goblin Lackeys that can all get into play from your turn 1, it was just a blowout.
Vs Omnitell:
Goblins on the play 1 win 4 losses / Goblins on the draw 2 wins 3 losses
Total for Goblins: 3 wins 7 losses
Notes: This is the only deck that there were more losses than wins, which is to be expected, a fast combo deck that says "I win" when it combos is a tough match up for goblins, you're both racing eachother, the difference is that their combo is usually faster than your combat phase swinging for lethal . The problem with the Goblin Matron -to a- Stingscourger plan is that when they Show and Tell an Omniscience into play, they can just replay the creature if you Stingscourger bounce it away, the other problem is this little combo that goes with it: Show and Tell, put in Omniscience, then cast Burning Wish, get Petals of Insight, cast it an infinite number of times, though usually 20+ is enough, then get to another Burning Wish since you're sculpting your deck, use that to get Grapeshot, & just win right there.
Vs Sneak & Show:
Goblins on the play 5 wins 0 losses / Goblins on the draw -after a full on 5 for 5 sweep on the play, discontinued to save time-
Total for Goblins: Sweep 5-0
Notes: Unlike Omnitell, this deck gets it's bomb into play, but can be answered via the main deck stingscourger & it will likely not come back in time to matter, When they Show and Tell you just drop a Goblin Matron, or a Goblin Ringleader hoping to get to a matron so you can get to the stingscourger to bounce their guy, hard for them to answer when you play the stingscourger via the Cavern of souls -or- Aether vial w/ 2 counters.
(These are only pre sideboard games, and it's only against a few of the many decks that is type 1.5/legacy, however I still felt it was useful enough that I could share the results, this deck is awesome against the top decks right now, at least from these numbers from those game 1's, the only exception is as to be expected, combo match up's are it's weaker match ups, though Goblin Matron to a Stingscourger is awesome against Sneak & Show, it is much less effective against Show and Tell Omniscience.)
I feel like these results must be skewed somehow... Goblins is a very powerful deck and definitely has a good Miracles MU. I'd even say that Goblins can be slightly favored against Maverick and Stoneblade, though these games can be more swingy. Against RUG and Show and Tell variants though, I'm having trouble believing the results are as close as they are. Perhaps whoever you're testing with isn't as comfortable with the test decks as you are with Goblins?Quote:
Originally Posted by feline
This is a definite possibiliy, also this game is random. If you did 10 more games you could have very different results, but it gives you a slight image of how things might go preboard, but preboard is either 33 or 50 % of the matches you'll play. So postsideboard games are way more important to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
@feline
Awesome job. Thank you. While I agree that you probably had the skill advantage each MU it's still helpful to hear which MUs were good, bad, or even, because it gives us a direction to go in with side boarding.
OmniTell is the one that's going to be a pain. There are multiple ways for us to attack it, but no MD blue for us is going to leave us a big underdog every G1. We really need t1 Lackey t2 Waste/port to have a chance. What I'm wondering about is the SB against it. Angel of Despair seems like a fair answer, as does O Ring. Ring actually seems a little stronger since it can be hardcast and sorta fills the How Do I Deal Wth Moat slot. O Ring also makes sense since splashing W for Thalia and Karakas seems legit now.
What are you all siding for OmniShow these days?
@ feline:
Thank you for your efforts!
Although one should view your methods sceptically (as was already note: you probably had an advantage in skill/knowledge of your deck AND you playtested a relatively small number of games for acceptable reasons AND you didn't consider postboard-games for acceptable reasons) I really think your insights on the MUs are very useful and provide a short instruction on how to play against the deck in question.
I'm interested in the following three things:
(1)
What can you tell us about the performance of Rishadan Port in those MUs you tested? Were they awsome/helpful/cute/redundant/awful?
(2)
About the ESPERblade MU (which is basically the only result that I find striking): You said that it was an uphill battle for your opponent on the moments when he managed to win a game. However, my view on the MU is that it is usually an uphillbattle for Goblins and that chances are ~40% to win game 1. This is due to their early Stoneforge Mystics -->Equipment turn. You didn't mention that being an issue. Could you comment on that?
(3)
Did you have any specific idea on what your opening hands are supposed to contain for each MU? Like, against Maveric I keep pretty different hands than when I play against UW Miracles: Against Maveric, a high number of removal is appreciated wheres against Miracles I want fast starts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
I didn't do post sideboard games because I always do a run through pre sideboard games first, and I have yet to do that with goblins, between the overrun that goblins can get into after a certain point, and the ability to nuke almost any creature, including gempalm incinerating a griselbrand away which is just stupid with multiple goblins in play, I even at one point was close enough to gempalm away an emrakul, but i was 2 goblins in play short, krenko was awesome there though and I can say that I'm keeping that as a one of.
1.)Yes keep in rishadan port, it's what I used to "stall out" omniscience for as long as i could in addition to wasteland, I would have won less games against that deck if I didn't have port in the deck. Between 1o mountains, 4 caverns & 4 vials, you have plenty of what you need to get the little green men into play, not to mention lackey's of course.
2.)Their stoneforge mystic's meant little when I was able to kill them before they could get their equipment on something (like the jitte) or their batterskull into play, even when they did and they started swinging for 4, it meant i had a good number of turns before i'd have to start blocking, so i just built up an army and did the overrun. The other thing that helps if I can't answer the stoneforge fast is that I have a maindeck tuktuk scrapper, I run it over the tin street hooligan because when you matron, that means you're using 3 mana, or the vial is at 3, which means next turn you'll likely be able to play the tuktuk anyway, and with the tin street hooligan, it requires paying 1 g, which is easier to do with cavern of souls in the deck now, but with a [cards]goblin warchief[cards] in play, it just becomes a "pay 1 red to cast it" because it costs 1 colorless less, basically you have to play around yourself in such a situation.
The issues they seemed to be having was just that the longer the game went, the more goblins that got into play, it just turns into an overrun effect if they don't get the jitte, I didn't find myself caring about the batterskull that much, it just meant I was on a clock that wasn't very fast, and their life gain just meant I'd have to make sure that when I swung it was for a TON of damage, so just take turns building up more goblins into play. Also between ringleader / matron it's easy to get to a tuktuk -or even- a gempalm incinerator just to prevent the jitte from collecting counters in the first place, also there's the "sac effect" from siege gang commander, block, before damage, pay 2, sac, do 2 dmg to their creature to kill it, if it's got the batterskull +4/+4, the sac before damage stops their life link and their jitte counters from collecting. The biggest thing though is I was just able to prevent jitte from collecting counters most of the time.
3.) I tried to base keeping my hands off what was good enough for the deck itself, I played each game starting out like I didn't know what I was fighting since it was just testing out those game 1's, pre sideboard games, even though I knew I was playing it against the opposing deck a bunch of times lol. It is true though, against combo I wanted hands with lackeys so I could get to lethal faster, against control a turn 1 lackey is also nice, as well as the aether vial, against other creature based decks, I was less leaning on lackey since they'd have blockers, and since both sides are playing creatures, mine are usually weaker in the power/toughness scenario, so I'd have to wait to overrun them or remove their worst creatures via, sharpshooter/siege gang commander/gempalm incinerator. Since creature vs creature based decks will take longer since you're both swinging across the combat phase, attacking and blocking, I wanted aether vials more against other creature decks, it helps to get more goblins into play over the following turns and the more goblins means, worst case scenario I'll chump block your knight of the reliquary Tarmogoyf etc, Mogg war marshall is a good example of this, as long as you can outlast them, it doesn't matter if you essentially "fog" most of their combat damage with a 1/1 goblin, if it means a few turns later you start putting Seige-gang commander / Krenko, mobb boss into play, krenko really is frickin nuts!
Another interesting interaction I found myself doing was stingscourger'ing an opposing stoneforge mystic just so I could get a goblin lackey to make contact with my opponent, I was leery about it at first because they'd get more card advantage, but it didn't matter when the stoneforge mystic never got to put the batterskull into play and the Umezawa's jitte just sat on the battlefield.
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Also check this out:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...y&fecha=2012-9
Goblins is going to be a deck to beat again and it seems it's doing even better than last month on the chart, this deck is hot right now & on the move up! I am so jazzed I got all the stuff for this deck like 6 months ago when the goblins were cheaper and basically off the radar.
feline, despite possible limitations that were already mentioned, this was really helpful. thanks!
I have a question: on the draw, RUG maverick and stoneblade seem more difficult to me than on the play, and i wonder if it is related to incinerator being a slow removal against them. would you rather have tarfire in the list or in one of those incinerator slots? I ask that because my personal result against those matchups (particularly RUG and maverick, as I don't usually see stoneblade) are usually a bit worse than 3-2 on the draw.
I personally ran Tarfire's in the sideboard at one point just for opposing stoneforge mystics, mother of runes, whatever else it was useful for, I still run 1 in the sideboard since it's tutorable via matron, tarfire is THEE goblin shock spell, literally. Basically my plan/setup against opposing stoneforge mystic's is to either Kill it before it becomes relevant, as in before it put's the equipment into play, or kill what the equipment goes onto just to have them waste their resoures for another turn, or if it looks like I'm not going to be able to answer, I just wait and don't play any goblins, other than Matron/Ringleader, trying to get myself to a TukTuk Scrapper, so I can answer the equipment, (usually they nab Umezawa's Jitte), then start dumping my hand.
Every ringleader gets you approximately 2 goblins on average (depending on how many you were running).Quote:
Originally Posted by that0neguy
Rounding to the nearest 0.01:
After each fetch land, a ringleader will draw you 0.04 goblins more
After each matron, a ringleader will draw you 0.04 goblins less
If you Ringleader then shuffle, a subsequent ringleader will draw you 0.08 goblins less
Result: for every 25 life points you spend on fetchlands, you will average one extra goblin drawn off ringleaders.
I did go on to say that it wasn't a statistically different, and is only something to thing about in game if you were in super tryhard mode.
Hi everyone,
I was hoping I could ask some questions about goblins?
A friend of mine wants a legacy deck, and loves aggro.
He doesn't want double-sided cards, so said no to Delver.
I suggested Goblins, as I know how resilent and consistent they can be alomst eternally!
So he asked me about strengths and weakness, then to SB choices, and I haven't really got a clue!!!
What is a good starting list for someone who's just starting in Legacy play (well versed casual player) and doesn't wanna drop the money for Piledrivers straight up?
What matchups can Goblins be expected to be terrible against, besides the obvious SnT/Omniscience/Sneak combo decks?
How does Goblins fair against Dredge - LED or Manaless etc.?
Thanks!!!
You can tell him to start by reading the primer.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
Feline has done some matchup analysis on this page, so thats something he might be interested too.
Look up Cedric Phillips' Goblins list from the SCG invitational. He made top 16 (maybe even top 10) so the list should be easy to find. His list ran Instigators instead of Piledrivers, so you'll save money there, and only 2 Ports if I recall. He did have a B splash for Weirding, so if getting your hands on a few Badlands/fetchlands is a problem you can always make it MonoR and just replace those Weirdings with a few pieces of R spot removal. You will still need 4 Wastelands though if you plan on being any sort of competitive. But Cedric's list is a great starting point for someone who wants to play Goblins but not invest in Piledrivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
#2- Goblins is generally awful against OmniTell, ANT, TES, Belcher, anything that goes off T2.
#3- Dredge is rough but can be beated G1 if they have a slow start and you have Lackey. G2/3 are really winnable if you have a hoser in your starting hand like Leyline, or strong, cheap, fast GY hate like Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction, Tormod's Crypt and creatures/a clock to go along with it.
C'omon, we shouldn't be making statemants like that anymore. You know it better.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Wasteland is a great awesome card? Yes it is. NEEDED for ANY SORT of competitive play? Well, J. Sawyer Lucy, who Top'8ed GP Atlanta this year disagree with you.
Nothing is set on stone.