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I am still unsure about Rite of Flame over Cabal Ritual. I like the instant speed of Cabal Ritual but the casting cost of two is what turns me away. Rite of Flame is Cheaper, can still produce more mana late game if more are in graveyard. If I do switch to Cabal Ritual I will switch the Shattering Spree in side to a Meltdown. I feel my 3 color AnT lists is very close to Liam Kane's TnT list. The idea was putting the speed of T.E.S. in the stable mana base of AnT. I may be trying to do too much.
So I tested Snapcaster a lot (probably 40-50 matches or so), and I think I've decided I'm not a huge fan. Most of my playtesting has just been on MTGO or in 8-12 person local tournaments, if that's relevant.
It is good against controlley decks (mostly U/W of sort, also against U/B/x or whatever), but it's a little too slow against most other things (even against RUG, I usually don't want to spend 3 mana on a duress or a ponder or whatever). So, I don't think it really belongs in the maindeck, and I don't think it's good enough against controlley decks to warrant a specific sideboard slot.
Also, on Rite of Flame vs Cabal Ritual, they really do lead to completely different decks. Rite of Flame is a much faster card, Cabal Rit is much more powerful after turn 3+. If your deck is built to regularly go off before turn 3, you probably shouldn't be running cabal rit.
Didn't notice the rite of flame over cabal rit. In this decktype I vastly prefer cabal ritual. When you have multiple cabal rit's and they are all threshed, it is a very great feeling. Also of note is that having rituals in multiple colors can muck up past in flames. I, for one, like being able to resolve PiF with just black mana floating instead of black and red mana floating. Also of note, cabal rit is almost LED 5-8 in this deck. I almost always like the card when I draw it as when I go off on turn 3 I almost always have threshold/cabal rit is a champion. I wouldn't ever cut it for rite of flame in here. Rite of flame is for TES because TES has a maindeck EtW now and they have a lot more cards to use with red mana as well as a radically different manabase as well as chrome mox.
If meltdown doesn't peform for you you could try pulverize, the other artifact destruction option. Being free has its advantages while meltdown not being free can potentially cost you the game i.e. you meltdown and have to pass the turn due to insufficient resources to go off and then the opponent goes ahead and drops another 3sphere/chalice/annoying hatepiece and you die a little inside.
Ive also tried liam's TNT list and various other mashups looking for the middle ground but in the end I came to the same conclusion that most people here already knew and advised me of; that CR is just better than RoF for ANT.
The reason I choose to cut tendrils is EtW is amazing as a short storm option so I want to maximize access to it from t1 off 4 mana instead of 5-8 mana where I will almost always opt for ad nauseam or PiF anyway.Quote:
I wouldn't cut the maindeck tendrils for EtW in this particular deck. That can bottleneck you unnecessarily when you're going to attempt to combo and find yourself 2 mana short of IT -> wish -> tendrils for the instant win. I know that if I had swapped in EtW for the maindeck ToA at KC I would have had some sticky situations come up where I don't instantly win with tendrils and am then foiled by batterskull or some other anti EtW tech like terminus. Also don't want to let my opponent get another draw, as that could cause my demise.
Way I see it I went from these options: 5+ mana- ad nauseam, 6+ mana- EtW/PiF
to these options: 4+ mana- EtW, 5+ mana- ad nauseam, 6+ mana EtW/PiF
The cost is g1 I incur a relatively narrow and often irrelevant drawback. I also avoiding drawing tendrils in my opener which I almost always hate as opposed to opening with EtW which almost always rocks.
Ya batterskull/terminus suck but they are pretty much limited to 1-2 archtypes and here I agree EtW isnt great although batterskull is mostly a non issue due to discard and they wont be hardcasting BS in time. Most other decks not packing maindeck terminus/elesh norn dont really have a timely answer to 10+ tokens. Dont get me wrong man I love tendrils though.
“[Tendrils] is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or as random as [EtW], but a more elegant weapon for a more...civilized age. Before the dark times, before [RUG delver].”
I have switched the Rite of Flames for Cabal Rituals and the Shattering Spree for Meltdown. My lists is now Tombstalkers main. I was thinking about cutting 2 Gilded Drake for 2 Karakas in the board.
For the people who are playing with a UBr list( similar to Timo -GP Ghent) , how good is the Grim Tutor at SB? It is actually good or just a "necessary evil" ??
Thx.
Grim Tutor is really good in the side. Iv been playing 1 even before GP Ghent.
Its one of those cards that is really nice to have, but not necessary. I wouldn't go out of my way to obtain one unless you are really invested into playing ANT for a long duration of time. I have one in my side board and use it all the time.Quote:
Shimi
For the people who are playing with a UBr list( similar to Timo -GP Ghent) , how good is the Grim Tutor at SB? It is actually good or just a "necessary evil" ??
Thx.
I'm glad people are finally realizing how absurd Past in Flames is. I cannot sing that cards praises enough.
THERAPY/PROBE or PREORDAIN/THOUGHTSEIZE
is everyone pretty much in the probe/ therapy camp now instead of preordain/thoughtseize? and can someone give me their arguments as to why I have my arguments in my head and my reasons I prefer, but just want someone else's opinions to help challenge mine and give a fresh set of eyes looking at it.
Dread of night:
I do not think dread of night is worthwhile in sideboards versus maverick, the main enemy is thalia/ GSZ, and you need two to negate the zenith targets that beat them (pridemage, teeg). I think just beating them fast is probably fine and having your wish target sweeper of choice be massacre(if on BW), since one teeg main plus 4 GSZ gives all your discard the ability to stop teeg unless they mise it. also burning 4 sideboard slots on something very narrow. (also increases the accuracy of your therapies, if that is your discard of choice, since you will almost always be naming GSZ)
IT/ BW or Grim/ IT
I think BW/IT is the way to go since it gives you some slightly better sideboard options but also think if you go this route you need a tutor in the side either grim or IT. I personally like playing the 4th IT in the side to keep the BW> IT > PiF chain open, it is also less mana/life intense than grim.
Ya past in flames is nuts I actually cut it once...but I blame the crack. Thing with dread of night is its a one mana sweeper that ignores mom. Anything more like double dread is just gravy.
I don't own grims but ill take a shot at probe therapy. Thoughtseize is more versatile as discard goes, preordain gives better selection then probe. Thing is those cards cost mana. Probes are free .5 discards that turn therapies into thoughtseize chants. Add empty the warrens and therapies are free. Add past in flames and you barely need rituals to storm 10.
Only joking on the crack
PiF is indeed insane. Flashbacking stuff is fun especially when you're playing against blue where you grind it out typically unless they have a poor to mediocre draw.
On probe/therapy against preordain/thoughtseize. I like probe/therapy a whole lot more as it speeds the deck up quite a bit to have a 2 life cantrip versus a one blue cantrip and when therapy knocks out multiple cards with one blow it is a great feeling.
If you don't want a narrow sideboard slot in the form of dread of night I suggest karakas. The card answers almost all of the hatebears in the format sans canonist. While also being quite potent against reanimator and ok against sneak and show.
Also of note, thoughtseize's lifeloss was pretty annoying in my eyes. If you ran seize as well as probe for example, ad nauseam becomes significantly worse as losing 4 life from just casting spells before ad nauseam is painful. And don't get me started on hardcasting probe, as in order to do that you have to have basically nothing in your hand of relevance and if that is the case you're probably dead.
I don't like the idea of having just massacre as an out to teeg. I'd much rather have pyroclasm or virtue's ruin instead, as being locked out under a teeg is the nut low with this deck. Also don't like the "win before they drop it" option as this deck isn't particularly fast and if you're on the draw you literally have 1 turn to combo out, 2 if you're incredibly lucky as the opponent is likely going to drop a turn 2 thalia/teeg since they run 8-9 copies of those cards postboard (3-4 thalia, 1 teeg, 4 GSZ.)
If you can turn 1 ad nauseam go for it. I know that every time I can go turn 1 ad nauseam I do so unless I'm facing a blue deck on the draw as that means that they likely have spell pierce/FoW/brainstorm into FoW. On the play though you all know the odds (60% chance to win 40% chance to lose.)
Grim tutor in the SB is quite nice. It's a little slow, but it often sets up a turn 3 or 4 combo attempt unless it's some grindy blue matchup. Not having it will sometimes lose you the game though as it opens up quite a lot of lines of play.
Any thoughts on multiple (I'm thinking three) Chrome Mox in the sideboard as a way to speed up against decks you just want to kill quickly?
also are you guys on 13/14/15/16 lands? I have been on 15 with a chrome mox.
my tutor split has been 4 BW/3IT. any suggestions either way? my build has been pretty good for me I am just trying to shake things up and see if I like things any differently.
and on split of therapy probe are you guys going 4probe/3therapy/ 3 duress or 4? I hated the 4th probe when I tried it a few times. I think i will be giving it another go though soon. I also never ran seize and probe i link together probe and therapy and preordain and seize into groups since the life loss from both seize and probe is pretty rough. thinking about it now i may switch since often my preordains do not do very much selecting, but having selection is nice. but i can see the probes speeding things up (less mana)
agree on C rit over rite of flame due to waiting with this deck.
blind therapy almost always names GSZ or force, yes?
Don't think I can acquire multiple karakas's, and people play canonist against me so I need to deal with it. will probably work on a wish board in more depth int he next few days. is meltdown relevant?, do people play MUD/ spheres any more? or do you guys just hope to dodge? and is the wave of reanimator/dredge gone for now? is grave hate necessary?
I realize a lot of the last paragraph is local, but I was just curious about larger trends.
I used to play one main and one board, it was ok. the few times I did it was kind of awesome having more outs with an AN, but it had definitely failed me once which was frustrating. It gave me something absurd like 9-10 outs from when I was at approx 8 when I had other pieces to finish the job in my flop.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefringthing
I am a supporter but do not know where to make the room.
I like 4 Probe/4 Duress/3 Therapy. I think that set up gives you the best game against blue decks G1. I don't think Therapy is a great card (in this deck), it is just a necessary evil in order to run 4 Probes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
These are the current trends:
14 lands/ 1 mox
3-4 cabal therapy (blind therapy is FoW/thalia id say, I try to cantrip first. With 11 peak effects blind doesnt happen all that often tbh)
3-4 duress
4 probe (replace preordain, miles ahead of preordain man)
4 IT/ 3 BW
ThomasDowd- you helped me into this archtype so none of this is news to you im sure but IMO in the grand scheme of things, I think chalice/sphere decks are actually brewing, sneak attack is waning, reanimator and dredge are always lurking. The big change is tribal is back in force plus the usuals like RUG and maverick are still here too with the latest power being miracleblade. I would guess that counterbalance is declining and sweepers are becoming more relevant.
My local meta doesnt shift that quickly though and id guess most other peoples dont either unless they frequent very large tourneys. Right now I maindeck EtW over tendrils but if my group catches up to the web then I will have to revert back.
Anyway at any given time my board consists of 10-11 cards to bring in and only 4-5 essential wish targets (2 wincons, 1 artifact sweeper, 1 creature sweeper). I face MUD so I prefer shattering spree, its also why I like gilded drakes for MUD/SnS/reanimator, nothing like stealing a wurmcoil engine echoing truth the drake then stealing another beatstick. Anyway my sweeper is currently infest but may become pyroclasm.
Karakas vs. DoN I run 4 dreads and with sneak attack falling out of favor DoN is better depending on your local environment, recently it seemed everyone and their dog was running karakas, at least on the web.
Thats what I got.
I run 3 Chrome Mox and a 2nd Ad Naus in my SB, and it's been excellent. I also have quite a bit more SB space, as I don't run BW, and my maindeck is kinda clunky, as I run 16-17 land usually (I hate losing to RUG)
RE: blind therapy - against a blue deck, the only time I could see casting a blind therapy is if you were going to kill them that turn, and probably only if they're tapped out (in which case Force is obviously the right call)
For blind therapy I almost always name FoW if I don't know the deck my opponent is on. Then again I usually sculpt before casting discard, as it is better to cast discard later unless my opponent is on the maverick/hatebear plan. If I know I'm against maverick and they didn't go turn 1 GSZ for arbor or turn 1 noble hierarch I will name thalia. If they do go turn 1 GSZ I'll probably name thalia. If they go turn 1 noble I'm probably naming green sun's zenith.
I'm not a fan of boarding in more chrome moxen just so you can maybe goldfish faster as that is a very risky plan versus just boarding in anti hate. I have no room in my sideboard really for them either.
I'm playing the GP Ghent list -1 IoK -1 Chrome Mox +2 Duress. So I'm playing just 14 land really. But chrome mox is pretty bad hence the reason for cutting it.
I run 3 Wish 4 Infernal tutor. Drawing multiple wishes is generally pretty bad especially when we simply splash for the card. I can't count the number of times I've drawn BW and wish it had been infernal tutor no pun intended.
I'm looking for some advice. I'm playing a UBr list with a small red splash just for Past in Flames (2 Grim tutors next to the Infernals). I'm aware that I'm giving up the flexibility that Burning Wish offers but this version has a nice linear gameplan and very consistently goes off when not faced with early hatebears or stuff like Chalice.
I'd like to improve my game one percentages against Maverick because I hate dying to Thalia or Teeg when I don't yet have access to bounce or removal in my deck.
I'm thinking of cutting some lands to play some number of Chrome Moxen to speed up the deck a little bit, which I can then board out for Karakas to raise the mana consistency while at the same time having an answer to problematic hatebears.
I'm also considering playing a miser's Chain of Vapor but it seems clunky to have to Grim Tutor for it when I don't find it through cantrips.
I could also design my sideboard in a way to have much better chances post board, but that could cost me matches against other archetypes.
What do you guys recommend I'd do?
What is your protection package? You could try squeezing one maybe two IoK to hedge the match just slightly, maybe 3/3/2 therapy/duress/IoK or 4/3/1. I dont own grims or I would feel obligated to play them but even with BW the g1 match is a crapshoot sometimes tbh.
The misers chain of vapor for teeg is probably your best option since you can go off through thalia, its just much harder. I would consider CoV before additional moxen though especially since thalia makes mox cost 1 anyway, plus multiples are usually crap.
Edit- as for the SB I dont see how we can get away without designing our board for hatebears. I bring in 6 cards plus wish targets.