[Deck] Goblins

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Look up Cedric Phillips' Goblins list from the SCG invitational. He made top 16 (maybe even top 10) so the list should be easy to find. His list ran Instigators instead of Piledrivers, so you'll save money there, and only 2 Ports if I recall. He did have a B splash for Weirding, so if getting your hands on a few Badlands/fetchlands is a problem you can always make it MonoR and just replace those Weirdings with a few pieces of R spot removal. You will still need 4 Wastelands though if you plan on being any sort of competitive. But Cedric's list is a great starting point for someone who wants to play Goblins but not invest in Piledrivers.

#2- Goblins is generally awful against OmniTell, ANT, TES, Belcher, anything that goes off T2.
#3- Dredge is rough but can be beated G1 if they have a slow start and you have Lackey. G2/3 are really winnable if you have a hoser in your starting hand like Leyline, or strong, cheap, fast GY hate like Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction, Tormod's Crypt and creatures/a clock to go along with it.

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Thanks.

So I assume Pyroblast & Red Elemental Blast are the choice weapons against combo running blue.
Considering blue is sooooo bloody common in Legacy - is 8 in the SB too many?

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

C'omon, we shouldn't be making statemants like that anymore. You know it better.
Wasteland is a great awesome card? Yes it is. NEEDED for ANY SORT of competitive play? Well, J. Sawyer Lucy, who Top'8ed GP Atlanta this year disagree with you.
Nothing is set on stone.

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I don't think there's been any MonoR lists without wasteland that have done well though. The Sawyer Lucy deck ran 3 Thalia as mana disruption. Different card choice, same strategic concept. So I'm going to stand by my guns and say that you NEED Wasteland if you want a MonoR goblin deck that's any sort of competitive.

https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/1...wO9jjCqZA2.jpg

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

C'omon, we shouldn't be making statemants like that anymore. You know it better.
Wasteland is a great awesome card? Yes it is. NEEDED for ANY SORT of competitive play? Well, J. Sawyer Lucy, who Top'8ed GP Atlanta this year disagree with you.
Nothing is set on stone.

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I had to read this three times. I think that it is a reasonable statement to make to say that it's 'correct' to run wasteland in goblins.

Does that mean that a suboptimal deck can NEVER experience success? Of course not.

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Originally Posted by slave

Thanks.

So I assume Pyroblast & Red Elemental Blast are the choice weapons against combo running blue.
Considering blue is sooooo bloody common in Legacy - is 8 in the SB too many?

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Yes it is. You can't sideboard too many cards vs any particular strategy because goblins is such a linear deck that you dilute the deck's strength too much. Plus it leaves you without sideboard space for other matchups.

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Originally Posted by slave

Thanks.

So I assume Pyroblast & Red Elemental Blast are the choice weapons against combo running blue.
Considering blue is sooooo bloody common in Legacy - is 8 in the SB too many?

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It really depends on what you mean by combo decks running blue, blasts are fine but there are other higher impact cards you may want to run (chalice, mindbreak trap vs Storm etc)

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

@feline
Awesome job. Thank you. While I agree that you probably had the skill advantage each MU it's still helpful to hear which MUs were good, bad, or even, because it gives us a direction to go in with side boarding.
OmniTell is the one that's going to be a pain. There are multiple ways for us to attack it, but no MD blue for us is going to leave us a big underdog every G1. We really need t1 Lackey t2 Waste/port to have a chance. What I'm wondering about is the SB against it. Angel of Despair seems like a fair answer, as does O Ring. Ring actually seems a little stronger since it can be hardcast and sorta fills the How Do I Deal Wth Moat slot. O Ring also makes sense since splashing W for Thalia and Karakas seems legit now.

What are you all siding for OmniShow these days?

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I am not convinced about Thalia so far, since she is white, not a goblin and a legend (concerning all the Karakas running around, including goblin lists), although she's got something and people have had success with her.
Nevertheless I was wondering if it is possible to play a "usual" list with 22 lands (4 Waste, 4 Mountain, 4 Cavern, 6 Fetches, 2 Ports and 2 Duals) with only one Taiga and one Plateau? I'd play TSH MD and 2 Grips as well as 2 O-rings SB. That should be good for Omniscience, shouldn't it?
The only question is if it is worth splashing white for O-rings and if we need them in any other MU. Cheating o-rings into play by S'n'T does not need a splash and Angel of Despair is fine...

I thought about the same thing earlier today. angel of despair only helps us against omni tell. oblivion ring can fight moat, e plague etc so it is a natural fit for the miracle matchup. it is also good to pack 2 grips and 2 rings against blade control. but in both matchups the ring is not needed as 3 Grips are better than 2 rings and 2 grips as the latter are nearly unanswerable. against all other matchups oblivion ring is not needed as we get rid of creatures with Pyrokinesis, fight artifacts and hate enchantments with grip and TSH and combo with chalice/Reb. so oblivion ring only shines vs omni tell and fights for the same sideboard spot with Krosan grip the other times. I don't think it is a good idea to make your mana base more fragile (wastelands, stifles) and inconsistent (what if u can't fetch plateau and taiga in cases u have TSH and Ring on hand?).

angel of despair is tons better than ring as it gives a clock that a omni tell player cannot answer. so u can relax and mulligan to even 4-3 an do nothing and wait with your angel and sneak it into play and win with it :-:-) but taking mulligan for oblivion ring does not mean auto win as a bad had will not kill the omni tell player even if you sneak oblivion ring. he gets time to recover and can beat your low mana/no creature starting hands :-)

I finally got a playset of cavern of souls for my mono red chieftain build with tarfires. i am finding that playing 4 caverns is too many as i am opening myself up to wastelands and also getting stuck with tarfires i can't cast, and tarfires are essential for my strategy of quick removal and extra pressure and damage.
So, I am finding 2 cavern of souls to be a safer number to play. I may try 3 but it feels wrong. How many cavern of souls is everyone else finding optimal? 2, 3 or 4?

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Originally Posted by orcanmail

I finally got a playset of cavern of souls for my mono red chieftain build with tarfires. i am finding that playing 4 caverns is too many as i am opening myself up to wastelands and also getting stuck with tarfires i can't cast, and tarfires are essential for my strategy of quick removal and extra pressure and damage.
So, I am finding 2 cavern of souls to be a safer number to play. I may try 3 but it feels wrong. How many cavern of souls is everyone else finding optimal? 2, 3 or 4?

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Never leave the house without 4. Never.

Let me explain more, I only run 20 lands, plus 4 tarfires and 4 gempalms. I get away withit due to a lower than normal mana curve for goblins and also by having 2 warren instigators for extra lackey effects.

So in my deck list my mana was 16 mountains and 4 wastelands. It's now 14 mountains, 4 wastelands and 2 caverns. i can't afford to open myself too much up to opponents wastelands, and i also can't shut off my tarfires and gempalms which are my main removal because i only draw caverns and wastelands.

In my build 4 caverns are too many, I've come to this conclusion through play testing.

So why do you say never leave home without 4 caverns, please explain your precise reasoning, i'd very much appreciate it.

Ok I assumed you have a Standard decklist. Can you Play with 21 lands and 3 caverns? Is there a Card you can cut?

I only know that caverns has brought goblins back to the Decks to Beat section. Caverns, vial and lackey can cheat uncounterable goblins in Play. But as u Play WI u can probably Play with less caverns. 2 is a too low number as you need to draw it regularly. 3 would be great but with only 20 lands it is perhaps too much.. Dunno, I would go with the 21 land route :-)

When I play mono-red I use 22 lands.
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Mountains

I do not see a situation where I would ever consider cutting any Caverns. Currently it is because 5 of the 7 Decks to Beat play Force of Will as well as other counters. Game 1 against an unknown opponent many players will keep a hand JUST BECAUSE it contains FoW. Caverns mades that a bad hand to keep, but they are stuck with it giving you an advantage. When you've had your game-breaking Goblin Matron countered enough times you'll see the importance of Caverns.

You may want to look at Pyrokinesis as an alternative to Tarfire. I wouldn't swap 4 for 4, but they serve a similar purpose...

Regarding our Show and Tell matchup... has everyone seen this thread?
Confusion in the Ranks.
It seems like if there is a deck that would use this against S+T, it'd be Goblins. I hate the idea of dedicating sideboard space to just one matchup but if it's a bad matchup and it blows them out then I hate the idea less...

Going back to an older discussion...
ScatmanX - You had indicated your intention to test Rakdos Charm.
I would be interested in hearing how those tests went. Was it a 4 of? Was it main deck? Was it better than other graveyard/artifact hate? Did you ever use the last option to your advantage (with the Lackey trick)?

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

When I play mono-red I use 22 lands.
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Mountain

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haven't you ever had problem with R mana for Gempalm or other stuff? In my head 10 is just so few...

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

I do not see a situation where I would ever consider cutting any Caverns. Currently it is because 5 of the 7 Decks to Beat play Force of Will as well as other counters. Game 1 against an unknown opponent many players will keep a hand JUST BECAUSE it contains FoW. Caverns mades that a bad hand to keep, but they are stuck with it giving you an advantage. When you've had your game-breaking Goblin Matron countered enough times you'll see the importance of Caverns.

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This is absolute true. Caverns is just backbreaking against too many decks to be played less than a 4off nowadays.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

You may want to look at Pyrokinesis as an alternative to Tarfire. I wouldn't swap 4 for 4, but they serve a similar purpose...

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This suggestion is good. Try it out. Also, clearing SB space when bringing Kinesis to MD is great.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Regarding our Show and Tell matchup... has everyone seen this thread?
Confusion in the Ranks.
It seems like if there is a deck that would use this against S+T, it'd be Goblins. I hate the idea of dedicating sideboard space to just one matchup but if it's a bad matchup and it blows them out then I hate the idea less...

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Depends if you feel that it or Angel of Dispair have more style points=]

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Going back to an older discussion...
ScatmanX - You had indicated your intention to test Rakdos Charm.
I would be interested in hearing how those tests went. Was it a 4 of? Was it main deck? Was it better than other graveyard/artifact hate? Did you ever use the last option to your advantage (with the Lackey trick)?

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- I really liked it. It was very rarely a dead card, usually being useful, and sometimes the surprise just win you the game.
- I was and am testing it 3 on the MD.
- No, it is not the best GY hate card that is out there, but being an instant helps. You can't count solely on it to beat GY strategy decks. Against artifacts its way better.
- I used the Lackey thing lots of times. Tell me one thing: How many times do you cast a T1 Lackey, pass, your opponent plays a land, pass, you play a land, attack, THEN he cast STP? Well, if someone decides to do this now, they can be facing a SGC or Krenko in response. Also, if Lackey would connect, Charm makes it "connects" twice. There have also been situations mid game, when I had useless Charm and drew the Lackey, so I could chump + get a Ringleader into play. And there are also times when your T1 Lackey is facing a Kird Ape, a Stoneforge Mystic, or even a Relicary on T2...

The up to date list is as follows. There was some concession on the manabase, since getting RB for non-goblins spells is not the easiest thing to do now with Caverns.
(still not optimal, of course, but have been liking it)

4 Cavern of Souls
2 Wasteland
8 Fetchland
4 Mountain
4 Badlands

4 Frasco do Éter
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief

4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Sharpshooter

2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko

2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Warmarchall

3 Rakdos Charm

SB:
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Earwig Squad

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Midbreak Trap / REB

4 Pyrokinesis

2 Tormord's Crypt

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haven't you ever had problem with R mana for Gempalm or other stuff? In my head 10 is just so few...

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I think most of us who plays mono-red plays with:
10 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Skirk Prospector

This land setup, with Skirk Prospector, has been fantastic. Very rarely do I have issues not finding a pure red source for Gempalm or SGC. However, it can hard to cast spells with RR cost early, which is why I dropped Sulfuric Vortex from my sideboard. Having 11 red sources seems to be right. 11 is usually the magic number I look for when splashing. Like if I am splashing green for Tin Street Hooligan, I will have 4 CoS, 6 Fetchlands, and a Taiga. If I am splashing black for Warren Weirding, I will have 3 Badlands and 8 Fetchlands,

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You may want to look at Pyrokinesis as an alternative to Tarfire. I wouldn't swap 4 for 4, but they serve a similar purpose...

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Not really. Pyrokinesis is only good when you can kill 2+ creatures for card advantage, since you have to give up a card. There are some MU's where that is not the case. Tarfire is something you can fetch with Matron, and kill a creature in a tight situation. To be honest, orcanmail, I suggest you playing 3 Lightning Bolts and 1 Tarfire. It worked for me when I was heavy on removal. Lightning Bolt is really good for the cost, and you can always fetch for Tarfire when you need it.

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Regarding our Show and Tell matchup... has everyone seen this thread?
Confusion in the Ranks.
It seems like if there is a deck that would use this against S+T, it'd be Goblins. I hate the idea of dedicating sideboard space to just one matchup but if it's a bad matchup and it blows them out then I hate the idea less...

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Believe me, as a Norin player, the idea of using Confusion in the Ranks outside of EDH makes me giddy. However, I was told that Confusion in the Ranks does not work on Omniscience because both enchantments comes down at the same time, basically nullifying each other, so the S&T player can still go for the Burning Wish combo.

I use Prospector and he has helped increase the availability of red a relevant number of times for me. I certainly have had a few games where finding red was a concern, but it hasn't happened enough for me to reconsider my land count.

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Originally Posted by L10

I was told that Confusion in the Ranks does not work on Omniscience because both enchantments comes down at the same time, basically nullifying each other, so the S&T player can still go for the Burning Wish combo.

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Nullify? How so?
My understanding is that your opponent plays Show and Tell. You put Confusion in the Ranks on the table face down. They do the same with Omniscience. You both reveal and Confusion triggers because there is a valid target. Your opponent gets Confusion and you can play spells without paying mana...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong!

Thanks for the response Scatman. I'm getting my list of RTR cards to buy together =)
It's also worth pointing out that you can get a playset of Confusion for the cost of a single Angel.

1. Player A casts Show and Tell
2. Both players put cards face down
3. Flip cards revealing Confusion and Omniscience
3. Confusion triggers twice
4. Player A chooses Confusion, Player B chooses Omniscience
5. We both trade cards from the first trigger
6. We both trade card again from the second trigger

If I am wrong, please correct me. The idea of playing Confusion in the Ranks in legacy brings me joy. :D

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I'm getting my list of RTR cards to buy together =)

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Electrickery has been fantastic for me after some testing against Maverick, DnT, and Elves. It is probably not the best card in the current meta, but I would have at least three in my binder when the meta changes. I am debating with my friends whether or not I should replace my 3 Pyrokinesis for 3 Electrickery in my SB, or do a 2/2 split.

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I used the Lackey thing lots of times. Tell me one thing: How many times do you cast a T1 Lackey, pass, your opponent plays a land, pass, you play a land, attack, THEN he cast STP? Well, if someone decides to do this now, they can be facing a SGC or Krenko in response. Also, if Lackey would connect, Charm makes it "connects" twice. There have also been situations mid game, when I had useless Charm and drew the Lackey, so I could chump + get a Ringleader into play. And there are also times when your T1 Lackey is facing a Kird Ape, a Stoneforge Mystic, or even a Relicary on T2...

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I just realized that Goblin Lackey does not have to deal combat damage to cheat in creatures. Thanks for pointing that out! I really have to try Rakdos Charm now. It seems really good in the current meta.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Regarding our Show and Tell matchup... has everyone seen this thread?
Confusion in the Ranks.
It seems like if there is a deck that would use this against S+T, it'd be Goblins. I hate the idea of dedicating sideboard space to just one matchup but if it's a bad matchup and it blows them out then I hate the idea less...

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Maybe I should post this somewhere else but I'll give it a shot...

In my understanding, Confusion in the Ranks works as stated above. Question is, what happens when I aether Vial Stingscouger with Emrakul as the sole creature in the opponents side and CitR is in play.

You Vial Stingscourger in and (assuming CitR is still under your controll) both abilities, of CitR & Stingscourger will trigger.
You get to order them the way you like and then both will resolve.

So to summarize:
-You Vial in.
-You bounce
-You would exchange controll but can't anymore.

Or if you order them the other way around:
-You Vial in.
-You exchange controll.
-You bounce Emrakul (this should work since Stingscourger's ability only checks for the controller when it triggers, not as it's resolve.)

If you don't controll CitR anymore, you can't stack the triggers your way since you don't controll both anymore.
This would let to first triggering Stingscourger, then CitR which resolves first; the second example.

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Originally Posted by L10

5. We both trade cards from the first trigger
6. We both trade card again from the second trigger

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I'm positively sure that step 6 will NOT occure. The ability from second trigger will fizzle because it will have illegal target (the target will no longer be in the possession of another player). Both players just exchange their enchantments.

Oh my God, quit talking about that horrible card before my brain starts to bleed.