Mats runs all 5 maindeck for awhile if I am not mistaken. Don«t have info on opinion though...Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
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Mats runs all 5 maindeck for awhile if I am not mistaken. Don«t have info on opinion though...Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Yep his latest lists look like they're running it main. I'd certainly credit him with popularizing the idea as well and since the MTGO meta is basically all miracles and assorted UBx decks, the card is super good main. Imo it's going to be small innovations like that are going to give this deck an edge with the current meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
Was actually discussing with a friend of mine the inclusion of a Swamp on the manabase. Matt comment that a few post ago and it stuck with me since Miracles are adopting From the Ashes heavily and the abundance of MonoR Stompy Online.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
He started looking to my manabase and questioned me about Maze of Ith and its position on the Meta. Right now, at least for me, is almost always a useless card... Meta is heavy on Miracles, Leovolds and TNN. I will run some leagues with the swamp over maze and Barbarian Ring(Targets Jace) over Cabal Pit.
I ran Aggro Goyf Loam last night 1-2-1 (complete netdeck of the posted list, except with a jacked up 5 minute sideboard and -maze of ith, +thespian + dark depths), seemed to be okay. There were definitely a few cards I would've liked to have main. Very rusty since I haven't played since GP Louisville, made sub optimal plays but none were very game breaking.
Side:
2 Surgical
2 Canonist
2 Thoughtseize
3 Swords
1 Painful Truths
2 Crop Rotation
1 Tabernacle
1 Decay
1 K Command
DnT: 2-1: I get swarmed and can't get Marit Lage through. Game 2 a Kolaghan's Command eliminates a Recruiter for Flickerwisp (kill a Sword, discard the flickerwisp), Liliana goes the distance through a RIP. Game 3 I'm able to out value with Liliana and Punishing Fire while Goyfs eat swords, allowing Bob and Knight to live. Goyf and Knight finish the job.
-Chalices, Bog, Depths
+Decay, Swords, K Command, Tabernacle
Ballista Food Chain: 1-2: Toxic Deluge eliminates a DRS and Eternal Scourge. Swing with a 4/4 Knight, land a second Knight, next turn don't attack, make Marit Lage EOT. Opponent was going to combo off my next turn. Game 2 die to a quick turn 3 combo while my mull to 6 does nothing with Wasteland, Fetch stranding an Abrupt Decay in hand. Game 3 get overrun by Leovold and DRS while my mana base is too awkward to efficiently play the Liliana, 2x Decay, Canonist, Bob, 2x Fires that I draw. Knights are extracted and I don't draw Goyfs to hold down the board.
-Chalices, Bog
+Thoughtseize, Truth, Canonist, Decay. Wasn't really sure of my boarding here.
Miracles of Science (Omni + Counterbalance): Chalice on 1 followed by Goyfs end game 1 quickly. Games 2 and 3 I can't answer SnT - Omni well. Game 2 I get him to 5 with Liliana, Canonist, Bob on board with Dark Depths waiting in the wings. Lands SnT-Omni, plays Emrakul. Make Marit Lage, sac everything else, kill Emrakul in combat. He's able to still use Sensei's Top to find Cunning Wish - Eladamri's Call and win. Maybe should have kept Liliana and Canonist to kill Emrakul and then try to beat down from there, but I wanted to kill Emrakul in combat. Game 3 I get turn 1 chalice, threaten turn 3 Marit Lage but he draws Show and Tell, Omni, Cunning Wish.
+Decay, K Command, Canonist, Thoughtseize
-Fires, 1 Goyf, Bog, Sylvan Library
He ended up boarding out all Counterbalances (plus I never saw them game 1), but I kept them in case he brought in something like Blood Moon. I should've brought in the crop rotations to nab Karakas.
Miracles 1-1: Goyfs eat swords, he gets a Balance+Top out. I land a bob, it makes it to the board despite desperate topping so I play another one. Terminus. He lands a Jace and keeps fate sealing me while I AD the balance and maintain Jace with a recurring Fire. Eventually draw nothing but lands while he gets out kill conditions and another counterbalance. Game 2 I get Bob, Liliana, Library on board while Goyfs and Knights eat swords. I still draw no other kill conditions but I'm able to burn him out from 11 with Punishing Fire. I make a few stupid plays but didn't really matter (draw 2 Groves with Library, play one, discard the other with Liliana +1). I get my Loams and Chalices extracted, which wins me the game since he should've extracted Punishing Fire instead of Chalice.
+Decay, Truths, Surgicals, Thoughtseize
-Bog, Moxes, ? maybe Karakas
Considering the swap of 2x GSZ, 1x DRS, 1x Teeg, I liked the 4 Goyfs. Having the extra combat density helped (or had the potential to help), and chalices were either boarded out, answered, or irrelevant for protecting against Decays.
What I would have liked mainboard:
* Cabal Pit (deathrite shaman, DnT). Barbarian Ring looks like a solid option too.
* Ghost Quarter.
* Volrath's Stronghold - Gives the deck recursion when you're loaming against mid-range/control, plus insurance against Decay. In this case, taking out Goyfs for stuff like Ballista, Pridemage becomes very interesting. Maybe put it in the side.
What I would have liked side:
* Garruk Relentless - Eh
* Krosan Grip?
* Choke. Not sure how relevant it would've been.
I do have a question...Game 2 against Miracles, I was able to get Loam + Tranquil Thicket going, but it didn't really seem to be relevant. I would dredge Loam, play it for irrelevant lands, Cycle Thicket to draw a card, next turn repeat. I was dredging over relevant spells like Decay and creatures. Technically I was drawing an extra card per turn, but with Miracles playing nothing but Basics recurring fetches and wastelands with Loam didn't seem to help at all. My board was Liliana and nothing relevant in hand. A Ghost Quarter would have definitely helped. I did manage to thin my deck substantially but the combo didn't really seem to improve my board state.
So if you have nothing else going on in game, is Loam + a single cycle land all that powerful to use when your lands in the yard aren't relevant? Or do you just draw off the top and hope for the best.
I think Maze can just be hid in the SB and brought in for games where you really need it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
Has you said, you were drawing an extra card per turn, so since you cannot control the top of your deck in that situation and assuming you have enough mana, that is always better than just draw one card per turn right?
I have a love hate relationship with some of the flex slots in the deck like DRS, 2nd Sylvan, Maze. I find that everytime I take them out I want them back in, and every time I have them in I dislike them. The joys of going into unknown metagames. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
Agreed here as well, Loam + Cycling lands is basically giving you a draw 4 to find what you are looking for. I use loam pretty sparingly in the matchup and will only aggressively loam if i'm trying to find punishing fires or groves trying to wasteland/gq lock my opponent if I see them fumbling on mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
in this case he was actually drawing 4 each turn while having the possibility of GQ or PF the opponent. Seems like a win-win to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
I actually had no GQ or Groves (had a fire in the yard), but I can see the prospect of digging for Grove while still drawing a fresh card.
Guess I'll keep it up.
Yeah, assuming you don't have a better use of your mana for that turn, I think the deck would prefer to dredge loam and cycle thicket to draw a card rather than just taking a natural draw and passing. Loaming does a few good things for you which other people have pointed out: 1) Can help you assemble DD/Stage without KotR; 2) Can find you a grove to go with your punishing fire, or a fire to go with the grove; 3) keep your hand stocked with chaff to pitch to Liliana so you can hang onto Decays and whatnot; 4) help you find a Ghost Quarter (I know you said you didn't play on Claymore but it sounds like you're probably considering playing one in the future). Having a lot of lands against Miracles is good because late in the game you need the ability to cast P.Fire multiple times in one sequence to kill Jace or slog through angles/monks, so loaming also ensures you're always making a land drop.
I know it sucks to dredge loam and watch 2 creatures and a decay hit the bin, but they're all just random draws off the top. In the long run, dredging and cycling to draw isn't gonna hurt your chances of drawing action.
I'm seeing some interesting points about the bug TNN deck, can someone share their experiences as to why this may be classified as a bad matchup?
It's becoming fairly popular in my local meta and I've got to say, it never feels worse than even - usually favored.
Their mana is pretty easy to hassle, their dorks all die to pfire and I've never felt that TNN is a huge problem for the deck.
I'm currently on 2 LOTV main, so I do have maindeck 'answers', though I've generally found that a KOTR or a scooze easily outclasses their idiots.
Also GQ main is straight fire.
I actually think the Reid Duke BUG list with TNN and Noble Hierarch is the easiest BUG matchup for this deck since they're more concentrated around 1cc cards (thus getting hurt more by Chalice) and they're more susceptible to Punishing Fire and sweepers out of the board. The problem I think is that TNN sometimes just gets you. With Liliana and enough sweepers we have more answers than the average deck. But without Brainstorm and other cantrips, sometimes they just slam a TNN and you can't find the right answer and you just die in a few turns. Just the risk we run when we decide not to play blue.
I've really been enjoying Boil out of the sideboard though as some extra oomph against BUG. Great against all flavors of greedy bug and Miracles, and it's a lot better than Choke I've found.
Duke's type of bug deck is tough IMO. They have decay to stop chalice, daze and mana dorks to accelerate and disrupt. Turn 3 jace is hard for us to deal with and we don't have that many answers outside of Liliana in the main to deal with TNN.
Now when we draw well and have the right answer in our hand, it's not that tough. I played the match up a ton after GP Louisville and that's why many of us at the time adopted more answers to TNN. Just an FYI, you need to play match ups to really know how they are and against decent players.
Edit
And I'm not actually saying anyone above hasn't played the match up and doesn't have experience in it. Just saying in general.
100% agree here. I hope I didn't imply that it was that bad in my previous posts here. I don't think that the matchup is bad persay but it's very draw dependent. They have a lot of cards that just don't do anything other than serve as Liliana fodder. I imagine the matchup is a lot better when you're playing something like a deluge main.Quote:
Originally Posted by NEELEY
In general it sounds like everyone has had different experiences with the BUG matchups, I find that my knights usually die on sight (RIP) and than my opponent slowly outvalues me and I lose. In think in most matchups where my knights live for atleast turn i'm heavily favored.
I dunno, I'd still rather play against Reid Duke BUG than Shardless, for example (as the previously most popular BUG midrange deck). Every BUG deck can decay your chalice, but at least when you stick a chalice on 1 against Duke BUG it severely limits the amount of cards they can play to further their gameplan. T1 chalice on the play is a beating for that deck whereas Shardless can basically ignore chalice on a lot of draws, or at least has the luxury of waiting to decay it until their hand is stocked with Brainstorms and DRS. T3 Jace is a beating against a lot of decks, but at least we have Punishing Fire as a maindeck way of keeping it in check, which is more than BUG decks or even Miracles G1 can say.
If I'm gonna have to grind through a BUG deck, I'd much rather do it against the one full of mana dorks and dazes (i.e., cards that are crappy topdecks late in the game) than the endless 2-1 value train of Shardless or the Tempo + wasteland approach of delver.
It's the total opposite in my experience. Shardless is so disrupted by punishing fire that I have made them draw there entire deck and not be able to kill me(multiple times). I use decay on goyf and pfire to lock the entire deck down. You can't play that way against a faster deck like Dukes list, tnn is just hard to deal without the right answers
I find it the same way. When I play shardless feels like all cards are super live while against Reid's list we need really specific cards(or the combo if you are playing it, i'm not)Quote:
Originally Posted by NEELEY
Usually against that mu I end up cutting the chalices for swords to plowshares since killing their 1st turn mana dork is super important to stop the t2 nemesis
The Reid Duke BUG deck plays a tempo + Wasteland approach, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephemeron
I know that. It's something it CAN do, if the draw lines up right. It's not as integral as it is to BUG Delver and it cant pull it off as consistently or as brutally as delver does. Fewer wastelands and dazes, likely no spell pierce, and no T1 play as punishing as delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I agree though that TNN is a pain for a deck that lacks blue to dig for answers as we're at the mercy of what the top of the deck gives us. TNN sucks for pretty much every fair deck not named Miracles though. At least we have 3 maindeck Liliana plus maybe 1 deluge these days and a grip of sideboard sweepers.
Hello guys, I'm a RG Lands player for a while and would like to try something new. Did an updated Primer is existing ?
What are the bad MU and the good one?