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I think being able to board up to 4 Collective brutality can make a difference vs. Burn, but it's still not favorable. I'm currently on Brutality plus Trinisphere vs. them, but I haven't got in much testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I agree with you re: Ratchet Bomb. I run 2 in the main. It is occasionally dead though. I take them out vs. Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Reanimator, TinFins, etc. It has tons of random utility vs. most decks though.
Yes, Brutality is a great tool against Burn. Probably still not enough, but yes, very good.Quote:
Originally Posted by ntropy
Against Sneak/Show, on the draw, T1 Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Ratchet Bomb, destroy Lotus Petal with Bomb. BOOM. All the value. That's a niche case, and honestly still not very good. With the prevalence of discard, which is very good against Sneak/Show and Omnittell, you should be alright with 2x dead cards in the main. Against reanimator you have to lean on your sideboard or maindeck something that has utility outside of pure grave hate, like Surgical Extraction (maindeckable in a combo-heavy metagame.) Reanimator can actually go alright if you can nab reanimate spells with discard (Hymn is too risky, Liliana OTV only for the sacrifice ability.)
Many of those faults, including a weakness to burn, has made me really want to get away from Pox and play something with Deathrite Shaman. I started with Shaman in Loam Pox, he was just *that good*, even in a smallpox deck. Then I dropped smallpox for Dark Confidant, then I sped the deck up with more tutors for more Dark Depths, then Thespian's Stage was printed and Turbo Depths became the best Marit Lage deck. Then it became a known quantity and people started experimenting with a grindier version of TD with DRS/Bob/maindeck Abrupt Decay and Sylvan Library. I traded into a Bayou, and I was hooked.
If I were to play Pox in a local metagame I would try desperately to buy into a set of Helm of Obedience for the sideboard. I really think it's the best way to fight the bad matchups like Burn. You can play your pox plan and still blast a quick combo with Leyline/Helm enabled by Dark Ritual.
Burn can be brutal but definitely not the worst matchup. I usually leave in my 2 Thoughtseize MD. Thoughtsies is horrible when stripping Bolts but still 33% better than being Bolted. Burn also totes Sulfuric Vortex and Pyrostatic Pillar. Both of which we can't deal with once they hit the board.
I drop 2-3 Wastelands and bring in 2-3 Surgical effects. Wastelands don't hit anything and Surgical strips the 4+ damage spells like Fireblast, Firecraft and PoP.
Nethervoid is a pretty solid non-budget answer. You know- if you got it like that.
The MVP as we all know is the Collective Brutality. The life is great but this is definitely an all-modes-relevant matchup. Eat your opponent, a Golin Guide and the hand.
http://www.mtgpics.com/card?ref=dom247
Cabal Stronghold
tap, add 1
3, tap: add B equal to basic swamps you control
Interesting land, surprised it's at rare actually. It's easy to activate in Pox (especially if your stuck on Factory/Wasteland and need a 2nd black mana.) It's inefficient, but potentially a Cabal Coffers for modern anyways. Not sure it's actually good for Pox, and certainly not as exciting as the new Karn (which rewards maindeck Crucible of Worlds and Ratchet Bomb better and gives CA.)
Would Rite of Belzenlok find a home in Pox? You get 4 blockers/sacrifice fodder. Then you get a 6/6 flying trampling finisher? I think it may be worth a look.
Interesting idea with maindeck Bitterblossom! This helps to get free slots in the board and will improve preboard control-matchups. I wonder if you play Night of Souls' Betrayal and or Toxic Deluge along with 4 Bb? My plan is to beat fair decks g1 so the sweepers do a great job there. Do you have problems with this massive dissynergy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Burn is a lousy but by no means unwinable matchup. We need great draws but that's ok for me.
Ratchet Bomb sounds promising, which cards do you cut for it? Discard or removal?
Those Saga-cards look stylish. Nevertheless I think that the powerlevel is average at best. As a different finisher Liliana, the Last Hope might be a thing. On paper this card looks versatile (removal and finisher). Anybody tried her?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittplayer
I end up cutting some number of threats, because BB is so efficient. I don't use night of souls betrayal. While it's a blowout sometimes it can often slow you down too. As you say, night is a no-no with BB. I opt for deluge (which wipes, but BB catches up again) and Engineered Plague in the sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by EtwasSteIne
Generally I feel pox enough discard that maindeck ratchet bomb helps with problematic permanents. Six targeted discard with 4 hymns, some number of collective brutality, and liliana makes for a brutal discard suite. The spot that usually suffers is removal because we lean on smallpox and liliana too much. Bomb and fatal push, maybe a dismember or deluge main, go a long ways.
I think I have a 4 BB list posted about a page back with bomb main.
Any consideration for Heart of Kiran as a win con?
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How many Bitterblossom do you feel comfortable to have in play at the same time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Sure, if you can guarantee that you will have a planeswalker in play after casting Heart of Kiran.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
Matchup dependant. Against miracles for instance I'll take as many as I can resolve. After 2 turns it snowballs quickly and I end up doing exponentially more damage before they can catch up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
For most matchups 1 is fine, 2 max. But that's what brutality and liliana are for, to discard extra copies (or keep one on reserve if they kill it.)
Follow up question;Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Is it worth putting BB in play if you got not void or Sphere on the table?
Or rather, what is the value in different matches?
Definitely. It works around all pox effects by being an enchantment, and it takes no mana investment beyond playing it. The dream is t2 bb, t3 liliana. It protects her and you can he hellbent and still applying pressure. Your wastelands and everything else get better because you don't need mana for anything. Think nether spirit getting +1/+1 every turn, but divided among a bunch of bodies. It also has incredible synergy with cabal therapy (which you know I love).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Thoughts on the last few pages
- Brutality is probably the best card vs Burn
- Spinning Darkness is also very good if your metagame is so full of Burn that you can fit x4 Brutality and still want more cards vs the matchup
- Otherwise the other way to beat Burn is to play more cheap threats so you can kill them before they have time to topdeck more burnspells (8 Rack is the best but if you aren't on that build then boarding in all copies of whatever Tombstalker effect you have is also advisable)
- The new Coffers is rubbish
1. Doesn't work with Urborg
2. Costs 3 lands and itself to activate so for it to be better than a Basic Swamp you need 5 other Basic Swamps
3. If you have 6 lands in play already what the fuck do you need the extra mana for
- Heart of Kiran is rubbish. If you have anything to crew it with you could just be attacking with that creature instead. Crewing it by removing a counter from Liliana is also bad because the threat of Lili ultimate is an important part of the gameplan, as is keeping Liliana on a high loyalty so you can reliably deal with the opponent's topdecked creatures
- The Saga that makes a 6/6 token is interesting and it's nice that it's a big creature that protects itself from your own Smallpox to some extent, but it's so slow to have a creature that costs 4 mana and basically has suspend 3 (the Demon comes in 2 turns but doesn't have haste)
- Bitterblossom is probably good but idk if it's a maindeck card
This is crap, but perhaps storm will run it.
Final Parting
3BB
Sorcery
Search your library for two cards. Put one into your hand and the other into your graveyard. Then shuffle your library.
"Sleep now, brother. This is the one gift I can give you"
Just back from the weekly - had a small one today, but managed to go 2-1. Beat UR Delver and Grixis Delver 2-0, lost to Esper Blade. Managed to steal a game off them forgetting tabernacle (feels bad but I'll take it), but planeswalkers outclassed me the other two. The list hasn't changed much but hey:
Pox SB 4 Lilliana of the Veil 4 Smallpox 4 Mishra's Factory 4 Leyline of the Void 1 Liliana, the Last Hope 4 Inquisition of Kozilek 4 Wasteland 2 Bitterblossom 3 Innocent Blood 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth 2 Pithing Needle 2 Necropolis Fiend 2 Hymn to Tourach 1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 2 Lost Legacy 2 Toxic Deluge 1 Cabal Pit 2 Collective Brutality 2 Cursed Scroll 1 Beseech the Queen 1 Bojuka Bog 2 Ratchet Bomb 1 Ensnaring Bridge 1 Spawning Pool 1 Extirpate 1 Crucible of Worlds 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal 1 Maze of Ith 1 Nether Void 10 Swamp 3 Dark Ritual 1 Chains of Mephistopheles 1 Fatal Push
Someone asked me why there were Collective Brutalities in my board - tbh I'm not sure. They were there against Burn and I bring them in against creature heavy decks (sometimes side them in for Hymns, other times whatever else). I think I might cut them for more Needles though. Maybe even sorcerous spyglass - the extra mana isn't a huge deal and seeing their hand is nice.
With this bit of extra testing I feel like I can say this now - Necropolis Fiend is an absolute HOUSE. He carried me all four of those games against Delver. They have virtually no answer to him if you don't give them the block + bolt opportunity. And you don't even need to block since he'll just pick off all their guys anyway. I killed many delvers, many pyromancers, even a few shamans and blocked an angler to kill it with his ability. I think in a prison pox list he's just head and shoulders above Tombstalker; in those matches Tombstalker would have traded with Delver+Bolt and that's that. Fiend, for one more mana, does exactly what the deck wants, which is that he controls the board. They can't attack into him comfortably, and if they don't attack he'll kill their stuff. He's different than Tomby in that he's not really just for closing fast, I often found myself just holding him back instead of trying to race. I did struggle to fill the yard fast enough, and it was sometimes painful to try and get him enough fuel to really use him, but it wasn't a huge problem. Even without fuel he's a 4/5 flier that can kill everything but an angler in a fight. Sadly, dies to swords a lot :(
Anyway. If anyone is looking to try a new card out, he costs all of $2 for a fancy foil one, and I do not think you will be disappointed. Not only is he good but he has so much style - expect a few compliments :cool:. I think I'm gonna swap a blood for a push and maybe up the dark ritual count to fit him into the deck more comfortably.
With regard to what people have been talking about ...
@Mr. Safety - would love to see a Bitterblossom list. Have you been playing it around? It does seem to have potential
@New Coffers - yup it's trash
@Burn - Collective Brutality is great. I think trying to lock them is the best way though; get the trinispheres and sinkholes in on them. Just gaining life is good but in the end you still lose because our clock is so slow and they can just topdeck into the win
@Heart of Kiran - nah. like kiwi said, that Lili ultimate is a threat we need to be presenting. and there's nothing else to crew it with.
@the Demon Saga - worth a shot maybe. not too excited to be honest. that demon will kill us, it turns around and bites. we can't afford to be hit by it and there are other better demons out there (see Necropolis Fiend :wink::cool:)
@EtwasSteIne - I cut my 1x Spirit a while ago and tbh I never looked back. He's cute as an infinite blocker and it's definitely fun to discard him to Lili. But people have outs to him (swords, DRS, burn to clear the way for a fatty, flying delvers, or just more creatures than you in elves). And he doesn't close the game fast. You asked about Tombstalker vs Fiend - I'm in the Fiend camp right now pretty solidly. In you list I think could cut Stalker and Spirit for 2x Fiend easily. Aside from that your list is so close to mine - I love it! How are you liking Infernal Tutor? Prefer it over Beseech? I guess it's a better topdeck... You wanted to add Ensnaring Bridge. If you look a few pages back you'll see my lists with 3x bridges. In the end I didn't like it too much. We don't have a lot of action from behind the bridge, unfortunately, so can't abuse it fully, and too often they'd just draw cards for a while, find a way to remove it, and then win. That said, it could be cool to go full on Monoblack stompy with Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors, Chalices... maybe run Ob Nixilis as a wincon... red has Blood Moon but we have Nether Void, Abyss, Chains...... hmm kinda want to build that. But it's a different animal I think (and also a lot of money :laugh:).
All week I was dreaming of different decks - maybe i'll play enchantress, maybe I'll play shortcake - but picked up pox tonight and it was like coming home. The Pox is a is a thing of beauty, my friends.
It's only a theoretical list, my main deck these days is Bg Mid-range Dark Depths. It would look something like this:
1x Nether Spirit
4x Bitterblossom
3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
2x Collective Brutality
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Dark Ritual
2x Fatal Push
Beseech Package
1x Beseech the Queen
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cabal Pit
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10x Swamp
Sideboard
3x Engineered Plague
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Pithing Needle
2x Collective Brutality
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Tombstalker
1x Diabolic Edict
I like Beseech the Queen quite a bit, it allows for a lot of singularly powerful cards to be available maindeck x2 (Maze, Edict, Bridge, Ratchet Bomb, Crucible, Bog.) It's more mana intensive to go that route, but it makes mid-late game Dark Rituals much better by powering out Beseech. Bitterblossom, if you can get it t1-3 can easily carry you to victory while you Hymn/Pox/Brutality/Wasteland your opponent or set up a Liliana lock. BB tokens and Nether Spirit for Cabal Therapy synergy and sideboarded Engineered Plague (which works better than Night of Souls Betrayal because it stacks, and Night is a non-bo with BB.)
Good thinking there on mid-game rituals. Myself I have seen them mainly as tempo cards to play powerful spells early.
Tonight's list.
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 Bloodghast
2 Tombstalker
4 nihilith
4 shrieking affliction
4 dark ritual
1 buried alive
4 Smallpox
3 liliana of the veil
4 Collective Brutality
2 liliana, the last hope
12 Swamp
1 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 marsh flats
Sideboard
2 massacre
4 Engineered Plague
4 surgical Extraction
4 pithing needle
1 lost Legacy
It is that, for sure. Making it relevant mid-game just makes it a little more versatile. Explosive t1-2 plays with Dark Ritual are great, but a slow grind with Ritual > Beseech > silver bullet is also very good. Dark Ritual #1 is amazing early, #2-4 are much worse. This way they allow some mid-game blasts even after Smallpox/Wasteland have left you with only 2-4 lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
BTW, that Buried Alive + 3Ghast is HOT. It's a quick way to assemble a fast clock for 3 mana + a land drop. If I wasn't operating on Bitterblossom I might include Buried Alive as a pseudo-combo for grabbing a fast clock.