19, this turnQuote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
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19, this turnQuote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Here is an unlikely, but doable scenario....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
Play Notes B R U Storm
LED, LP->DR - 3 0 0 3
IT -> Probe - 1 0 0 4
- Sac LEDs 4 3 0 4
Probe Top DECK: PIF 4 3 0 5
PIF - 3 0 0 6
FB: Probe Top DECK: CR 3 0 0 7
CR - 6 0 0 8
FB: DR - 8 0 0 9
FB: IT-> IT - 6 0 0 10
IT->ToA - 4 0 0 11
ToA - 0 0 0 12
*edit: sorry for formatting can't seem to get it right...
Play LED, Petal into Ritual (BBB floating, 3 storm)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
Cast IT and find Ponder cracking one LED for UUU (BUUU, 4 storm)
Cast Ponder cracking second LED for RRR and find PiF (RRRBUU, 5 storm)
Cast PiF, flashback ritual and Ponder, find and cast LED (BBB, 9 storm)
Crack LED for BBB flashback IT into Tendrils
bingo!, it was a CR in this case but LED works tooQuote:
Originally Posted by davelin
The IT->PN line seems to have ~3% to hit (hit PiF in a ponder + hit one of 6 LED/CRit in a ponder and some extra small cases like Pondering into a cantrip into probe into pif and the post-pif probe hitting LED/Crit, whereas the IT -> GP line has a bit under half of that (GP->PiF + GP->+1 Mana OR GP-> IT + GP->LED). Probing into probes into pif/infernal also adds chances. Any other routes?
Anyways, these ridiculous wins when playing towards your outs are among the best things in magic.
A thousand times this.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieW89
This is the first deck I've ever played with which I can be at four life, with some hugely overkill amount of lethal staring at me, and I can just topdeck a Swamp and win.
Maybe more crazy ones feat. GPs, I think the reasonable line to play to starts with a Ponder looking for PiFQuote:
Originally Posted by JamieW89
what to say, G2 I got LED and DR Therapied T1 and Pif looped on my T2, but it wasn't such cornercase as G1... opponent took it with a smile, I hope I haven't discouraged him from playing Dredge
After having done a fair bit of testing, I've had some ideas regarding Storm, including finally coming to a conclusion about Dark Petition.
#theweeklywars #8 - Storm
For those who haven't checked it out yet, #theweeklywars is a weekly series of articles where I note down some of my thoughts. When I learn something about Magic, it tends to end up in there sooner or later. The articles are nothing too formal, just strings of smaller ideas that are usually related through an overarching topic. I also have a full-length article on Storm coming soon, but I'm not sure when I'm going to be able to finish it. I will post it in this thread though.
Great read Jonathan. I have a question: with the format becoming less about counter magic and more about permanent hate it stands to reason that - as by a broad generalization - faster combo decks are better than slower combo decks*. So would this not speak towards playing a deck closer to TES rather than ANT?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
*Fast = less protection. Slow = more protection.
So for the longest time I had a TES deck that I never played, primarily used it as a place to keep my LEDs warm and occasionally loaned to friends desperate to play in a tournament. Then from the Secret Santa last year, I was very kindly sent 4 Beta Dark Rituals and 4 signed Cabal Rituals, so now I guess I have to sleeve up ANT. To do otherwise would be a great dishonor to this awesome gift. I looked an a number of lists that have done well and mashed them up into my preferred iteration. However I'm still unfamiliar with the deeper experience with the deck, and am fearful I could have committed some Storm faux pas and will look the absolute fool in a tournament setting. For reference the list I'd intend to run:
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Rebuild
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread of Night
1 Empty the Warrens
Any feedback, review or advice would be tremendously appreciated. Thanks.
I think this metagame pushes us from playing 3/2 to playing with Dark Petition and probably maindeck Ad Nauseam. Also, most importantly with Ad Nauseam, but maybe in general, we are not playing enough copies of Chrome Mox. Maybe two is too many already, but zero copies is almost certainly wrong. Regarding TES, I just don't see the benefit of Rite of Flame. Cabal Ritual provides such clean kills with Past in Flames, whereas Rite only makes Burning Wish less bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
But as I said in the article, I wouldn't be surprised to see a list more aggressive than Scherer's doing well, and that's already the most aggressive list since Mystical Tutor.
Storm is a highly contextual deck; none of the "big" Storm players run the same list as another. I think there are clear-cut rules for solving certain problems, but most players prioritise these problems differently. For example, in 2013-14, Pascal and I had 4 Abrupt Decay and 2 Krosan Grip, while most other players only had like 3 Abrupt Decay. Same with Dread of Night, it's been ages since I played without it, while most other players prefer less specific cards. On the flip side, I played way less copies of bounce spells other than Chain of Vapor, while many others have played stuff like Rebuild, Hurkyl's Recall or Echoing Truth for a while now.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
It's hard to build the deck terribly wrong and there are arguments for almost all versions. Just try out different things and see what works best in the context of your playing experience.
It's interesting; I was starting to get the same feeling regarding running faster decks if we're going to have to deal with people's mulling into T1 Chalice/Thorn.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
I've got no experience with TES, but I've finally acquired the pieces I was missing. I was thinking of giving it a try.
What strikes me as a problem is that both AnT and TES seem like, though they CAN win in the first couple of turns, against any kind of interaction—or with a hand that won't get us there quickly enough—it often takes longer. What's kept me from diving into TESting (sorry) has been that I keep seeing matches in which it gets a slow hand and can only pull off a combo at the same speed that we can. So I've got a question for your question: if countermagic is on a downturn and we're worried about MUD-style hate, why wouldn't we just go all-out and play T1 combo instead of either Storm variant?
I'm not trying to shoot down your ideas; I'm really interested in learning more about TES and its comparative strengths and weaknesses, both compared with AnT and with the suicide squad (Belcher, All Spells, PSI), especially if people have some experience trying a variety of these decks and others in the new metagame.
Has Empty the Warrens been faring well? A quick Ratchet Bomb would be a big problem, but if they don't find it, they'll be hard-pressed to stop us from gumming up the board without Batterskulls.
The problem with this way of thinking is that it is a massive overreaction to the meta. Blue decks still dominate Legacy, and both Miracles and Grixis Delver remain two of the most-played decks. That being said, I do think people need to have Empty in their deck now. I've advocated for Empty for a long time, but now is the time to add it if it's not currently in your list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
So far, in my testing with the 2 Petition list, I have mostly found myself tutoring Ad Nauseam due to a lack of red mana. There are other scenarios where you have to get Ad Nauseam because of graveyard hate or whatever, but that's the main reason. I'm not sure Empty over Ad Nauseam makes the deck faster.
That being said, the only matchup where you really want access to Ad Nauseam is Elves, so I don't think it's unreasonable to remove the card entirely.
The idea to make the deck faster and less resilient (to countermagic) is reasonable and in line with the way the metagame is evolving, but there's definitely a limit to how far it should be taken. If your deck can't beat one piece of countermagic, it has no place in Legacy. You don't have to beat much more than that anymore though.
Why not both maindeck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
There are limits to how many high CMC cards you can afford to play with Ad Nauseam, especially those that are terrible flips. Ad Nauseam with one each of Tendrils, Past in Flames and Empty already feels shaky without Mox, although I have not seen any real attempts to determine how far you can go.
It would be super interesting to do simulations with big sample sizes for different scenarios (cards left in your deck, life total, cards in hand / graveyard, Storm count) but constructing these scenarios is already so much work, not even counting for the fact that there dozens of combinations that lead to kills. Ad Nauseam is the most complex card I have ever played and nobody comes even close to using the card properly. I have started doing calculations to determine at which point you start revealing cards (cards that kill you when you reveal them vs. additional cards you can see with the cantrips you have) and that's already like 30 spreadsheets worth of data without being finished.
Oh, and I also want to start testing this, but there are not enough tournaments I can reasonably attend right now, maybe some of you guys can make something of it:
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dark Petition
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
Maybe the Rain should be another Mox; I really want to see how far the deck can be pushed into TES territory without having terrible mana and spells.
Empty is definitely a faster combo than Ad Nauseam but not necessarily a faster kill. This is important when discussing matchups like Eldrazi because you don't need to necessarily kill them turns 1/2, but rather you need to empty your hand before than can lay down their permanent-based hate. Empty is fantastic against Eldrazi because all you need is an LED, a Dark Rit, and an Infernal plus whatever else you have to up the storm and make 10+ goblins.
In the above list I think Rain looks very out of place, and Chrome Mox is poor and unnecessary without AN imo. Also I like 6 tutors, 2 PiF, 1 Empty, 1 Tendrils as the core (Grim is better than Petition if you run Empty).
I think Chrome Mox is the most underrated card for this deck. Also think Empty wants extra fastmana, and I'm definitely not running Rite of Flame. Mox and Rain are the only sensible options; both have their pros and cons.
What makes you think Grim is better than Petition with Empty and why does that one card make such a difference?
Either way, I'm not saying the list I posted is good. It's something I'd like to test but I won't be able to in the near future, so I thought I'd share it, maybe someone else finds it intriguing.
Wilson can expand here but Grim is better than DP in the scenario where you have the ability to get to 4 mana + LED (IMS, Dark Rit, Cab Rit or IMS, Dark Rit, Petal) because Grim can facilitate Empty in this scenario whereas DP can't be cast at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
Martin is exactly correct. There are a ton of lines that you need to analyze for the comparison between DP and Grim in terms of turn 1 Empty capabilities, but overall the numbers/options favor Grim Tutor in this specific respect. @Jonathan I like your decklist idea as a whole, and I think 7 tutors is worth exploring. I would try to vary the 3 DP numbers with either 2 DP, 1 Grim or 1 DP, 2 Grim, as multiples of either of those cards can be quite poor. Grim is a good tutor to flood on as long as you are flooding with other tutors that are not other Grims - it adds some nice power/flexibility to your combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute