[Primer] Elves!

I think Lemnear has beaten enough MBT's from the Storm side of the table to have lost all respect for them as a defensive tool. And, for the most part, I think having MBTs in your 75 is more effective as a feelgood tool than an actual tactical one. Storm plays enough discard to snag your MBT before it becomes relevant. And although they can win on the first turn, it happens less often than you might think.

However, this discussion has been had several times over in this thread. The general consensus is that MBT isn't that great.

I'd rather play swan song than MBT.

ok, thanks for the tip. I have not played many storm games, and never actually used MBT, so I'll probably take your word for it, swap that out for...well if I don't find something i like better, a sylvan library and a choke.

Do you have the 4th NO main deck? Otherwise it'd be a good card to have in your SB :)

I only own 3 NO. I will eventually get around to getting a fourth, but not before the weekend.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by danyul

I think Lemnear has beaten enough MBT's from the Storm side of the table to have lost all respect for them as a defensive tool. And, for the most part, I think having MBTs in your 75 is more effective as a feelgood tool than an actual tactical one. Storm plays enough discard to snag your MBT before it becomes relevant. And although they can win on the first turn, it happens less often than you might think.

However, this discussion has been had several times over in this thread. The general consensus is that MBT isn't that great.

---

I'm a bit late to the Party here and Dan is right about all he wrote. I'm still free to add a few words here to explain, why it's a bad card for battling storm which is often a result of not understanding it's purpose in this matchup or the way storm works towards it's wins.

Most people still believe that storm just walks all-in into MBT and that running or even mulling for it can steal a win, but thanks to Gitaxian Probe and the overall redundancy within storm decks, only inexperienced or totally greedy storm pilots will walk right into MBT instead of shrugging with their shoulders and discarding it once they are ready to combo. A blind Cabal Therapy will name MBT if the storm pilot can combo against Elves and if he needs turns to develop, he will target your business instead and deal with the MBT later. All MBT does is slowing down your opponent. Nothing more. MBT is a fine card if you can use the time storm takes to discard it, to setup your own Glimpse combo or NO for a lethal Hoof or at least a Ruric Thar, otherwise it's lackluster. It's a one-trick-pony for only a single archetype to board against and there are better options to hate out storm like Nullrod or Discard. You have to accept that you are cold to a Turn 1 combo on the play and shake off losses. Before spending too much time with evaluing SB cards against storm, I would practice to identify the cards to strip off if you fling discard at your storm opponent. This skill is criminally underdeveloped these days :/

I dont play lots of elves cause im missing cards, but I do play lots of storm. And mindbrak trap is just shitt. If u side like 8-10 cards + 2-3 trap is fine but if your main plan is to have mindbreak trap to wn the storm matchup ur wrong. trap only wins time. I as a storm played would like much more to se trap in my opp hand instead cards like nullrod, of tegg on my opp side of the field.

Some mad scientist kidnapped my test build and did strange things to it:

Maindeck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger

4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary

2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid

2 Craterhoof Behemoth

1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Wren's Run Packmaster

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

I really really need a way to beat the pesky Monoblack Reanimator deck that keeps popping up here. I always lose to it. T1 Ritual-entomb-exhume is just something I can't deal with. Leyline of the Void just takes up too many slots and needs to be mulled into. Surgical seems kinda bad considering it runs discard. I'm thinking Tormod's Crypt could buy enough time for the Deathrite/Ooze to come in, but I'm not so sure about that. Any ideas?

Against UB Reanimator, if you want real dedicated hate, Faerie Macabre is your guys. But MonoB Reaninmator? That looks like a really comitted, less consistent deck with a much weaker midgame once your own deck gets going as well. Against such a deck, if you want REAL dedicated hate, Tormod's Crypt seems ok. I'm just wondering why Crypt would take less slots than Leyline; you want both in your starting hand anyways. Surgical at least is also active on the draw and MUCH more versatile. My money's on more Surgicals + Discard. Maybe even a 2nd Ooze from the board.


ALSO: Streaming the Legacy Daily Event on Magic Online with ELVES - join us over at http://twitch.tv/itsJulian :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julian23

Against UB Reanimator, if you want real dedicated hate, Faerie Macabre is your guys. But MonoB Reaninmator? That looks like a really comitted, less consistent deck with a much weaker midgame once your own deck gets going as well. Against such a deck, if you want REAL dedicated hate, Tormod's Crypt seems ok. I'm just wondering why Crypt would take less slots than Leyline; you want both in your starting hand anyways. Surgical at least is also active on the draw and MUCH more versatile. My money's on more Surgicals + Discard. Maybe even a 2nd Ooze from the board.

---

Yes, that's exactly how the deck runs. It's actually very consistent and very fast. It just falls flat on its face sometimes by drawing the wrong cards, and it's very Belcher-ish in that it has to rely on the opening hand. It usually gets a fatty in by turn 2, but it can't deal with Leyline and Deathrite/ooze. On the play, it is usually faster than either Deathrite or Ooze, though, meaning Elves can hardly get to the midgame without seeing Iona or Elesh Norn. It can beat Surgicals via Probe-Therapy on T1. Very, very annoying deck. It's pretty much exactly this deck with 4 grisels over the 4 Jins:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=7553&iddeck=54870

I was thinking I could run 3 Crypt and bank on hitting at least one of Deathrite/Zenith/Crypt in the opening. But yeah, you're right, it's pretty much the same as running Leyline. I went 3-1 today losing to this deck because I had nothing against him except 5 discard spells. Not enough.I can't count on dodging the deck when it shows up because the tournaments are usually tiny, maybe 10-12 people. I will test against it with 4 discard / 3 Surgical and see if that's enough. I hope it is, because I don't like running narrow cards like Tormod's and Leyline at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by .Ix

Yes, that's exactly how the deck runs. It's actually very consistent and very fast. It just falls flat on its face sometimes by drawing the wrong cards, and it's very Belcher-ish in that it has to rely on the opening hand. It usually gets a fatty in by turn 2, but it can't deal with Leyline and Deathrite/ooze. On the play, it is usually faster than either Deathrite or Ooze, though, meaning Elves can hardly get to the midgame without seeing Iona or Elesh Norn. It can beat Surgicals via Probe-Therapy on T1. Very, very annoying deck. It's pretty much exactly this deck with 4 grisels over the 4 Jins:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=7553&iddeck=54870

I was thinking I could run 3 Crypt and bank on hitting at least one of Deathrite/Zenith/Crypt in the opening. But yeah, you're right, it's pretty much the same as running Leyline. I went 3-1 today losing to this deck because I had nothing against him except 5 discard spells. Not enough.I can't count on dodging the deck when it shows up because the tournaments are usually tiny, maybe 10-12 people. I will test against it with 4 discard / 3 Surgical and see if that's enough. I hope it is, because I don't like running narrow cards like Tormod's and Leyline at all.

---

Maybe some "old tech" with Crop Rotation and Bojuka Bog + Karakas, so you don't have to fear his T1 Plays if he start and his Discard can't beat lands. Karakas will also work against Show&Tell and Bojuka Bog can work against Dredge/Lands etc.

Was looking forward to the stream (as a VOD, seeing as I wasn't on then), but twitch completely butchers the sound, so I died after the first half hour :(

As for the deck, finally got myself 2 Sage's (was hoping for the gameday promo to come to MTGO) and loving it so far. I never mained a Viridian as I didn't like it, but hit quite some Enchantments with this guy so far, not to mention all the equipments :P

The deck is so much fun and I like it a lot, though I just can't seem to play legacy for an extended period of time. Sometimes I'm getting too annoyed of uninteractive games :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zombie

Some mad scientist kidnapped my test build and did strange things to it:

Maindeck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger

4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary

2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid

2 Craterhoof Behemoth

1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Wren's Run Packmaster

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

---

Playing without NO isn't that crazy, but if you do, question the 2 Craterhoofs. I don't see a reason for 4 MB Decays if you have Sage.

Seeing all the infect decks being played today at the SCG Legacy event, is it time to put a one of copy of Melira, Sylvok Outcast in the side board? I haven’t played the match up yet, but it seems like an easy game if we land it.

Several things:

1.) Landing Melira is good but FAR from a safe position. We still have no ways to interact with Blinkmoth Nexus. The standard list has essentially 4 cards to remove Melira (2 StP, Karakas+Crop Rotation) and can setup a kill in the air over a single turn.

2.) The deck is too fringe, it doesn't see enough play to warrant a SINGLE dedicated sideboard slot. I mean, I wish I could justify playing Mindbreak Traps but even Storm isn't common enough to warrant such a dedicated solution. Infect is really far from ever being relevant enough; especially because the impact of Melira is just "good". The only dedicated sb slot I currently could see justifying is Meekstone.

3.) When you are crafting a sideboard, you don't look at absolute impact/power of your options but relative impact/power compared to other, broader options. I'd much rather have more Needles and Discard overall, which are both good against Infect. Just make sure to not run your Abrupt Decays into Vines.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julian23

Several things:

1.) Landing Melira is good but FAR from a safe position. We still have no ways to interact with Blinkmoth Nexus. The standard list has essentially 4 cards to remove Melira (2 StP, Karakas+Crop Rotation) and can setup a kill in the air over a single turn.

2.) The deck is too fringe, it doesn't see enough play to warrant a SINGLE dedicated sideboard slot. I mean, I wish I could justify playing Mindbreak Traps but even Storm isn't common enough to warrant such a dedicated solution. Infect is really far from ever being relevant enough; especially because the impact of Melira is just "good". The only dedicated sb slot I currently could see justifying is Meekstone.

3.) When you are crafting a sideboard, you don't look at absolute impact/power of your options but relative impact/power compared to other, broader options. I'd much rather have more Needles and Discard overall, which are both good against Infect. Just make sure to not run your Abrupt Decays into Vines.

---

Christ that was a fast reply!

Guessing you mean Inkmoth, not Blinkmoth. Also how is Meekstone relevant against an infect deck? Maybe I am missing something?
Thanks again for the crazy fast reply to my question.

Yeah right, I meant Inkmoth Nexus :smile:

I never said Meekstone was good/relevant vs Infect. I said it's the only dedicated sideboard slot I could see justify playing in the current meta. Other than that, I think we're much better off having generally applicable cards; bonus if they're also sideboardable vs. Miracles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julian23

Yeah right, I meant Inkmoth Nexus :smile:

I never said Meekstone was good/relevant vs Infect. I said it's the only dedicated sideboard slot I could see justify playing in the current meta. Other than that, I think we're much better off having generally applicable cards; bonus if they're also sideboardable vs. Miracles.

---

Got it. Thought maybe they played infect a lot different across the pond than they did here!
Guessing you would know better than I about side board, and thanks for explaining your stance.
Kevin

Needling Inkmoth in a postboard game is so powerful, especially if you're on a 4 Abrupt Decay plan. It basically means they're suddenly on 4 Blighted Agents as threats, all of which match up poorly to AD, and Glistener Elf can get blocked, so isn't usually too scary. I'd rather have Needles and Decays than Melira.