Can we make a 3 color deck instead of 4 color deck?
Its already weak against wasteland
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Can we make a 3 color deck instead of 4 color deck?
Its already weak against wasteland
I did some quick testing with the 16 one mana beatsticks lists (guides, nacatl, ape, lion) and the deck is really consistent. I find that I am often flooding with 22 lands. You guys have no issues with 23? And I've been testing against decks with 4 wastelands, so I'm pretty sure 22 is plenty. Changes I noticed from traditional Pridemage/Kotr Zoo are:
1. It's really really fast and gives slower combo decks like Reanimator and Hive mind fits.
2. Equipment is a really big problem, especially batterskull. Without Pridemage, if they have the misstep/force for your removal on Stoneforge, it is Game Over.
3. It punishes the slower blue decks out there, especially the blue mirror-tuned misstep decks (Dismember over simple removal, really?). 16 Cat Zoo really punishes these mirror centric decks.
4. Wastelands has been very 50/50 for me. Sometimes its awesome and I screw them just enough to race their bombs. Sometimes, they just shrug it off since I'm giving them land with Guide/Path. I'm really not sold on wastes. They are fine, but the deck can do ok without them.
I agree, equipments can be very hard to deal with. But if your meta is filled with Stoneforge Mystic, you simply put Qasali Pridemage in main.
I am trying the Pat Cox build from SCG Richmond with 20 lands. In my experience, you don't want to use time on attacking their manabase with wasteland, especially when you are playing with goblin guide. It is extremely consistent, and if you get the opponent below 10 life, it should be possible to burn him to death. For reference, here is his build:
20 LANDS
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
23 CREATURES
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
15 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
SIDEBOARD
1 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Ranger of Eos
I have swapped SoBM with SoFF, but that can change anytime depending on meta. Actually I'm not even that sold on the single Stoneforge and 2 swords, but I havent found out what to put in instead. It should probably be some kind of graveyard hate like Tormod's Crypt or Faerie Macabre.
I play a slower zoo deck, with 2SFM, arbor, 2 noble and stuff,
will share it later btw.. And I also play 2 tins treet holigan, they're the bomb :)
But the problem is if I would look them with GSZ, than their effect doesn't count..
So I'm thinking of playing also qqasali who's better but the problem is you need to sac him.
what do you guys do against the faster decks and things that play natural order smt like that?
I mostly lose then.
But I'm also testing fast deck with only one and 2 drops and like Ivanpei says then you are mostly even faster then hove mind, or other combo decks, and the one drop is quite important, blue decks have it hard with many creatures and they can't counter them all and will die because of it.
I was thinking of smt like wing shards side :O?
the fast deck testing:
12 fetch
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 POP
2 Fireblast
3 Path to Exile
It is so fast not normal and it owns but if you get to lategame you're fucked so I don't know still testing...
I see 12 fetchlands and 0 Steppe Lynx? Doinitwrong imo.
Why would that be wrong? Most people don't like Lynx, and there is nothing wrong with running 12 Fetches in a Grim Lavamancer deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
You really dont want more than 3 lands per game, unless you sided in Ranger of eos or elspeth. All lands I draw after the third is a card i rather wantet a thread or burn.
I still think Steppe Lynx is viable in Sligh-esque builds. I also think not running Wasteland in that strategy is a mistake.
Woah wait, people in the Zoo thread are finally interested in Fast Zoo again? I never thought I'd see the end of the Big Zoo craze.
Here's my Sligh list from like 2009 or 2010 or something:
R/g/w Naya Sligh
// Lands (20)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Plateau
2 [UNH] Mountain
// Creatures (16)
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [AN] Kird Ape
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx
// Spells (24)
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [ROE] Forked Bolt
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [VI] Fireblast
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
Hi, I'm thinking playing this dark zoo in legacy but I also think if it could be ok in modern?? I was thinking something like this
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Dark Confidant
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Marsh Flats
4 Arid Mesa
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
2 Stomping Grounds
1 Blood Crypt
1 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
don't know what to play in sb because don't what people are going to play. Any comments and thoughts about the list??
Has Domain Zoo been tried and excused from Legacy? I played it years ago when it was an Extended deck with Tribal Flames and Gaea's Might both being exceptionally strong at the time. I could see GM being less impressive with Legacy's wealth of one-mana removal spells and Wasteland may be a problem for both cards.
I may have answered my own question, but has it been tried?
I play it from time-to-time on MWS and it destroys. Although, that's hardly proof of its ability. Here's what I use.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Tribal Flames
3 Gaea's Might
I have an affinity for porting old Extended decks to Legacy since I started playing competitively around that time. Tribal Flames acts as a one sided Price of Progress from my experiences and Gaea's Might is super Giant Growth, but I can see its vulnerabilities. Too much liability for Legacy?
Has anyone tried running Mental Misstep in Zoo? If so, what variant were you running (i.e. normal, Cat Sligh, Big, Blue, etc.)?
I feel like any deck that isn't running Mental Misstep is simply suboptimal in the current metagame, since getting your 1-drop Misstepped is such a tempo beating. I have had some good success running Mental Misstep in Rubin Zoo for a few months since New Phyrexia came out, but I've decided to put Zoo aside since the metagame has shifted so much (with almost no Merfolk, Goblins, B/W to prey on).
It also seems like smaller Zoo variants with more one drops are have had some limited success in SCG Opens, although I'm not sure whether this is simply a reflection of the fact that smaller Zoo is the most popular form. None of the builds I have seen run Mental Misstep though, so if you have experience with that type of a deck, please give me some feedback! :smile:
The recent trend is to overload on one drops. MM is horrible in a pure aggro deck. Don't get sucked in, and don't think in a vacuum like you are/did in that post. Play through it, people aren't playing CB anymore, so filling up on cheap beats isn't a downside when you can cast multiple beaters a turn
I agree with what you said here, but despite containing a very similar core, Rubin Zoo plays out very differently than normal Zoo. It's certainly not a pure aggro deck, and it has enough card advantage to make up for the occasional dead Mental Misstep. I found that the most important factor in my opening hand towards winning (besides not being mana screwed/mana flooded) was actually having a Mental Misstep, rather than an aggressive one-drop. Mental Misstep is also awesome in Blue Zoo for obvious reasons, even though I think that deck has a lot of other problems working against it. Of course, I'm digressing, and I can understand why it can be potentially bad in smaller Zoo decks that gear towards speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
My problem with normal Zoo decks is it doesn't give you significant room to outplay your opponent. It's advantages are fairly obvious: it is extremely consistent and it punishes poor draws/decisions from your opponent. However, autoscooping to a Batterskull unless you're able to quickly rip a Qasali Pridemage seems pretty miserable; perhaps my perception of this matchup is flawed, and I wouldn't mind being correct, but as it currently stands, I don't like the fact that the deck isn't very flexible.
Zoo does not "Autoscoop" to Batterskull. Run some Pridemages, first of all, if you expect to see that card. Second, we have minimum of 12 removal spells for their turn 2 Stoneforge, and we want to be clearing the board of creatures anyway. Just "Autobolt" the Mystic and don't get Dazed. As long as you have at least 2 removal spells by turn 2 it's not that hard to fight through.
I'm up to 4 MD Pridemages and 2-3 Ancient Grudge in the board. I'm having more issues with Knight based decks than Batterskull decks.
I've switched to testing Cox' SCG list. I've played half a dozen matches so far and, as said above, it's pretty consistent. Things I dislike is lack of Pridemage main and lack of Price of Progress. Continuing, my experience with Lighting Helix is so-so; in other Zoo builds with less one-drops I didn't like it much but here it's okay, what with your curve being so low. IMO, the best thing about it is the fact that it's an instant.
Regarding the sideboard, Elspeth and Ranger of Eos with only 20 lands seem a bit risky.
All in all, I'm going to continue testing it, but running eight Apes and the full four Guides make the deck a bit of a one-trick pony, not to mention me a bit nervous, although the bucketfuls of burn go a long way to finish off an opponent once your apes have swung a few times.
The one-drop heavy, burn heavy lists are actually Sligh. Zoo and Sligh are fundamentally different.
Zoo attempts to overwhelm an opponent with creature beats, primarily using burn as removal. This is why those lists only run 7-8 burn spells, and run 20+ creatures. Zoo plans on doing the bulk of its damage via creature beats.
Sligh, on the other hand, only intends to use its creatures as more efficient burn spells. If a 3/3 Nacatl swings twice, thats 6 damage for 1 card and 1 mana. Once the creature plan goes to shit, and it will at some point, the deck switches to being a burn deck, and kills the opponent through inevitability. Sligh plans on doing alot more damage (to the dome) via burn spells than a Zoo list does.
When building a list that is on the borderline of Zoo and Sligh, it's important to keep the fundamentals of both strategies in mind. For example, you cannot have a one-drop heavy list with only a few burn spells and expect to do well.
Sligh is all about effeciency, which is why the Sligh list I posted doesn't run Tarmogoyf nor Grim Lavamancer. Sure, both of those guys are heavy duty damage dealers over the course of a game, but they are far less effecient at doing damage than the other creatures options.
Goyf cannot swing until turn 3 at the earliest, usually for only 3 damage.
Grim Lavamancer only does 1 damage a turn until you can start activating him, at which point he's 1 mana for 2 damage each time. So essentially, if you start activating him the turn after he comes into play, your paying RR for 2 damage, RRR for 4, RRRR for 6, etc. Compare that to Nacatl doing 6 for G, and you can see the efficiency difference.
The way I see it, the best approaches are the ones that commit fully to their strategy. If you're going to go a Fast Zoo/Sligh route, maximize efficiency. If you're going to go a Zoo/Big Zoo route, maximize power/cost, i.e Nacatl, Goyf, KoTR, etc.
This is a terrible logic! RRRR for 6 dmg might be true in some way, but it cannot be countered and it turns your graveyard into burn during mid-late game where you usually don't have much to use for your mana anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Unless you know your opponent has a sweeper you go balls to the walls and spit out every creature you got as fast as possible. In a deck with mainly one-drops this is done pretty quickly, and it's lovely to have grim lavamancer to do some afterburn or clear the path for the beaters.
I'm going to play modern in a local tournament on sunday. I'm going to play domain zoo. Any thought what kind of list I should be playing? Are there any players who are going attend Pro Tour: Philadelphia and play zoo in modern?