[Primer] Elves!

I played against Infect in the legacy open trial on Saturday and was able to win in two.

Game one he was lined up for a turn 3 kill... but I lucked out and killed him on turn 2.
Game two a single Thoughtseize severely limited his clock and gave me time to establish a winning position.
Postboard the matchup feels little better because Thoughtseize and Abrupt Decay can really help you stave off lethal for a while.

The deck is fast and something to be aware of though.


On another note I went 4-0 in the legacy trial and 7-2 at StarCityGames Atlanta, winding up in 12th place.
There was a ton of Elves in the room.

I had been trying to find a Wren's Run Packmaster on site to play, but couldn't get one in time for the Trial. I threw a Ruric Thar in that slot instead and it was mediocre all weekend. Would've preferred the Packmaster I believe.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Several things:

1.) Landing Melira is good but FAR from a safe position. We still have no ways to interact with Blinkmoth Nexus. The standard list has essentially 4 cards to remove Melira (2 StP, Karakas+Crop Rotation) and can setup a kill in the air over a single turn.

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Idk why u care about nexus. Usualy a infect guy with melira on board would go to make usual damae. But nexus makes with melira no damage and also no infect damage. Is a full nothing.

Would do care about stp and karakas. But they have to side it in. That means 4 outs in all his deck.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/m...-inkmoth-nexus

even if infect becomes a regular deck at events are we really scared of it? yeah they can have explosive starts but so can we. cant see a reason to dedicate sideboard slots to it unless it hits other things in the process. just side in discard and AD's and hope you don't get poisoned before you can hoof them. lol play ruric, just block the inkmoth and let them take damage when they try to pump it

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Originally Posted by Togores

Would do care about stp and karakas. But they have to side it in. That means 4 outs in all his deck.

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Thanks for repeating what I just said. They have 4 outs to remove Melira and instantly kill you. That's highly threatening.

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Originally Posted by Togores

Idk why u care about nexus. Usualy a infect guy with melira on board would go to make usual damae. But nexus makes with melira no damage and also no infect damage. Is a full nothing.

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You got too caught up in pointing out the obvious part that we are all well aware of. Unfortunately this made you miss the part where I said that Inkmoth Nexus is so dangerous because it kills you in a single swing after removing Melira. Glistener Elf and Blighted Agent are less threatening as both can be Abrupt Decay'ed or even chump-blocked (Elf). Just make sure not to die to the Trampling damage from Berserk, if you can afford it.


Mind that we are talking about adding a silverbullet that is ONLY applicable in a single, fringe matchup. In order to justify that the impact must be THROUGH THE ROOF. It is not.

I recently played against Dredge and felt both helpless and lost. I lost to a turn 1 LED-fueled debacle and then g2 he was slow and I had a turn 3 NO that wouldn't be lethal (off by 2 points) with a Hoof so I went for Ruric, figuring it would slow him down severely. And it did, but he could still dredge every turn, get Narco chumps, get bridge tokens for more chumps and then overwhelm me with ichorids after a few turns. I was flummoxed. I obviously didn't get any DRS or Ooze to help out but still it felt like I was just going about things wrong. What's the ideal plan against them?

I made something of a tournament report from my MOCS win. It's in forum here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...868#post834868

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Originally Posted by PaulJordan

I recently played against Dredge and felt both helpless and lost. I lost to a turn 1 LED-fueled debacle and then g2 he was slow and I had a turn 3 NO that wouldn't be lethal (off by 2 points) with a Hoof so I went for Ruric, figuring it would slow him down severely. And it did, but he could still dredge every turn, get Narco chumps, get bridge tokens for more chumps and then overwhelm me with ichorids after a few turns. I was flummoxed. I obviously didn't get any DRS or Ooze to help out but still it felt like I was just going about things wrong. What's the ideal plan against them?

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I really don't have a lot of experience with that MU, but in the game you labeled as long, would it have helped to NO for Ooze?
Not that I played the MU a lot at all and it also depends a lot on their built, but a few 1/1s wouldn't kill you and since most lists have zero interaction we can end up with a board of Ooze+ enough mana to completely stop them in theory.

That being said, according to what you said you could've easily won if you'd drawn another NO or a Glimpse, so that seemed like bad luck?


Also, don't worry about feeling helpless. That's just what Dredge does game 1. There's close to no interacting with it. We're imo in the better spots for that MU anyways, since we do at least have something game 1 (Ooze and DRS, although very slow, can help) while also being fast. Most decks that can actually interact with Dredge G1 don't have the luxery of potential T2-4 kills :wink:

Though I'm sure there are others that can give more specific advice. Sadly I don't have a Dredge player to test with and I face it very rarely on MTGO.

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Originally Posted by GerMagic

I really don't have a lot of experience with that MU, but in the game you labeled as long, would it have helped to NO for Ooze?

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I honestly hadn't thought about it, so that's my fault. To answer the question though, I'm wouldn't have been able to activate it immediately and assume I would have died the next turn. I always kind of assume that, so maybe it was wrong. Thanks for the notion though.

I should also point out that at one point in that game I decay'd my own guy to exile 2 bridges (and take 6).

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Originally Posted by PaulJordan

I should also point out that at one point in that game I decay'd my own guy to exile 2 bridges (and take 6).

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That's part of your mistake. You should not be bringing in decay against any combo deck. Personally, I like to bring in discard when on the play to take out the relevant draw cards from their hand. On the draw, you should probably just bring in any additional graveyard hate you might have and try to race.

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Originally Posted by nudon

That's part of your mistake. You should not be bringing in decay against any combo deck. Personally, I like to bring in discard when on the play to take out the relevant draw cards from their hand. On the draw, you should probably just bring in any additional graveyard hate you might have and try to race.

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Yeah. Jarvis Yu and Ross Merriam said similar things on Twitter. Also, they're anti-Ruric overall. Basically, go for the combo if you can (being wary of firestorm), otherwise go the control route with graveyard hate. Hit ichorids / narcomoebas / bridges before dredgers. Bring in discard on the play in the hopes of stripping their only discard outlet. Laugh maniacally when you do.

how good is swan song vs infect? seems good to me... and it could help fix the miracles/combo matchups like in the past. I think maybe this is some tech worth revisiting.

thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Shagstaman

how good is swan song vs infect? seems good to me... and it could help fix the miracles/combo matchups like in the past. I think maybe this is some tech worth revisiting.

thoughts?

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Well, Countering the Berserk can delay their clock by several turns but I would not bet on beating combo with that. It's a bit suspicious if you keep a blue mana open at all times, no? Better give combo not the time to find protection or play around your Swan Song. Discard their combo pieces. Period.

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Originally Posted by PaulJordan

Yeah. Jarvis Yu and Ross Merriam said similar things on Twitter. Also, they're anti-Ruric overall. Basically, go for the combo if you can (being wary of firestorm), otherwise go the control route with graveyard hate. Hit ichorids / narcomoebas / bridges before dredgers. Bring in discard on the play in the hopes of stripping their only discard outlet. Laugh maniacally when you do.

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For the record, I never advocated bringing in discard against Dredge and I don't think it's good (even on the play) because it is only effective on turn 1.

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Originally Posted by Lantto

I made something of a tournament report from my MOCS win. It's in forum here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...868#post834868

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Thanks for the report, it is interesting.
As you said you find your way against miracles, can you say what are you boarding out? almost all your SB can go in except the cabals, so 13 cards OTP, do you keep the seize OTD?
And what do you board out? The whole glimpse package (4 glimpse, 3 Nettle, 3 heritage), 1 craterhoof, 1 mystic, 1 craddle?
It is what I would board out, but I will like to hear if you would play it differently?

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Originally Posted by dte

Thanks for the report, it is interesting.
As you said you find your way against miracles, can you say what are you boarding out? almost all your SB can go in except the cabals, so 13 cards OTP, do you keep the seize OTD?
And what do you board out? The whole glimpse package (4 glimpse, 3 Nettle, 3 heritage), 1 craterhoof, 1 mystic, 1 craddle?
It is what I would board out, but I will like to hear if you would play it differently?

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I sideboard out the glimpse package and trim down on a hoof and a natural order for everything except the therapies and the progenitus. I don't usually go for natural order, but its good to have to go over the top of entreat the angels I think.

I never thought about boarding out a cradle, but I guess that's actually a possibility when you don't try to combo. I might try that.

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Originally Posted by theross

For the record, I never advocated bringing in discard against Dredge and I don't think it's good (even on the play) because it is only effective on turn 1.

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My bad, I guess I misread that conversation. Limitations of Twitter, I suppose (or limitations of my cognitive abilities. You say tomato...). Thanks for clarifying.

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Originally Posted by Lantto

I sideboard out the glimpse package and trim down on a hoof and a natural order for everything except the therapies and the progenitus. I don't usually go for natural order, but its good to have to go over the top of entreat the angels I think.

I never thought about boarding out a cradle, but I guess that's actually a possibility when you don't try to combo. I might try that.

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I read Julian saying that NO-pro was a winning strategy for him (after a terminus), and I always played it. It won me some games, and maybe I lost some because NO and pro are not always good. Maybe I will try without.

Did you try NO-pro in the MU and don't like it?
Are the other users on the forum playing it?

Is it really less good since the printing of council's judgement that it's not worth it anymore in the MU?

And last question, is any of you keeping Ruric post-SB against miracle Philipp Schonegger-like (no karakas)?

I think the biggest issue is that u guys domt side enought. For miracles sdt. Usualy i see lists with max 2 artifacts of the od needle package. But the matchup gets really favorable when u play 2-2 of each. Cause is a so hight density wining card. That also they work vs other matchups lile sneak atack or storm. Even pithing an ant delta or so can be so huge.

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Originally Posted by dte

I read Julian saying that NO-pro was a winning strategy for him (after a terminus), and I always played it. It won me some games, and maybe I lost some because NO and pro are not always good. Maybe I will try without.

Did you try NO-pro in the MU and don't like it?
Are the other users on the forum playing it?

Is it really less good since the printing of council's judgement that it's not worth it anymore in the MU?

And last question, is any of you keeping Ruric post-SB against miracle Philipp Schonegger-like (no karakas)?

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I just save the NO for when I know it will win me the game. Otherwise its too big an investment and risk. For example I don't like ordering into a counterspells or a Top with mana for Terminus open. Progenitus has the same problem. Too many answers.

I think Julian has changed to taking out the NOs entierly against miracles now (maybe he should fill in, I might be worng), but so far I like keeping a small package in the deck for Entreat.

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Originally Posted by Lantto

I just save the NO for when I know it will win me the game. Otherwise its too big an investment and risk. For example I don't like ordering into a counterspells or a Top with mana for Terminus open. Progenitus has the same problem. Too many answers.

I think Julian has changed to taking out the NOs entierly against miracles now (maybe he should fill in, I might be worng), but so far I like keeping a small package in the deck for Entreat.

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Should be enough if your reduce the NO package to 1 Hoof in total as you can still fetch it with GSZ