[Deck] TMT – Graboids! aka Control Loam

red vs. blue

question, how good is burning wish? and, would mystical tutor be a better choice. sounds crazy i know, here me out:

if, you run blue instead of red you get mystical tutor and stifle. stifle, MD, is great for LD (on fetches), and its good for stopping combo, which you have alot of trouble with. if you cut red you lose burning wish, devastating dreams, recoup and seismic assualt.

- burning wish can be replaced by mystical tutor. tutor can find you mass removal like crime/punishment. so run more of those in place of devastating dreams. if can also find you stifle vs. combo, and it can find you raven's crime for the right matchups, and more LD, all for the cost of 1. sounds like a good deal to me at least.

- devastating dreams can be replaced by more crime and punishments. its just that crime and punishment doesn't blow up land. but you have alot of LD anyway. i'm not sure if that would be a good idea though. devastating dreams is good against aggro only. control will counter it and combo will just play around it with artifact mana and rituals anyway. if you wana kill a bunch of creatures anyway, you can always just use pyroclasm. how often do you really need dreams to resolve for more than 2?

- recoup is a cool trick but with mystical tutor you can find more LD instead of recasting it. recoup is kind of expensive anyway to play and if you are sacing wastelands and blowing your own land with devastating dreams how useful will it really be against aggro?
seismic assualt is cool but i'm not sure how it works in this deck so i'm not sure what could replace it.


with blue you also get access to daze and other countermagic. daze should be a great choice for this too, as your opponent will always have to play off of very few land, so daze will more likely not be a bad top deck later in the game like it usually is with other decks. also, chain of vapor could be nice too, as you want lands in your graveyard sometimes and it could be a great way to get a bunch of creatures off of the board that your opponent will not be able to replay with their lack of lands. also, remand is a strong choice. most people don't realize how powerful it is. remand is a time walk against aggro. it will buy you time to play your mass removal before the stomp all over you. against control, you can remand your own spells and replay them. against combo you can counter their business and then blow up their land while they are rebuilding.

also, whether or not mystical tutor winds up being a stronger MD choice then burning wish, it will open up 15 SB slots that you didn't have before. this could improve your game against alot. this will free up space to board in vexing shushers to protect your LD from control. it will let you run chalice in the board to help you combat combo (your combo matchup should be better anyway with 4 MD stifles and 4 mystical tutor for stifle). it will free up space so you can run graveyard hate like wheel of sun and moon or crypt or leyline of the void (which are all in your colors). you can even run expirate, more mass removal, whatever you want.



btw here are some cards that (seem like they could be synergetic in this:

- Thorn of Amythest (they can't really play spells if everything costs more)
- Ruination (great target for burning wish against control if you keep red)
- Trinisphere (would improve your combo matchup. and its a great lock if you can keep your opponent on few lands)
- Crucible of Worlds (its cool with wasteland obviously, and you put quite a bit of land in the grave)
- Spiketail Hatchling (would be nice if you run blue, especially when they have low land)
- Root maze (top decked lands dont get a chance to untap so you can blow them up)
- Sylvan library (draw engine)
- Dark Confidant (draw engine)
- Sensei's diving top (would be nice to find LD faster)
- Counterbalance (if you run blue, and top, this would be sick and improve the combo matchup massively)
- Braids (would work well with loam, and can make your opponent choose between creatures and land, if creatures, they can't win, you blow up their lands, if land, you have more mana each turn to deal with the creatures and tutor up answers)
- Pox (i guess it got cut though)
- Wasteland (why not 4? having problems with color?)
- Magus of the Moon (if you keep red, nice v thresh/landstill)
- Vexing Shusher (if you free up SB space for it, maybe by dropping red, you can still cast it with green)
- Cunning Lethemancer/Hypnotic Specter (great side in against control. if control doesn't find an answer for it, they are done. against combo its a nice way to lock them out of rebuilding as easily. both can bring the beats too, which is always nice)
- Tarmogoyf (just kidding)


also i think that you guys need an alternate win con besides worm harvest. maybe that was seismic assualt.. im not too familiar with the deck sorry. it would be nice to not lose to a single yixilid jailer or withered wretch.




just my thoughts. they are usually pretty out there as you can see.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

red vs. blue

question, how good is burning wish? and, would mystical tutor be a better choice. sounds crazy i know, here me out:

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The problem of cutting the Wish is that you'll die to hate. I really like the wish, it solves many problems against varies decks.

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- burning wish can be replaced by mystical tutor. tutor can find you mass removal like crime/punishment. so run more of those in place of devastating dreams. if can also find you stifle vs. combo, and it can find you raven's crime for the right matchups, and more LD, all for the cost of 1. sounds like a good deal to me at least.

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In my eyes, the Tutor isn't that good. You are just manipulating your library and drawing the card instead of taking it into your hand like the Wish does. With the Wish you are also drawing a extra card. The problem I have with the Tutor is that it's quite slow and you are normally drawing your tutored card in your next turn. I would rather play Intuition.

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- devastating dreams can be replaced by more crime and punishments. its just that crime and punishment doesn't blow up land. but you have alot of LD anyway. i'm not sure if that would be a good idea though. devastating dreams is good against aggro only. control will counter it and combo will just play around it with artifact mana and rituals anyway. if you wana kill a bunch of creatures anyway, you can always just use pyroclasm. how often do you really need dreams to resolve for more than 2?

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You're right, Dreams was always a shaky candidate for this deck. I'll try a few other cards in its slot.

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- recoup is a cool trick but with mystical tutor you can find more LD instead of recasting it. recoup is kind of expensive anyway to play and if you are sacing wastelands and blowing your own land with devastating dreams how useful will it really be against aggro?
seismic assualt is cool but i'm not sure how it works in this deck so i'm not sure what could replace it.

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I really love Recoup. It won me so many games that I've already lost that I don't want to miss it anymore :).
Actually Seismic Assault is the fast kill condition of this deck. You're just dropping it and burn your opponent down in 2-3 turns. It's also awesome against creatures, it's like a worser WoG ;).

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with blue you also get access to daze and other countermagic. daze should be a great choice for this too, as your opponent will always have to play off of very few land, so daze will more likely not be a bad top deck later in the game like it usually is with other decks. also, chain of vapor could be nice too, as you want lands in your graveyard sometimes and it could be a great way to get a bunch of creatures off of the board that your opponent will not be able to replay with their lack of lands. also, remand is a strong choice. most people don't realize how powerful it is. remand is a time walk against aggro. it will buy you time to play your mass removal before the stomp all over you. against control, you can remand your own spells and replay them. against combo you can counter their business and then blow up their land while they are rebuilding.

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It's an interesting idea to play countermagic, but with replacing red, you're attacking the deck's consistency which I would'nt offering for playing counters, but mayby I'll try it out.

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also, whether or not mystical tutor winds up being a stronger MD choice then burning wish, it will open up 15 SB slots that you didn't have before. this could improve your game against alot. this will free up space to board in vexing shushers to protect your LD from control. it will let you run chalice in the board to help you combat combo (your combo matchup should be better anyway with 4 MD stifles and 4 mystical tutor for stifle). it will free up space so you can run graveyard hate like wheel of sun and moon or crypt or leyline of the void (which are all in your colors). you can even run expirate, more mass removal, whatever you want.

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I don't really like the Shusher. It's a creature and it's the only target for the opponent's removal. Actually I'm running Chalices in the SB right now which were pretty awesome at the tournament on last sunday (I'll post my recent list on my first post). But overall, it's an interesting idea.

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btw here are some cards that (seem like they could be synergetic in this:

- Thorn of Amythest (they can't really play spells if everything costs more)
- Ruination (great target for burning wish against control if you keep red)
- Trinisphere (would improve your combo matchup. and its a great lock if you can keep your opponent on few lands)
- Crucible of Worlds (its cool with wasteland obviously, and you put quite a bit of land in the grave)
- Spiketail Hatchling (would be nice if you run blue, especially when they have low land)
- Root maze (top decked lands dont get a chance to untap so you can blow them up)
- Sylvan library (draw engine)
- Dark Confidant (draw engine)
- Sensei's diving top (would be nice to find LD faster)
- Counterbalance (if you run blue, and top, this would be sick and improve the combo matchup massively)
- Braids (would work well with loam, and can make your opponent choose between creatures and land, if creatures, they can't win, you blow up their lands, if land, you have more mana each turn to deal with the creatures and tutor up answers)
- Pox (i guess it got cut though)
- Wasteland (why not 4? having problems with color?)
- Magus of the Moon (if you keep red, nice v thresh/landstill)
- Vexing Shusher (if you free up SB space for it, maybe by dropping red, you can still cast it with green)
- Cunning Lethemancer/Hypnotic Specter (great side in against control. if control doesn't find an answer for it, they are done. against combo its a nice way to lock them out of rebuilding as easily. both can bring the beats too, which is always nice)
- Tarmogoyf (just kidding)

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- Thorn of Amythest: I would rather run Sphere of Resistance because I'm not running any creature.
- Ruination: It is a great target, but most controldecks are fetching on basics...
- Trinisphere: Mh, I'll try it.
- Crucible of Worlds: I've thought about it too, but I wasn't really impressed by it.
- Spiketail Hatchling: It's a creature...
- Root maze: It's nice, but will be blown up by Deed and disrupts yourself a little bit.
- Sylvan library: It costs you too many lifes.
- Dark Confidant: It's a creature and costs you too many lifes.
- Sensei's diving top: I'm already playing two which were really good.
- Counterbalance: Thought about it too, but I didn't want to cut red.
- Braids: I tested the card, but the problem is that it's a creature.
- Pox: It wasn't that good.
- Wasteland: I'm already playing 4 ;).
- Magus of the Moon: It's a creature.
- Vexing Shusher: It's a creature.
- Cunning Lethemancer/Hypnotic Specter: They are creatures.



Thanks for all your ideas, I really like if people are interested in this deck :).

ya i'm very interested.

and i would want people to be interested in my decks too if i made them. though i have and nobody is returning the favor.. lol

anyways, yeah i agree with everything you said.

here are a couple more ideas:

- Rancid Earth (you will have thresh quickly anyway making this, i think, a better drop vs. aggro sometimes then sinkhole. or maybe in addition to sinkhole?)

- Scragnoth (sick drop against landstill if you are having problems, can't remove it either)

- Ghostquarter (if you run crucible this can exhaust them of basics and eventually become a stripmine. :] )

- Pyroclasm (i really, REALLY, suggest this as at least a tutor target. at least for me, it often wipes the board against aggro, especially if you hit the forests with wasteland/sinkhole against those dam kird apes. :P o and it hits unthreshed Goose)

- Lightning Storm (if you have enough land in hand after loaming this could be a nice win con (ie. just 3 lands on it is 9 damage. :O unfortunately, you cant really tutor it up with burning wish. but if you have mystical tutor you can. but i understand that you don't want to run that)

- Magma Vein (GOD this could be really good in this deck. especially with loam, and even better with crucible)

- Lava Blister (Sinkhole at 1R? holy shit! if they take 6, cool you are going to kill them really fast with something else. i think its shaky but deserves testing)

- Volcanic Spray (i'm not sure how good this is, but its a removal spell with flash back. if it doesnt get rid of everything when you cast it on turn 2, then you can instead play at like a pyroclasm at 4 on turn 4 instead. its almost as if it has a built in recoup. :P deserves testing?)


EDIT:

SORRY. Scragnoth, is supposed to be Quagnoth. my bad. you can't remove quanoth, you Can remove scragnoth. haha. wow..
Scragnoth is jank.

Here are a few thoughts on your cards:

- Rancid Earth: It's okay, but in the first turns you haven't got Threshold and in the mid- and lategame it isn't that strong. Also, one Mana more for destroying a Land is inferior to Sinkhole.

- Quagnoth: Quite interresting, I think I'll test it, although it bad if it's goes to the grave.

- Ghostquarter: The problem of Ghostquarter is that it's inferior to Wasteland in the most cases. Maybe I'll try it as a one-of.

- Pyroclasm: It's a good card, but I can't find space in the SB for it.

- Lightning Storm: It may be a finisher, but it just does 2 damage per land and because of your low life you have almost the whole game, a few damages more through lands the opponent can throw in there could cause my death.

- Magma Vein: I don't know. It's quite hard sacrificing more lands as I do right now with this deck. Maybe I'll try 2-3 in the SB.

- Lava Blister: I'll test it, but at the moment it find Devastating Dreams better.

- Volcanic Spray: It's okay, but since Tarmogoyf or Nacatl it's quite hard to kill them just with 1 damage.



I've played a tournament with the deck. I cutted the 2 Dreams in the MB for 2 Explosives and 1 Gigapede for 1 Deed. The Deed was good, the Explosives were awful. Against Aggro the Dreams are better and against other decks you don't need the Explosives. Now I'll exchange the Explosives back to Dreams.
I finished the tournament with 3-2-0, winning 2-0 against 4c Landstill, Mono R Burn and Eva Green and lost 0-2 to It's the Fear (2x CB+Top) and 1-2 to 5c Zoo.

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Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste

Dreams was always a shaky candidate for this deck

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My testing of this deck has said the exact opposite thing. In some cases it feels like the deck is built simply to properly abuse this card.

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Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste

Actually, I think I can. The problem is that I would play them, if I have any space. Even sideboarding is quite hard for me, because I'm not always sure what to cut. What would you cut for the Chalices?

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I would lose the Crime/Punishments from the main along with the Deeds. Three deeds become 3 chalice, and I would suppose the 3rd top becomes a chalice too. Then Dostoevsky becomes EE.

Honestly, is there a reason to run Dostoevsky over EE? I mean, yea, Crime is useful to find a finisher one in thirty times, but the EE has about the same color intensity as the half you're actually going to cast, and can be cast over two turns which is actually a fairly big deal if you have a mox-less hand and you're staring down early goyfs.

Yes, cutting Deed raises the question of whether or not you have enough mass removal to handle aggro rush. In testing against pure aggro decks I've found that with 3 DD main (my version runs 1 more than yours) along with 4 wishes for either DD or Crime/Punishment (which is appropriate in this case because I can't wish for EE), and 4 smallpox I really don't have a problem against aggro.

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Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste

I really love Recoup. It won me so many games that I've already lost that I don't want to miss it anymore :).

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Seconded. Milling this lategame with LFTL feels like drawing an extra card.

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Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste

I'm not sure if your decklist is the way to go, but I don't think so. You're loosing to Crypts and other stuff really easy.

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I fail completely to see how my list loses to crypt more than yours does.
I run 3 LFTL, 3 Recoup, a Gigapede, and a Wormharvest as my Grave-dependent cards in the maindeck, and your list runs those exact same cards, sans one Recoup. The only possible way I could see my list being more disrupted by gravehate than yours is the fact that I run an addtional DD, and I clearly rely on the card more than you do. This might make me more dependent on LFTL, as a way to come back from my loss of card advantage due to DD.

I find this argument lacking, considering we both run the card, and in situations where I resolve a DD successfully, the tempo gained from it will probably equalize any disruption I feel from a crypt that has been played and activated after casting Dreams. If Crypt is on the board, I'm not casting dreams. I'm going to look for a way to force my opponent to pop it prematurely, namely EE at 0 or wish for artifact removal. This is all assuming I haven't dropped Chalice at 0, which I am rather fond of doing now that there's a fair deal of combo running around. Leyline falls under similar rules, as it needs to be in play before I actually care about it. If it hit's on turn zero, I'll admit that it's a pain in the ass. But that can't be any less so for your lists than mine.

The list I am currently testing, for refrence:


Lands (25)

4 Wasteland
3 Cyclers (2 green 1 red)
4 R/G fetch
4 G/W fetch
4 Tiaga
3 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Swamp

Other stuff (35)
4 Mox Diamond
3 LFTL
4 Burning Wish
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Smallpox
1 Worm Harvest
3 Recoup
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Seismic Assault
2 Sensei's
1 Gigapede

Sideboard (15)

Sideboard:

1 Shattering Spree
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Devastating Dreams
1 LFTL
1 Worm Harvest
1 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
1 Reverant Silence
1 Violent Ultimatum
1 Regrowth
3 Rapid Decay

Yea, sensei's and Chalice have uber nega-synergy. I really like the tops and the CotV main, however, so I keep them in. I feel this is the weakest part of my build so far.

No, I have never cast Violent Ultimatum outside of testing. If I ever pull it off, I will be thrilled to the core.


Also, is Rapid Decay not the sexiest thing you've seen in a while? Helps fight off grave hate by cycling to get back LFTL, and acts as it's own grave hate popping three cards for 2 mana. Only downside is that I cant mill it. Still, preference goes to the Decay in my book.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

My testing of this deck has said the exact opposite thing. In some cases it feels like the deck is built simply to properly abuse this card.

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You're absolutely right. After I took out the Dreams, I always wanted them instead of EE.

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I would lose the Crime/Punishments from the main along with the Deeds. Three deeds become 3 chalice, and I would suppose the 3rd top becomes a chalice too. Then Dostoevsky becomes EE.

Honestly, is there a reason to run Dostoevsky over EE? I mean, yea, Crime is useful to find a finisher one in thirty times, but the EE has about the same color intensity as the half you're actually going to cast, and can be cast over two turns which is actually a fairly big deal if you have a mox-less hand and you're staring down early goyfs.

Yes, cutting Deed raises the question of whether or not you have enough mass removal to handle aggro rush. In testing against pure aggro decks I've found that with 3 DD main (my version runs 1 more than yours) along with 4 wishes for either DD or Crime/Punishment (which is appropriate in this case because I can't wish for EE), and 4 smallpox I really don't have a problem against aggro.

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Actually I have thought about running Chalices again. Also I think that 6 massremoval are too much, so I'll test 3 EE instead. Chalices aren't just good against Aggro, they are also good against other decks.

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I fail completely to see how my list loses to crypt more than yours does.
I run 3 LFTL, 3 Recoup, a Gigapede, and a Wormharvest as my Grave-dependent cards in the maindeck, and your list runs those exact same cards, sans one Recoup. The only possible way I could see my list being more disrupted by gravehate than yours is the fact that I run an addtional DD, and I clearly rely on the card more than you do. This might make me more dependent on LFTL, as a way to come back from my loss of card advantage due to DD.

I find this argument lacking, considering we both run the card, and in situations where I resolve a DD successfully, the tempo gained from it will probably equalize any disruption I feel from a crypt that has been played and activated after casting Dreams. If Crypt is on the board, I'm not casting dreams. I'm going to look for a way to force my opponent to pop it prematurely, namely EE at 0 or wish for artifact removal. This is all assuming I haven't dropped Chalice at 0, which I am rather fond of doing now that there's a fair deal of combo running around. Leyline falls under similar rules, as it needs to be in play before I actually care about it. If it hit's on turn zero, I'll admit that it's a pain in the ass. But that can't be any less so for your lists than mine.

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The problem that you have with hate is that you're running a lesser count of LD. Running more LD means you can control your opponent for a longer time to find a solution which, in my eyes, is better for fighting against hate.

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Also, is Rapid Decay not the sexiest thing you've seen in a while? Helps fight off grave hate by cycling to get back LFTL, and acts as it's own grave hate popping three cards for 2 mana. Only downside is that I cant mill it. Still, preference goes to the Decay in my book.

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Actually I really like it. I'll test it next time.


After realizing that I'm running too many massremoval and too many lands, here is my recent list:

// Lands
3 [B] Badlands
3 [ON] Barren Moor
2 [A] Bayou
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [A] Forest (1)
1 [ON] Forgotten Cave
3 [IN] Swamp (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IN] Mountain (4)

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [TSP] Smallpox
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
2 [OD] Recoup
2 [EX] Seismic Assault
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TO] Devastating Dreams
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [B] Regrowth
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 3 [UD] Rapid Decay // Jund Charm


I took out Gigapede because I found it very fragile because of his 6/1-body. Also, running two Recoups with a total number of 21 Sorceries in the MB is a good choice I think.
As you can see, I want to play 3 Jund Charm in the SB. It could help with Aggro- and Graveyard-based-decks.


@The_Red_Pandas list:
Your list looks interesting, but I'm not really convinced if running such a low LD-count is so good. I really love LD-Effects and I don't want to miss them every time I play this deck.
Looking at your manabase I'm asking myself the question why you are running such a high G-landcount. I mean, in the MB you are just running LftL and Gigapede which need G (maybe EE too). Sure, you're just running 4-5 black and 13 red cards, but for me it would be no reason to run so many Duals and a 2:1-split of the Cyclelands which should be at least 1:2. Also I could imagine that your are pretty screwed without an basic Mountain if your opponent could get up an Wasteland-lock holding you back from red Mana.

Just a few thoughts on your list.

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Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste

@The_Red_Pandas list:
Your list looks interesting, but I'm not really convinced if running such a low LD-count is so good. I really love LD-Effects and I don't want to miss them every time I play this deck.
Looking at your manabase I'm asking myself the question why you are running such a high G-landcount. I mean, in the MB you are just running LftL and Gigapede which need G (maybe EE too). Sure, you're just running 4-5 black and 13 red cards, but for me it would be no reason to run so many Duals and a 2:1-split of the Cyclelands which should be at least 1:2. Also I could imagine that your are pretty screwed without an basic Mountain if your opponent could get up an Wasteland-lock holding you back from red Mana.

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I could probably test more LD effects, but in this deck, my gameplan has usually been to just completely demolish any sense of board position my opponent has through all that creature removal.

The manabase is mostly a function of wanting to cast LFTL as many times as I possibly can in the lategame, mostly to abuse Worm Harvest or Seismic. In reality, I should probably change it up a bit, but I've never had real problems with it. Wasteland locks are mitigated by the fact that I can LftL about as fast as they can wasteland. It sucks to have to do this, but eventually you end up with some artifact/enchantment removal, and a wasteland for their Ruins, and at that point you waste the ruins and blow the crucible on your turn so that they can't keep waste lock going. It's tedious, but most of the decks that have a wastelock aren't really going for the fast earlygame pressure, so you're fairly free to biuld until they hit the lock.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

I could probably test more LD effects, but in this deck, my gameplan has usually been to just completely demolish any sense of board position my opponent has through all that creature removal.

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But in most cases the (mass-)removals are just good against Aggro, against other decks they are handeling a Goyf or an Artifact, but that's it. When you are running more LD, you can prevent that these cards enter play, so LD does a little bit more I think.

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The manabase is mostly a function of wanting to cast LFTL as many times as I possibly can in the lategame, mostly to abuse Worm Harvest or Seismic. In reality, I should probably change it up a bit, but I've never had real problems with it. Wasteland locks are mitigated by the fact that I can LftL about as fast as they can wasteland. It sucks to have to do this, but eventually you end up with some artifact/enchantment removal, and a wasteland for their Ruins, and at that point you waste the ruins and blow the crucible on your turn so that they can't keep waste lock going. It's tedious, but most of the decks that have a wastelock aren't really going for the fast earlygame pressure, so you're fairly free to biuld until they hit the lock.

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I can see your points. Your version relies more on the synergy than mine does and it seems like that it kills a little faster (you're killing your opponents, mine scoop :P). I prefer the more controllish non-synergetical route in the first few turn to totally shut down my opponent and fight against hate. Also, with my manabase I haven't got any problems casting LftL 2-3 times per round in the lategame. I'm not running any Taigas because I need more double B than you do and because of the fact that I'm just running three cards in the MB which need one G to cast.

@Wasteland-Lock: You're probably right, but if you play against Aggro Loam, it could be really hard for you casting the Dreams or even the Assault if you haven't got a couple of Moxen. I like playing save so I'll keep my Basiclandcount at 5.

I see many builds playing Black. But I don't see much Pernicious Deed (that I believe is better than Engineered Explosives), Duress and Thoughtseize.

In my area many people run them, respectively (main/side) 3/1, 3/1, 4/0.

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Originally Posted by Luca_Girolami

I don't see much Pernicious Deed, Duress and Thoughtseize.

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They all suck with Chalice of the Void. Deed will destroy all your chalices ánd moxen, duress/thoughtseize will be countered by a Chalice@1

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Originally Posted by Luca_Girolami

I see many builds playing Black. But I don't see much Pernicious Deed (that I believe is better than Engineered Explosives), Duress and Thoughtseize.

In my area many people run them, respectively (main/side) 3/1, 3/1, 4/0.

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I think the deck you mean is Aggro Loam. The deck in the thread is an other deck, it plays very different.

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They all suck with Chalice of the Void. Deed will destroy all your chalices ánd moxen, duress/thoughtseize will be countered by a Chalice@1

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Actually I'm not playing Chalice anymore because it was really bad. It hasn't done anything, so I cutted it. At the moment I'm running a slightly different list; now I'm testing 3 Crime / Punishment in the main as the only massremoval, but I haven't too many results yet.

I was trying to develop a very similar deck back in August, but I didn't jump full fledged into the Control apsect of the deck, which ended up with me leaving me with one foot still in traditional Aggro Loam build, which I eventually reverted to.

I'm glad you kept on this, you definately picked up on some things I missed and have re-sparked my interest in the deck.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

My testing of this deck has said the exact opposite thing. In some cases it feels like the deck is built simply to properly abuse this card.

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/agree

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

I fail completely to see how my list loses to crypt more than yours does...

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He was comparing this vs. standard Aggro Loam, not his list vs. yours.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

Yea, sensei's and Chalice have uber nega-synergy. I really like the tops and the CotV main, however, so I keep them in. I feel this is the weakest part of my build so far.

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The previously mentioned Sylvan Library does basically the same thing top does for you each turn for free, while allowing another (expensive) option of drawing an extra card, has nice synergy with Dredge (the way it's worded you can dredge and it doesn't cost you the life), and dodges your Chalices.

Here's my take on a list:
Lands (25)
4 Wasteland
3 Barren Moor
2 Forgotten Cave
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tiaga
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain

Engine (15)
4 Mox Diamond
3 LFTL
4 Burning Wish
2 Sylvan Library
2 Recoup

Control (16)
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Devastating Dreams

Win (4)
1 Worm Harvest
1 Gigapede
2 Seismic Assault (doubles as control)

Sideboard (15)
1 LftL
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverant Silence
1 Chainer's Edict
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Serum Powder

An Alternate Sideboard Plan(15)
1 LftL
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverant Silence
1 Morningtide
2 Withering Wretch
1 Chrome Mox
2 Plateau
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ethersworn Canonist

With an average converted manacost of 0.8, did anyone considered playing Ad Nauseam as a 1 or 2 of? You should be able to pay 3BB and about ten life EOT to draw 12.5 cards and win the game.

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Originally Posted by leander?

With an average converted manacost of 0.8, did anyone considered playing Ad Nauseam as a 1 or 2 of? You should be able to pay 3BB and about ten life EOT to draw 12.5 cards and win the game.

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It would be hard to find considering its a instant if anything.

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Originally Posted by wolfstorm

It would be hard to find considering its a instant if anything.

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Volrath's Stronghold+Cycling Lands+Loam+Eternal Witness. Totally doable.

If you dredge shit up, Witness it back. If you dredge Witness, Stronghold it back.

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Originally Posted by chokin

Volrath's Stronghold+Cycling Lands+Loam+Eternal Witness. Totally doable.

If you dredge shit up, Witness it back. If you dredge Witness, Stronghold it back.

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But how often does this actually happen. You have to dredge up both of your cards that you run 1 of. It's like playing 2 land belcher, generally you aren't going to find either of those cards in the first 20 cards, and even if you do find one of them, on average it will take another 20-some cards before you find the other piece. It would take so long to get this "combo" that it just really isn't worth it. Not to mention it is a 3 card combo that doesn't cause an instant win (or even a significant change in game state necessarily).

The wishboard needs Tsunami or Boil(ing Seas ? I don't know, there are two versions and only one of them is a sorcery).

Also, why not Sylvan Library instead of Top to avoid the Chalice dis-sinergy ? You stated that it cost you too much life, but you can actually choose not to pay it and just use it like Top.

Other random ideas...

- Death Cloud (I don't know how much mana you usually have in the midgame, but double Smallpox in one card for five mana seems fine).

- The Abyss. I love this card in a meta with so many big creatures, though it can't get Nought and 'Goose. But it DOES get 'Stalker, Goyf, 'Vore, Crusher, Confidant, Angel, and all of the creatures in Faerie Stompy and Dragon Stompy. Sideboard material, probably.

- Exploration. Has some-one mentioned this already ? Incredible with Loam, allowing you to cycle through the deck AND play spells. Helps Recoup (and Death Cloud ; ) ).

Boil is an instant, so it's sub-par in a wish-board. Tsunami or boiling seas should work.

You will have to notice that Boiling Seas can be REB'ed/Hydroblasted, while Tsunami can't.

Therefore: Boil < Boiling Seas < Tsunami :wink: