Library just seems so miserable
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Library just seems so miserable
Did X-3 at Baltimore, with losses to Enchantress, Goblins and Miracles. the first was a punt in game three by failing to play Gaddock Teeg, opting for Knight to beat him down harder, and him playing replenish (his only card in hand). The second was because I failed to have E. Plague in my board (I do now) and triple relic of progenitus is pretty okay against Goyf. The last was because I drew infinite lands.
Wins were against Burn, UWr Standstill, Dredge, Goblins, Mirror Elves and Zombardment. Did pretty well for my first time playing the Rock, I think.
The list:
4 Knight
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Deathrite
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
4 STP
3 Abrupt
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Sensei's Top
1 Diamond
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Bog
1 Maze
1 Karakas
Side:
2 Choke
2 Hymn
2 Teeg
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Extirpate
2 Deed
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Golgari Charm
1 Duress
Changes:
Main:
-1 Diamond, +1 Vindicate (I was dying for something to kill Humility, Moat and Jace all day, and the most diamond did all day was pump goyf.)
SB:
-2 Hymn, +2 Plague
-1 Zealous, +1 Golgari Charm (realized today that it blows up enchantments like Moat/Humility, and can regen your dudes through a Verdict/Deed. RTFC, right?)
-2 Timely, +2 Thalia (card was dead all day)
Coolest moment: wasting two fetches against miracles, with a decay in hand. He didn't want to lose his top.
Not-so-hot moment: Mulliganing an opening hand game one versus dredge with a savannah, bog, deathrite shaman and inquisition (I wanted the T1 discard).
All in all, though, a great day of magic. Love the deck.
Did you miss the Canopy? Also, perhaps if we cut Diamond we add a 24th land?
If we limit our toolbox to 3 cards instead of 4, does Canopy stay or Bog?
Vindicate or Liliana #3?
Hmm...
Also, hi JC
Library is better than Top some of the time. I would say most of the time, I want Sylvan Library rather than Top, since I can actually draw the extra cards that I end up seeing.
-Matt
I feel like I may be adjusting me board as well:
3 Hymn
2 Teeg
3 Surgical
2 Deed
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Golgari Charm
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Garruk Relentless
I still feel like I want Abrupt Decay #4, but cutting something for it may be a challenge.
-Matt
Personally, I love Bog, since the big decks like Threshold and/or having a full yard. Canopy has always been an iffy card for me in the decks I have ran it in; sometimes the extra draw is the nuts, other times you just draw extra lands. Admittedly, Top/Library help that draw be relevant, but between fetches and Bob, I don't feel good pinging myself to make mana without a source of solid lifegain in the main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyvith
If I added the 24th land, it'd probably be a basic plains.
I like 3 liliana and a vindicate, actually. Lilly's great at disrupting aggro and control simultaneously, and with Bob out, you never worry about losing relevant cards. She also defuses a bog in your hand if you want to preserve both yards (against, say, goblins). Vindicate is a catch-all, though Maelstrom Pule is probably just better for the multiple hits. I like the idea of a 5th wasteland effect, though, and I think Vindicate will hit what you want it to 80% of the time.
On the note of library: I think it depends on the build you're running. A more Maverick-style deck like yours, Matt, needs the mana for Zenith, Tracker, etc. so leaving mana up to spin isn't really an option. I do like how you can dig deeper with Library and Top, though. I prefer the 3 tops since they allow more instant-speed effects.
Regardless, though, I think so long as you're running some kind of draw-correction, Junk will excel.
Also, hey Greg!
Mirri's Guile?Quote:
On the note of library: I think it depends on the build you're running. A more Maverick-style deck like yours, Matt, needs the mana for Zenith, Tracker, etc. so leaving mana up to spin isn't really an option.
hello, everyone
dont laugh at me. but i have a very stupid questions. i believe that you answered it thousands of time. but can you answer it one more time, plz
i cant understand an interaction of shaman and knight. ok. i unserstand, that if an opponent has lands in grave, we use shaman as a bird. but! if we have only our lands in grave. how can we use shaman, thinking about big knight as a main win condition? i just cant understand. i tried different list of shaman_rock, but most of all i just had knights 4/4 or somehing like it after rapid beginning with a lot of removal and discard
i played dark horizons for years(a lot of discard and removal, 4 tarmo, 4 knights, 4 conf). the plan was very simple. discard all opponents remoavl and threats and killing by great knight with 2 attacks.
what is a plan now? with active shaman(and may be opponent's shaman) we can use knight to find wastelands and utilities. and thats all?
plz, find a minute to answer my question. it's very important for me
Have you tried a 4/3 split of Decay / StP?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I know common practices tell us to play 3/4 the other way, but I've been playing the 4/3 and haven't been really missing the 4th StP. There's just so many more things AD is better against that StP doesn't handle (CB, RIP, Jitte, tempo blue decks, etc.).
Just think about your question for a moment. Do you always have to use Shaman for mana? It's always a judgement call--sometimes the tempo is nice, other times you may want the lands for damage.
Against most Legacy decks these days, your opponent will typically have a land or two to eat. Since you play Wastelands, you can also always Wasteland your opponent's lands then eat them with the Shaman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxmatii
Yes, there is a poor interaction with your own knights when you're eating your own lands, but Knights can grow at +2 per turn (using Knight to get a fetch land or Wasteland) so even if you had to eat a few of your own lands, Knights typically can grow themselves quickly. As long as you can have Knights come down as 4/4's still (to avoid Lightning Bolts), you should still be ok.
Here's the thing about Deathrite (or what I've gathered from playing him, anyway): he's only a mana dork in the early game. Maverick uses noble hierach because she ramps, yes, but that's only relevant for a few turns. Once you hit the mid-game and stabilize your manabase, mana dorks are basically useful for overextending into a board wipe. Noble is useful for her exalted; that's why Mavericks runs her over BoP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxmatii
Deathrite, similarly, is only ramp for a turn or two. After that, he becomes a lifegain source and damage source, while still being able to block weenies and come out on top. I rarely had to use him on my own lands, and when I did Knight was already 10/10 or more. The card is more than what it seems, and I'd say I've won considerable more games because of him than goyf, knight or Bob--because the other three demand so much removal from your opponent.
In short, run 4. I cannot see a reason not to.
@babrbed blightning
why the miser vindicate? I find the pulse is more useful today because it is a W mana less to cast (we already need b ang g in most other spells, so we'll never get stuck with screwed colors) and has the multi target bonus (when relevant).
@all
I couldn't test a lot, but I'm making room for 2 lingering souls on the sideboard (mainly to deal with the grindy bug midrange match). And since I'm at it, I'll replace 1 duress from the board for a cabal therapy.
Вы правы. Рыцарь является главным условием победы, но обычно только удалить одну или две земли от собственного кладбища, так как вы не используете маны способности часто в игре. Вы используете только он, может быть, максимум четыре раза всего, и надеюсь, что две или три из них могут быть кладбище оппонента. Большинство других раз, когда вы используете его для слива жизни или удалить существ.Quote:
hello, everyone
dont laugh at me. but i have a very stupid questions. i believe that you answered it thousands of time. but can you answer it one more time, plz
i cant understand an interaction of shaman and knight. ok. i unserstand, that if an opponent has lands in grave, we use shaman as a bird. but! if we have only our lands in grave. how can we use shaman, thinking about big knight as a main win condition? i just cant understand. i tried different list of shaman_rock, but most of all i just had knights 4/4 or somehing like it after rapid beginning with a lot of removal and discard
You are correct. Knight is the main win condition, but you usually only remove one or two lands from your own graveyard, since you do not use the mana ability often in the game. You are only using it maybe a maximum of four times total, so hopefully two or three of those can be your opponent's graveyard. Most of the other time you are using him to drain life or remove creatures.
План по сути то же самое, но шаман дать вам немного больше гибкости и основной палубе ненависть против других палубах. Он очень хорошо.Quote:
i played dark horizons for years(a lot of discard and removal, 4 tarmo, 4 knights, 4 conf). the plan was very simple. discard all opponents remoavl and threats and killing by great knight with 2 attacks.
The plan is essentially the same, but the Shaman give you a bit more versatility and main deck hate against other decks. He's very good.
Вы по-прежнему атакует рыцарь, однако он может быть одним мощности меньше, чем раньше. С Шаман, это менее мощные атаки компенсируется но жизнь слива способности, которые не используют боевые шаг, и это более полезно в ситуациях, существо стойло.Quote:
what is a plan now? with active shaman(and may be opponent's shaman) we can use knight to find wastelands and utilities. and thats all?
You are still attacking with Knight, but he might be one power smaller than before. With Shaman, this less powerful attack is compensated but the life draining ability that does not use the combat step, and is more useful in creature stall situations.
Спасибо.
-Matt
Mostly nostalgia on my part--Vindicate is probably one of my favorite cards of all time. My issue with pulse is friendly fire and that is cannot hit lands (which I think is relevant.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sughayyer
@Barbed
if you stopped at friendly fire I would say it's really rare (and also it's a 1-of pulse). But why did you have to say that thing about lands? We'd talk about land destruction if you ran 4 vindicates (and/or sinkholes and samallpoxen) but as 1-of?
Anyway, people also don't understand a lot of my decisions while building, so cheers! Good luck for all of us! :)
@Matt
my hero, I tried to learn Russian a long time ago :D (I had a student who was Russian)
I'll be piloting this in two weeks. The more I think about it, the more content I am with this setup.
24 Land Junk
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savanah
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
SB:
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Duress
1 Darkblast
2 Engineered Plague
2 Thalia
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Abrupt Decay
So when is Sdematt's article coming out? I'm kind of assuming it will be mentioned and linked in this thread.
I still think Liliana is crazy good so I look forward to reading why she is bad and deathrite deserves 3-4 slots. I have played a ton with both cards now and am pretty certain I like my setup. Liliana + Lingering Souls is just too much card advantage.
I've just finished editing it for spelling errors, content, etc.
Since you guys are my peeps, I'll release a tiny bit to hold you over until later in the week when it gets released.
Article starts below this point.
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Junk is, by its very nature, a mid-range deck that has components of aggro and control. Junk’s game plan is to control board with an overwhelming amount of removal and to protect its threats pre-emptively using discard spells. Then, once the coast is clear, Junk drops big, efficient threats that tend to outclass the other creatures on the board, while still maintaining that element of board control. Junk isn’t like RUG in the sense that you hopefully ride one creature to victory. Junk usually likes to lay out a few larger threats and protect them without the use of counterspells. Junk isn’t playing to beat the opponent in the first four turns, and it isn’t looking to go into the very long game where the true control deck shines. Junk is most comfortable in the mid-game, where the early disruption leads to mid-game advantage by closing the life point gap with those efficient threats. But, a question still remains: why should one play Junk? What are some of the advantages of playing Junk in the current Legacy metagame?
The Abrupt Decay of “Only Blue can Win”
The answers to these questions lie in two recent additions to the Junk arsenal from Return to Ravnice: Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman. Junk has always had an issue of being a deck full of answers that wins when it gets the correct answer for the question being asked of it; if it didn’t, it died pretty quickly. You had little to no manipulation or card selection to work your way through your deck like Blue did with Brainstorm and Ponder. Abrupt Decay solves the former question by essentially being an answer to everything. Not only is it an answer, it is an answer that can’t be countered. Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, and Swords to Plowshares are all powerful cards, but running them headlong into Force of Will, Spell Pierce, Daze, Counterspell, or an active Counterbalance at a pivotal moment doesn’t help you one bit. Your answer might trump that Delver that’s been slowly eating away at your life total, but your attempts to turn it into a farmer may be lost if you don’t have the right tools in your kit. There’s a specific tool for every job, and Abrupt Decay turns out to be a really great all-in-one tool that never disappoints. Abrupt Decay, beyond being a limited Vindicate, is also uncounterable. This is a point in Junk’s favour regarding the RUG Delver matchup, as easily found counterspells can usually counter key removal plays at critical points in the game. Abrupt Decay is a solution to a problem as soon as you draw it.
Prior to Abrupt Decay, when playing against UWx Miracles, it could be easy to get locked out by Counterbalance due to a suite of converted mana costs centered around zero through two. Recently, with new additions to the deck, a new Counterbalance curve stretching from zero to five has been implemented. More importantly, the curve now has a nonzero amount of three drops (between four and six). This is important to locking out your Vindicates and Knights of the Reliquary. By smashing Counterbalance with Abrupt Decay, Junk is more able to lay out efficient threats that pose a real danger of ending the game in quick succession. There isn’t as much of a situation like with Maverick where all your small critters need to be present on the board in numbers to be a threat – which is where Miracles wants to be, especially with Terminus and Engineered Explosives. A single threat can end the game in four turns or less, making them either waste a Terminus or find removal or a threat to outclass you, like Entreat the Angels or Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
To be continued...
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-Matt
thks everybody! it was very interesting for me to read your answers. i will think a lot and try to look to this deck from another angle
@Matt
Nice russian (= great pleasure to see here native letters!
прекрасный русский (= большое удовольствие видеть здесь родные буквы!