Printable View
Wasteland might be your best friend in this matchup. The sideboard doesn't help very much in my opinon, but here's what I tend to use. Pyrostatic Pillar is usually too little too late against the storm decks of today. Usually, I like to use Thorn of Amethyst or Chalice of the Void. Red Elemental Blast is also quite useful to disrupt cantrips and Mystical Tutor. Another possibility is Pyroclasm in order to wipe out Goblin and Zombie tokens, but at this point, it's probably too antisynergetic.
Jrsthehtird, malchar and dearleader thanks very much for the well thought out explanations.
Dearleader I actually did think exactly as you said that it would be like super fast aggro beats that would win games, not realizing that the decks power is in CA. I will have to rethink how I look at the deck and that definitely makes sense of why there are very few non goblin cards that get played.
I didn't clarify very well my problem with thorn vs chalice. To me chalice makes sense because you can drop it at 0 and it doesn't really mess up your tempo. Granted that dropping a chalice at 0 is not as good as dropping a thorn (against storm/belcher specifically), but I feel like a lot of times you will not get to cast thorn vs combo especially if they are on the play (because they will have already gone off by the time you hit 2 mana).
Earwig squad seems cool, but I feel like storm goes off so consistently turn 1 or two that to have a chance the solution needs to cost 1 or less (which I know is reaching pretty hard). I could totally be wrong on this one, my experience in legacy is admittedly limited.
If you guys don't mind I have a few more questions regarding the black splash, and assuming no green splash:
1. What do you all think the best lands to run?
2. What do you think the correct number of warren weirdings are?
3. Do you think port is required in the black splash, and can it create mana issues for the goblins player in a splash?
Thanks guys, I have learned a ton reading the pages of this post!
You can get Earwig on turn 2 if you drop Lackey turn 1, swing and drop a Warchief.
ANT and doomsday have a critical turn of two or three, rarely ever turn one, not to say it doesn't happen. Chalice at 0 to slow, lackey followed by squad is about the only way to beat combo aside from the fizzling, AN'ing poorly, or you having a wacky turn three kill games one and three.
I'm sure you meant lackey, drop in a frogtosser bannerett, prowl squad. Frogtosser is so much better on your curve, and half of the reason for playing the black splash.
I believe 3 edicts, 2 incinerators, or 4 edicts, 1 incinerator is the consensus.
My plan against combo is to hope for the T1 lackey, T2 put in frogtosser, prowl squad, or for them to just lose to their own deck. I'd rather have better game against winnable matchups than to attempt to achieve a 20% win rate vs storm from my current 10%. Both situations are grim, but losing most of the time with the four anti-combo cards just means I have dead slots against the rest of the field that I stand a chance against.
Or you can just play 4 chalice and 4 mindbreak trap in your sideboard.
If you play RG Goblins sideboard can be: 4 Chalice, 4 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Krosan Grip, 3 Pyrokinesis and 1 Tranquil Domain.
@Foul: Have you still been rockin MonoR/RG splash mostly? Any new findings in testing, 'optimal' lists in your opinion?
Oh I definitely run those, but I just forgot about it when I posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Media314r8
I'm planning to take this to a large tourny ~70-80. With such a large event, I'm expecting a highly developed meta of mainly countertop, dredge, reanimator, and combo (ANT). Mindbreak trap makes the matchup against combo A LOT better. I feel like thoughtseize is more versatile sb option than thorn. I was a little iffy about going down to 1 incinerator, but feel the list is solid enough to do so. Thoughts/opinions?
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftan
3 Warren Weirding
3 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Gempalm Incinerator
8 Mountain
4 Badland
4 Wasteland
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Rishadan Port
1 Auntie's Hovel
Sideboard:
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Thoughtseize
3 Perish
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
Just a couple of questions you need to ask yourself when splashing black.
With the Black Splash has Frogtosser been considered? If so then continue on ahead on. Some players like myself feel he warrants a inclusion, others may not.
Ask yourself if Cabal therapy is better then thoughtseize. Do you know what to name? If not then go ahead and run thoughtseize.
Finnally why open yourself up to stifle at all? I would cut the 2 fetches for more auntie's hovels.
With the Black splash you also have other options for graveyard hate. Has those been considered as well?
Good luck in your tournament, I hope this helped.
Going to a similar tourney next weekend. Here's what I'm going to be testing for the next week:
Land: 21
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
7 Mountain
4 Auntie's Hovel
Non-Dudes: 6
4 Aether Vial
2 Warren Weirding
Dudes: 33
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Frogtosser Banneret
2 Earwig Squad
1 Mad Auntie
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
VERY tentative sideboard: 15
2 Warren Weirding
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Earwig Squad
4 Duress
4 Thorn of Amethyst
Need some advice here. Haven't done much testing but this is the only thing I can really build.
Need input on Mogg Fanatic, Mogg War Marshal. I don't know if they're good enough to run (people have mentioned them but I haven't seen too much discussion).
Also, sideboard help. The Thorn spot could be either that or Mindbreak Trap, I only own 1 of each so my choice might be dependent on which one I can get a set of by next weekend, but still looking for input there. Also, Duress should probably be Thoughtseize, but I don't own them. I don't own any Perish either. What about Ensnaring Bridge against Progenitus, reanimator, or any other huge beef strategies? I own them so it might work for me. Also, Pithing Needle? That should probably go in the Duress/Seize spot but is it worth it?
And general sideboarding strategies would help. I always find that to be the hardest part of playing serious Magic.
I run Frogtosser, he fits the curve a lot better and one copy out lets you do awesome things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter245
I suppose Auntie's Hovel would be great, I would just need to grab a playset in a week. I could probably manage that.
Cabal Therapy sounds like a really good idea, I will try to get them and test.
What other options are there? Bojuka Bog and Ravenous Trap are all I can think of, and I don't think they're better than Relic.
Im going to try mono red again at the next tournament I am going to in March. Ive tried the black splash, but I get very wary about running fetches and running port just isnt really a good choice as far as I can tell in the splash... Here is my list, some changes since my last:
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
15 Mountain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incinerator
2 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshall
SB:
3 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 chieftain is pretty nutty. Instigator just wasnt doing it for me in my meta, if things go more control oriented I may put them back in sometime, but war marshall/chieftain is pretty sexy for me at the moment.
Frogtosser has been considered. The question was what to remove for it. Personally, I didn't feel like it was that much help, but maybe I'll do a little play testing with it in the next week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter245
Personally, I say no. In most matchups, the 2 damage is worth taking. Most of the time whats going to be killing me is a progenitus. Thoughtseize is our only real answer to things like humility and other random things. I like it enough to keep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter245
I threw them in for deck thinning and the option to grab basics, but you might be right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter245
Crypt is fast, which is nice. Relic also works really well against the goyf matchup. I considered rav trap, but it really only hits dredge, and any half decent player will cabal therapy you first. Only other card I gave serious thought to was Faerie Macabre, but I can't do very many broken things with him, so I didn't feel he deserved a spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter245
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter245
Since you guys are splashing black, would [card]dark confidant[/card] be a good replacement for frog tosser?
For my build, definitely not, since I don't run any Warchiefs.
In the other one, I still don't think he's worth a spot because he's not a goblin. Plus, our cure is a little too high to want to play Bob. I run 4 5cc guys and 5 4cc guys, so he would hurt a lot. I was thinking to myself about Night's Whisper last night, but the more non-goblins you run the worse Ringleader gets.
I don't think there has been a big enough metagame shift at this point to change from MonoR and occasionally Rg. In the end, the splash one plays is pretty dependent on that person's metagame. I still firmly believe that around 3 warren instigators is optimal in every non-black list, pretty much no matter what. I haven't been able to test as much as I used to, unfortunately, because of my new classes for this semester (college comes first).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibsonmac
@JonBarber, usually people don't play warren weirding and stingscourger. I think you should go 4/2 weirding/gempalm, or 4/3 weirding/gempalm, or 4/2/1 weirding/gempalm/stingscourger, IF you want to run so much removal. People usually don't do this because weirding and stingscourger are good against similar decks. 7 removal is quite a bit. 5 is standard and 6 is heavy (as Media pointed out), at least for Rb.
Warren weirding is our best answer to progenitus, but that matchup is usually pretty good anyway.
@jrsthethird, mogg fanatic is pretty bad. It has two general purposes, dark confidant and bridges. If you are expecting a lot of both, I would consider running it. MWM is great in the zoo matchup and other random aggro decks. It is also good with lots of chieftains. But I'd almost always rather run instigator. It's like if they printed a 7/7 for GW. Would Zoo run that over Qasali Pridemage, within a vaccuum of those four slots? Yes they would. Instigator is extremely powerful, and MWM is not. (obviously zoo could run both but that's not the point)
MonoR is the best in the merfolk and zoo matchups. Rb is the best against decks like countertop and combo. Rg deals with a lot of randoms. And Rw does a little of everything. Be careful not to splash just because you own the duals for it.
This is version of the deck. I felt the biggest problem facing gobos was mana developement. Thus I added Chrome mox and replaced wasteland with Mutavualt. Sure it makes you exta vunrable to deed, but deed is played less than ever before. Thislist doesn't make zoo and good Match-up, but it does add some percentage points in your favor.
Lands
8 [B] Mountain
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [MOR] Mutavault
Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [P2] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [FNM] Goblin Warchief
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 4 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
I will probably play with the removal spots a little. I love how stingscourger works with Vial. Warren Weirding is great, I would love to find room for a 3rd or 4th, but I don't want to cut any more Incinerators.
After talking to a couple friends and figuring out what to borrow, my board is going to be
4 Thoughtseize
3 Perish
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Mindbreak Trap
If I feel like the metagame shifts more in favor of any of my split board spots, I will adjust accordingly.
Just curious, FoulQ, why do you feel mono red is best vs. zoo? As a zoo player I find Rb a lot more annoying in my experience, just because warren weirding is so good. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.
Who do you target when you use warren weirding?